Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2013

Hairy mellon

Hairy mellon wrote: »

Localgov.ie is now offline....

Try link to advice on si9.... Nada

Penn

Villain wrote: »

I did and I took it as either or scenario?

Are people saying the localgov interpretation is incorrect?

The issue is that in 2015 they're going to make it a statutory requirement that the builder appointed must be on the CIF CIRI register of builders, which self-builders wouldn't be.

But it's a fairly moot point anyway as the new SI will mean any self-builders after March 1st will have to appoint a competent professional (architect/engineer/surveyor) to be the assigned certifier, and there'll be f*ck all professionals who'd be willing to take on that role for a self-build project given how liable they'd be if something went wrong.

At the Engineers Ireland meeting about the SI in January, the question about self-builds was asked to someone from the department (someone under Hogan) who basically said that you shouldn't agree to be the assigned certifier if you don't think the builder is competent.

Hairy mellon

Penn wrote: »

The issue is that in 2015 they're going to make it a statutory requirement that the builder appointed must be on the CIF CIRI register of builders, which self-builders wouldn't be.

But it's a fairly moot point anyway as the new SI will mean any self-builders after March 1st will have to appoint a competent professional (architect/engineer/surveyor) to be the assigned certifier, and there'll be f*ck all professionals who'd be willing to take on that role for a self-build project given how liable they'd be if something went wrong.

At the Engineers Ireland meeting about the SI in January, the question about self-builds was asked to someone from the department (someone under Hogan) who basically said that you shouldn't agree to be the assigned certifier if you don't think the builder is competent.

That was martin vaughan of the department of the environment

He confirmed at the conference owners electing to be builders on their own project would be deemed non compliant at commencement

Cif director of housing and riai rep agreed with this interpretation. Confirmed at riai cpd last monday also.

jiminho

sydthebeat wrote: »

There is misinformation and contradictions all over the place.

Typical Irish legislatIon.

The doe tells people to disregard the wording and fire ahead as normal. ..... what a great shower they are altogether.

Could it hold up in court tho if it ever got to that stage? If the government says your allowed and not allowed........good aul Ireland!!!

4Sticks

Penn wrote: »

But it's a fairly moot point anyway as the new SI will mean any self-builders after March 1st will have to appoint a competent professional (architect/engineer/surveyor) to be the assigned certifier, and there'll be f*ck all professionals who'd be willing to take on that role for a self-build project given how liable they'd be if something went wrong.

I think lenders too will desert self builders who don't appoint Building Main contractors now.

Hogan has brewed the perfect storm to drown all self builders.

Hairy mellon

4Sticks wrote: »

I think lenders too will desert self builders who don't appoint Building Main contractors now.

Hogan has brewed the perfect storm to drown all self builders.

Great joe duffy quote from earlier "will the department go down to the high court with you?"

Villain

Penn wrote: »

The issue is that in 2015 they're going to make it a statutory requirement that the builder appointed must be on the CIF CIRI register of builders, which self-builders wouldn't be.

I don't see that mentioned in the legislation at all?

Penn wrote: »

But it's a fairly moot point anyway as the new SI will mean any self-builders after March 1st will have to appoint a competent professional (architect/engineer/surveyor) to be the assigned certifier, and there'll be f*ck all professionals who'd be willing to take on that role for a self-build project given how liable they'd be if something went wrong.

At the Engineers Ireland meeting about the SI in January, the question about self-builds was asked to someone from the department (someone under Hogan) who basically said that you shouldn't agree to be the assigned certifier if you don't think the builder is competent.

Money talks...... I know Engineers that would be happy to deal with self builders as long they pay them.

The whole idea is based on very weak standing imo, a builder who has tax clearance cert and insurance etc may not be competent at all or may have been in the past etc etc. I can see what they are trying to achieve but not sure it will work.

Gumbo

Hairy mellon wrote: »

Localgov.ie is now offline....

Up and running now.

http://www.localgov.ie

sydthebeat

Villain wrote: »

I did and I took it as either or scenario?

Are people saying the localgov interpretation is incorrect?

Just looking at it again.

No 5 and no 12 Contradict each other
.....

