ATC Student Programme 2013 *Warning post 195*

noahcian

hi, trix123. do you feel like selling a copy of it? thanks very much

trix123

jeez ill look for it, I have it on my desktop, will look for dvd, as I got it last year when I was going for NATS, then got call for paper and pencil in Feb but hold now.
i

trix123

I have 2 dvd's on my desk top, is there any way I can send them onto ye? by email? would be handy you'd get them by tomorrow??
if there is let me know asap, they're sitting here looking at me...
I know we are all in it together and its "a competition" etc but to be honest, if I am good enough Ill get through to the DART regardless of who I help. And these are not for the DART as far as I know.
But have the heading, angles, etc

Mr Pseudonym

Thanks for the info on Nats, Trix123.

noahcian

yeah. Thank you very, very much. can send u my email? Do i post my email here?

smallfort

I never did LC physics managed to get through to next round though so I'm delighted!!!
Just wondering if trix 123 made it through or can you apply or are you already an ATCO??
Does anoyone want to tell me what exactly this FEAST is??i'm a bit worried...

Kayad

I know the tests seamed a bit off the wall but having completed the selection process up to the final interview with 3 other ANS ( eurocontrol, sky guide & nats) its not a whole lot stranger than any other one.

smallfort wrote: »

Does anoyone want to tell me what exactly this FEAST is??i'm a bit worried...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FEAST_test

Funny enough wikipedia gives a pretty good description of the FEAST test. As I've already done it within the last 2 years I don't think I've to sit it again.

Todd Toddington III

trix123 wrote: »

I think the whole thing is a farce. The aptitude is completely discriminatory and why all the secrecy? The mechanical tests should be about assembling shnpes labelled and unlabelled not physics, NATS give sample papers and answers.
Also for Radar you obviously need to be able to very quickly discriminate between the differences in height and distance between planes which is what is tested in the aptitude with NATS this was not done in Ire. The job of an ATC is the same in all countries so why such discrepancy in the testing?? Why when I rang HR they told me that if I qualified in NATS that I couldn't come over to Ire?? That is illegal. We are in Europe now so like any profession, where you trained once in Europe it should be recognised and is obviously standardised. I don't get why Ire make things soo difficult for people...I mean the air traffic over here is nothing compared to Europe so why is the testing so difficult and more importantly so unrelated to the actual job?

You really are talking a load of bollix about a subject you clearly have a poor understanding of. The aptitude is discriminatory against people who are as a rule not suited to the job ffs.
Being able to read a radar screen correctly is a skill that only a few can do in busy traffic so y risk wasting training resources?
The reason you cant just move from England to Ireland is that all airspace has a type rating, you would need to do a conversion course. Plus the fact you need minimum five years under your belt to be considered experienced means you are no good to anyone until then.
Irish airspace is fluid, sectors change as traffic changes as we have an ocean interface and oceanic tracks change daily due to the jet stream. We, as well as the Portuguese have no routes in our skies meaning aircraft get direct routings to exit points and traffic levels do get quite complex at times, don't belittle what we do by saying traffic is not comparable to Europe, it is per sector
The assessments are difficult because, as someone else put it quite well, "this is not a video game"

adamski8

trix did you not get through, very bitter style posts. The exam had nothing to do with physics as is studied in JC and LC just more basic cop on imo! And at that mechanical reasoning is only 1/4 sections. So anyone that didnt get through cant blame that alone.

i thought it was a very very easy exam only time being the limiter. If anyone felt different id be very concerned if they were in control of air saftey

Todd Toddington III

trix123 wrote: »

The air traffic in UK sorts the men from the boys in Ire, but go for it, nothing to lose, and so much opporureity to travel and move up the ladder, whereas in Ire it is really who you know.. And I know that for a fact..

Again you are talking through your arse. Not one of my classmates got through because they knew someone.
What opportunities are there to travel? The only places hiring are in the Emirates and while the money is good there is no job security re a medical condition ~ losing your licence ~ and no pension.
And that macho bull**** about sorting men from boys? That crap is a bit old school ffs, there are people on these planes, it's not a big dick competition. Think you may want to look else where for a job bucko

Contrails

Todd Toddington III wrote: »

You really are talking a load of bollix about a subject you clearly have a poor understanding of. The aptitude is discriminatory against people who are as a rule not suited to the job ffs.
Being able to read a radar screen correctly is a skill that only a few can do in busy traffic so y risk wasting training resources?
The reason you cant just move from England to Ireland is that all airspace has a type rating, you would need to do a conversion course. Plus the fact you need minimum five years under your belt to be considered experienced means you are no good to anyone until then.
Irish airspace is fluid, sectors change as traffic changes as we have an ocean interface and oceanic tracks change daily due to the jet stream. We, as well as the Portuguese have no routes in our skies meaning aircraft get direct routings to exit points and traffic levels do get quite complex at times, don't belittle what we do by saying traffic is not comparable to Europe, it is per sector
The assessments are difficult because, as someone else put it quite well, "this is not a video game"

My favourite thing about these forums; when people chip in who actually have a notion. Thanks for the bit of insight Todd.

andy_g

Trix123 please do not offer any resources to cheat the system continuing to do so you risk a ban!
Same goes to anyone offering to get things from any user to cheat the system will receive a forum ban.