Hairy mellon

12 has been altered

Looks like first part of 12 now contradicts second part lol

Villain

sydthebeat wrote: »

Just looking at it again.

No 5 and no 12 Contradict each other
.....

Depends on how you read it, I read that FAQ as from the 1st of March a competent builder has to be nominated to carry out the works but a self builder may appoint himself or herself as that builder.

sydthebeat

Villain wrote: »

Depends on how you read it, I read that FAQ as from the 1st of March a competent builder has to be nominated to carry out the works but a self builder may appoint himself or herself as that builder.

That's very selective reading, as 12 goes on to define a competent builder.

So my reading of it is:
If you are a "competent builder" (as defined) then you can build your own home.

It certainly doesn't mean Joe soap can simply call themself a competent builder.

Villain

sydthebeat wrote: »

That's very selective reading, as 12 goes on to define a competent builder.

So my reading of it is:
If you are a "competent builder" (as defined) then you can build your own home.

It certainly doesn't mean Joe soap can simply call themself a competent builder.

Its states

one way of choosing a competent builder is to select a builder included on the Construction Industry Register Ireland (CIRI)

So what other ways are they, if there is legislation brought forward as someone else suggested that forces you to select from that Register then I can understand what you say. However my reading at present is a Self Builder can continue as normal.

Hairy mellon

read the code of practice.

look at SI.9 builder's completion cert.

self-building is no longer possible.

confirmed by:

1) cif
2) riai (monday gone)
3) minister (recent statements)
4)legal advice obtained by IAOSB
5) doe (martin vaughan on 17th january at iei conference)

all other statements are muddying the waters- fluff.

if you intend to self-build after 1st march be very careful: localgov.ie and local authority guidelines both state the completion certificate must be signed by builder.

have a look at IASOB european ombudsman complaint- legal input all there.

Happyman42

Why would they make distinction between the two?

sydthebeat

Villain wrote: »

Its states

So what other ways are they, if there is legislation brought forward as someone else suggested that forces you to select from that Register then I can understand what you say. However my reading at present is a Self Builder can continue as normal.

So.........

What makes a self builder competent?

Hairy mellon

doe interpretation (as per martin vaughan on 17th january and cop):

1) 3 years relevant building experience
2) tax compliant
3) preferably CIRI registered

Penn

Villain wrote: »

I don't see that mentioned in the legislation at all?



Money talks...... I know Engineers that would be happy to deal with self builders as long they pay them.

The whole idea is based on very weak standing imo, a builder who has tax clearance cert and insurance etc may not be competent at all or may have been in the past etc etc. I can see what they are trying to achieve but not sure it will work.

It was mentioned that the builders register would become mandatory in 2015 when this whole thing began. Sydthebeat also had a quote from Hogan a few pages back which confirms it

The owner will be responsible for ensuring that they appoint a competent builder – a register of builders, contractors and tradespersons known as the Construction Industry Register Ireland (CIRI) will be established on a voluntary basis for this purpose on or before 1 March 2014 and placed on a statutory footing by 2015 – and that they employ a competent registered professional to undertake the roles of designer and assigned certifier.

As for your "Money talks" comment, obviously that can happen regardless of the legislation. The few who do that though shouldn't in any way be taken as an example of who the legislation should cater to. To be honest, self-builders who pay off professionals to sign off whatever, and the professionals who would agree to it, deserve each other, especially given the increased liability they'd face after March 1st that they wouldn't have before. However, that doesn't have any effect on the vast majority of professionals who would never do it.

Villain

sydthebeat wrote: »

So.........

What makes a self builder competent?

So what makes any builder competent? There is no qualifications used there are just past projects that I can see, so say a Builder had a great group of contractors he/she used and they did everything to spec on a previous project now those contractors are gone and the builder is classed as competent and on the register but appoints contractors who don't work per spec.

The system is a joke imo, cowboy builders that manage to make it onto the register now have a way to legitimise themselves.

sydthebeat

Villain wrote: »

So what makes any builder competent? There is no qualifications used there are just past projects that I can see, so say a Builder had a great group of contractors he/she used and they did everything to spec on a previous project now those contractors are gone and the builder is classed as competent and on the register but appoints contractors who don't work per spec.