If you are willing to cheat you are risking lives in the future.

Mr Pseudonym

Is the moderator aware that there is an extensive training period followed by examinations before one qualifies? I think it is something of an over-reaction to suggest that lives could be endangered by cheating at the second stage of a five stage application process.

I also don't think that the purchasing or sharing of a freely available product could ever be construed as cheating.

Was Todd Toddington's berrating of Trix123 really appropriate? Any regular user of forums will know that a lot of what is posted is likely to be either false or what one believes to be false. I struggle to think of any comment that would see me react in a similar fashion.

trix123

I am not offering resources to cheat the system!!!! Good God almighty!! I am shocked and horrified at the level of abuse and bad language used against me! If ye want to curse fine, I can too, and say Bollocks with proper spelling.

You cannot "cheat" unless I gave you the actual feast test and that is NOT what that DVD is about... as I said NATS give you sample papers and here nothing..Why??? There is no explanation. It is ridiculous, I am qualified in Guidance and Counselling so know about that Pearson and what is done in other countries. I wasn't told how we got through, yet another big secret, perhaps it is an average of 4? Then people could do well on all 3 other tests..I don't know

I do know about ATC and I have been in radar rooms and the tower in Heathrow and Paris and Liverpool and Ireland many many many times!
I know Mech R was 1/4 ...


The computer simulation is available to buy...Everyone and their dog is aware of it. There are HPAT courses and other similar courses to help desensitise people to that type of questions that come up and Feast is no different. Like I said it is not for the DART and it is not cheating.

After the exam there were people who spoke about what exactly came up in the exam. It makes no difference as you can either do the test or you can't. So is that cheating???? Does it matter when there are about 5 other tests to take????

I am not belittling the job of controllers here, listen to what I said, the traffic in Europe is massive compared to here,

I wasn't talking about the 5year experience I know all that but I have the email to prove what was said up in Dublin. They said and I quote , if you qualify in UK you need to resit the tests from the beginning from the aptitude and feast like everyone else... Unquote!!!

I have physics as I already said, but there were 5 other women who didn't and they felt it was discriminatory as they had no clue about angles and microwave and metal conductivity. That is what they said to me after the test.


My father in ATC and travelled loads and another one of my relatives also did.

Like I said you can either do the Feast or you can't , offering the DVD's from reputable training companies is not giving anyone a head's up at all, I was trying to help people it is in my nature, it is part of my job, and I think it wouldn't make a difference to anyone if we all got the dvd as on the day of an exam there are other extraneous factors that can hinder a person to pass. But if I can't for fear of getting a ban and to all other people who contact me or PM me, then I can't unfortunately. I was going to give them free, makes no difference to me. Just sorry I couldn't help.

eurofoxy

its not cheating, the only one being cheated is yourself, the FEAST test is designed to test your aptitude for the job and to handle lots of inforamtion in a stressful environment, if you practice this you can and will fool the test, however this lack of aptitude will be found out once you start actual training, so which is worse getting a mail from the iaa saying you dont progress or failing after spending 6 months of unpaid training chasing a dream which will never come to fruition?

And stop talking about how nats do things, its actually the nats system that is antiquated, the feast test was designed from the ground up and is used by most ansp's accross europe to test potential candidates.

trix123

Nothing can prepare you for the job!! Even the training is very different to the job with actual people, so lets get that straight.
As I said before, if the thread was read, I know a lot of people who trained years ago, in the "antiquated" way and got on the job training and had excellent safety record. They love the job and behaved themselves. I was in radar and saw atc's texting on the job! And much more besides. So giving someone the FEAST is not cheating in any way what so ever. Why do people do mock exams???? Same principle

trix123

NATS is definitely not antiquated nor is any other country in Europe. They work very very hard and as I said, they rightly do not allow anyone to the paper and pencil if they cannot visually discriminate within 7 or 9 seconds. Nothing antiquated about that, with an excellent training centre too. Very impressive. And yes I saw Shannon have been there loads of times.

Top Dog

trix123 wrote: »

whereas in Ire it is really who you know.. And I know that for a fact..

trix123 wrote: »

My father in ATC and travelled loads and another one of my relatives also did.

If your father is/was in ATC here in Ireland, then you should know that at this stage there's no room for nepotism in the recruitment. This job is looking after peoples lives (while they travel blisfully unaware that their safety is in your hands) its certainly not the sort of thing you can offer to Sean because his dad was an ATC before him. Either you have what it takes or you don't.