The system is a joke imo, cowboy builders that manage to make it onto the register now have a way to legitimise themselves.

There will be a register to show who is competent. You would have to predict that this registry well be policed and registration will be qualified.

So. ..... I ask again, why should novice self builder be allowed to consider themselves competent?

And let's be honest here, if the self builder wants to lay blocks or cut a roof, as long as the builder is happy to sign of their work, and the certifier is too, then they can still give input to their build.

What they cannot do however is sign a legal document telling all future owners that they were competent to say it was built in accordance with building regs.

Happyman42

Penn wrote: »

It was mentioned that the builders register would become mandatory in 2015 when this whole thing began. Sydthebeat also had a quote from Hogan a few pages back which confirms it



As for your "Money talks" comment, obviously that can happen regardless of the legislation. The few who do that though shouldn't in any way be taken as an example of who the legislation should cater to. To be honest, self-builders who pay off professionals to sign off whatever, and the professionals who would agree to it, deserve each other, especially given the increased liability they'd face after March 1st that they wouldn't have before. However, that doesn't have any effect on the vast majority of professionals who would never do it.

Be interesting to see how it all functions for the client when things go wrong, plenty of professionals in the chain of building Priory Halls and others.

Hairy mellon

extract off IAOSB website- nationwide lobbying campaign initiated by members. here is letter template:

link (hope ok mods):
http://www.iaosb.com/take action, join the campaign and stand up for your rights.html

Dear TD xx,

Re: Building Control (Amendment) Regulation S.I 9 of 2014

I am making this complaint as a self-builder and citizen of Ireland. I strongly fee my rights as an Irish and European citizen are being infringed upon with recent legislation. When the Building Control (Amendment) Regulation (SI.9 of 2014) comes into force on 1st March 2014 I will no longer be able to act as a Builder on my own house, co-ordinating other sub-contractors on the build. As this legislation requires an established builder, someone with at least 3 years similar building experience to undertake this role, the attendant costs of employing a main contractor will mean that I will not be able to undertake to build my own house. Contrary to numerous written statements by Minister Phil Hogan recent legal advice obtained by the representative body for self-builders the Irish Association of Self-Builders (IASOB) has confirmed that self-building, or undertaking the role of main contractor on dwellings, will no longer be possible under the new legislation.

The tradition of building one’s own home has been established in Ireland for generations. Acting as a co-ordinating main contractor an owner can make considerable savings on build costs allowing many the only opportunity to own a house. Self-built houses frequently are more cost- effective to build to a higher specification than many speculatively built offerings. The additional cost to build this using normal procurement methods would be over 12% more than if I was to adopt the role of main contractor myself. I will not be able to afford to commence building my own house as a result.

I believe the current legislation restricts my right as a European Citizen. A voluntary register of contractors under the control of a private company, the Construction Industry Federation (CIF) has been created to facilitate SI.9. The government specifically mentions this voluntary register (CIRI) in SI.9 and it is planned to introduce primary legislation to put this on a statutory footing. The completion certificate for the “Builder” in SI.9 states the builder’s completion certificate “must be signed by the director or principal of a building company only”. In effect this precludes owners such as myself from undertaking this role.

The representative body for self-builders the IAOSB have indicated approximately 17% of all housing starts may be abandoned due to the increased costs of buildings created by SI.9 on self-builders. We are the silent majority here with industry estimates of over 60% of all housing completed nationwide being self-built dwellings. This year the IAOSB suggest almost 1800 self-built house projects will be abandoned as a direct result of BC(A)R SI.9.

The structure of self-certification and codified roles inherent in SI.9 is defective and interferes with my rights as a European citizen to provide shelter in a cost-effective manner for my family. Elsewhere in the EU, the normal arrangement is a system of independent local authority inspections; in the UK there are a system of independent inspections and Independent regulation of the construction industry. Under this system I can operate as a builder and “self-build” domestic projects. There is no question that any self-builds in the UK or elsewhere in the EU are in some way deficient or less compliant than other forms of procurement. Self-building is a valid and essential way for citizens to undertake cost-effective construction of their own houses in a financially friendly way. The existing reinforced system in Ireland of self-certification and codified roles inherent in SI.9 is defective and interferes with my rights as a European Citizen to provide shelter in a cost-effective manner for my family.

For persons such as myself undertaking self-builds after 1st March the legal advice obtained by the IAOSB indicates we will be non-compliant, and as such will not be able to have our completion documentation validated by Local Authorities. As there is no mechanism in the regulation to obtain this local authority validation retrospectively this suggests self-builds, commenced after 1st March 2014,may encounter conveyancing issues and re-financing problems later on. This situation is of grave concern.

The current form of SI.9 and the proposed register of builders ends this tradition and infringes on the rights of Irish and EU citizens. I deserve better treatment by my government. I will not be able to afford to commence building my own house as a result of Building Control (Amendment) Regulation (SI.9 of 2014). I should to have the right to build my own home and provide for my family.

I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Regards

Xxx

Penn

Happyman42 wrote: »

Be interesting to see how it all functions for the client when things go wrong, plenty of professionals in the chain of building Priory Halls and others.

And that's exactly why this SI is being brought in; to try prevent the same occurring, and making those same professionals more liable if it does.

Personally and professionally I think the SI and CIRI are both positive steps and overall will result in higher quality workmanship and developments. However, the implementation, lack of consultation with relevant bodies and not allowing enough time to get it worked out properly has resulted in a bit of a disaster.

Villain

sydthebeat wrote: »

There will be a register to show who is competent. You would have to predict that this registry well be policed and registration will be qualified.

It's Ireland why would one have to predict that it will be well policed?

sydthebeat wrote: »

So. ..... I ask again, why should novice self builder be allowed to consider themselves competent?

You can ask that question and I can ask what makes someone a novice self builder?

The issue here is there are no qualifications its all based on past experience, if someone has self built 3 homes or 3 extensions then they are competent??

Hairy mellon

problem is register is voluntary and owned and maintained by a private company, the cif

the code of practice read in conjunction with SI9 which specifically mentione preferred and CIRI would indicate that membership of the CIRI register is defacto evidence of being a competent builder

entry requirements are vague, no indication of appeal procedure etc.

for eu builders soon when register become mandatory they will need to join

does not appear very transparent to be honest.

Happyman42

Penn wrote: »

And that's exactly why this SI is being brought in; to try prevent the same occurring, and making those same professionals more liable if it does.

Personally and professionally I think the SI and CIRI are both positive steps and overall will result in higher quality workmanship and developments. However, the implementation, lack of consultation with relevant bodies and not allowing enough time to get it worked out properly has resulted in a bit of a disaster.

Priory hall wasn't self build.

If there was a culture of professionals taking responsibility in this country I would be all for this.
Instead of dealing with cowboy builders and developers first what we have here is the ordinary joe soap stopped from building a home the only way they can.
Do any figures even exist for serious problems in self builds?

Penn

Happyman42 wrote: »

Priory hall wasn't self build.

If there was a culture of professionals taking responsibility in this country I would be all for this.
Instead of dealing with cowboy builders and developers first what we have here is the ordinary joe soap stopped from building a home the only way they can.
Do any figures even exist for serious problems in self builds?

I know it wasn't self-build, but that's my point; the speed at which they're trying to implement this legislation and not enough consultancy with the relevant bodies has resulted in somewhat of a "catch all" legislation designed to cover all instances. Their legislation to prevent developers building and professionals signing off shoddy work means self-builds fall under the same legislation, which inadvertently kills self-builds.

Happyman42

Hairy mellon wrote: »

problem is register is voluntary and owned and maintained by a private company, the cif

WHAT? You are not serious?

I can pay 200 euro year to the Guild of Master Craftsmen..without them ever coming near me and call myself a 'craftsman'. Is this going to be the same kind of thing..what checking will they do?

Hairy mellon

have a look at cif website....

Penn

Happyman42 wrote: »

WHAT? You are not serious?

I can pay 200 euro year to the Guild of Master Craftsmen..without them ever coming near me and call myself a 'craftsman'. Is this going to be the same kind of thing..what checking will they do?

There is regular checking, it requires annual renewal, and there is a requirement for CPD. In fairness, the CIRI in theory sounds very extensive in what's required for joining and continued membership. How it works in practice will be the key.