I must admit trix - you have me somewhat confused. You're trashing the whole recruitment process, yet you're carrying on with it? Knowing that this process is being run by your potential future employers?

trix123

Like I said previously could go to NATS yet, been accepted at final stage and they pay for flights on the job training and for my family to visit me, so no bother to me where I go to be honest. Its all the one to me. 40 min- 60 and in Heathrow quicker than going to Cork or Dublin or Shannon depending where you travel from.


Well I wont say anymore on that score, about jobs, enough said, I know too much put it that way.

I was genuine about helping people and genuinely know from being an educator and talking to Controllers that the dvd is not cheating. People who really want the job would benefit from just getting a taster, it is not the FEAST and to be honest I am shocked at the anger of trying to help people. Its like the LC where kids won't even work in groups for fear of one upmanship or the library where they tear pages out of the books! Madness. There are so many stages to fully qualify and be licensed that a dvd on FEAST is not a big deal at all. Just cannot fathom the outrage on here about it. In UK they all use dvd's (ones I met) to prepare.

I have a great job and know I will pass the interview and medical for NATS and on my father's advice and my friend who is now in ATC, I might go to NATS for opportunities that allow me to get promotions etc that I wouldn't get here. So I am not fussed either way.

Top Dog

trix123 wrote: »

Like I said previously could go to NATS yet, been accepted at final stage and they pay for flights on the job training and for my family to visit me, so no bother to me where I go to be honest.

Wow! Thats certainly very different to the terms over here alright! :eek:

Is the starting salary lower then to balance things out?

trix123

They don't pay for your paper and pencil test, but after that they pay for all of the other flights over for the other tests and I can't remember how many but 2 I think trips for your family to visit, ie some Irish bring family over for Christmas or New Year.
They pay for on the job training and if you work outside of the radar training is very short though not paid as much, but you are guaranteed a job and from people who work over there including my dad, they are very well treated and the recruits and trainees get well treated also. He enjoyed it a lot, loved it, the fast pace etc... he would have moved only for family reasons.
Yes look at NATS, like the teaching and medicine, if they don't pay people, they will emigrate, why bother if you can flourish abroad.
I will try and copy the link on here if I can, I have an email from them too with all the details, thought it was about 18k for training, but that was last Jan 2012 so not sure, but sure, look, they are not even paying them here so anything is a bonus!

Top Dog

I looked into NATS a number of years ago, but my wife wasn't thrilled at the idea of moving abroad so I kind of forgot about it then. Was working at the time so it wasn't that big of a deal.

Maybe I should re-consider that now with the current situation here.

trix123

Def you should, its a great opportunity for you and if you try at least you will know if it is for you.

Yes that is my dilemma too, of I go, I know I won't come back, you make friends and get settled into a routine over there.

notharrypotter

NATS is hiring?

Top Dog

trix123 wrote: »

Yes that is my dilemma too, of I go, I know I won't come back, you make friends and get settled into a routine over there.

Staying over there wouldn't bother me too much. Already have plenty relatives over there, fairer motor tax, better road network, closer to mainland Europe

the beerhunter

notharrypotter wrote: »

NATS is hiring?

according to an insider, nats is attempting to reduce controller numbers as an externally-imposed cost-cutting requirement.

PinOnTheRight

NATS don't cover travel expenses for Stage 1 (pencil tests) or for Stage 2 (FEAST sitting). They do reimburse costs for the interviews, but only to a certain extent. The training salary at college is now £10,000 and a small living allowance. They do not fund trips for your family to visit while training. Fairly certain they don't cover expenses for family to visit when your posted somewhere either.

trix, you should just go for NATS. You have a real chip on your shoulder about the IAA, which may or may not be justified. You're also singing high praises about NATS and you seem to be in there already...so what are you waiting for?

smallfort

So........... if you do look at these dvd's........ and no one knows....... but you,is that still cheating......:cool:
Cos far as i can see the whole moch exam thing is a good point,surely you cannot increase aptitude above your own personal ability,and to go in below your best is robbing yourself of the chance of performing,cos if so then i guess athletes who practice for races are cheating too.............they should go in after being to burger king or something.
Am I way off here???

urajoke

I think he may live under a bridge.

NATs certainly don't pay for family to come visit you. In the Middle East they pay for you to fly home twice a year.

trix123

NATS pay for 2 flights during your training so if you training for 2 years in radar, the pay for 2 flights for 2 people. True. You get paid for all flights over and back for your test excluding paper and pencil and they pay for your training.
Unless things have changed since 2011/2012 I still have the email so I am not sure where you are getting your information from but that is what was sent to me.

Yes I agree with small fort preparing for an exam is not cheating