ATC Student Programme 2013 *Warning post 195*

beazee

Heads up for those who are interested.

Just got an email from IAA they will be advertising for places on their next Student Air Traffic Controller Programme Training Course from Thursday, 11th of April.

Online only applications are being accepted until 12 noon on the 25th of April. Good luck!

Warning posted in post 195 http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84829431&postcount=195

Please read.

slonglat

I might apply but have you looked at the pay and conditions?

It has been reduced to 32k per year. There is no pay for the 2 year training period so you'll have to support yourself too.

Capri86

I got the letter today. I forgot I had my name down to be informed a very long time ago. I am in Aircraft Engineering for a good while now and don't fancy starting all over again. Shame, I would have loved to do it a few years ago.

jeepers101

slonglat wrote: »

I might apply but have you looked at the pay and conditions?

It has been reduced to 32k per year. There is no pay for the 2 year training period so you'll have to support yourself too.

Source?

beazee

Do I get paid while participating in the Student Controller Programme?

Yes, all students receive an annual allowance while actively engaged on the training programme.

Do many people apply for the Student Air Traffic Controller programme?

When the Authority advertised in 2010 we received 4,134 applications for 24 positions that commenced 24th February 2011.

The Authority reserves the right to change the selection process and add or delete stages as determined by the IAA.

https://www.iaa.ie/index.jsp?p=404&n=405

That's 171 people to beat in order to be offered a position.

Contrails

slonglat wrote: »

I might apply but have you looked at the pay and conditions?

It has been reduced to 32k per year. There is no pay for the 2 year training period so you'll have to support yourself too.

"Do I get paid while participating in the Student Controller Programme?

Yes, all students receive an annual allowance while actively engaged on the training programme."

https://www.iaa.ie/index.jsp?p=404&n=405

jeepers101

Looks to me like a shameless attempt at putting off the competition

adamski8

i never got an email. Sent my interest back in january. Is anyone sure the pay is so low now?

beazee

no one is

Pilotdude5

What was the starting pay before?

To put it in perspective, a HSE Doctor starts on 31k now.

beazee

€51k +27% shift allowance

Pilotdude5

beazee wrote: »

€51k +27% shift allowance

I have made a terrible career choice.

adamski8

beazee wrote: »

€51k +27% shift allowance

Yeah thats a huge drop if true anyway. It might be true along with the unpaid training as they havent released any info. The poster who replied saying training is paid for is only quoting the previous training programmes.

nosedive

I'm afraid the news about the reduced salary is true, as is the information about there being no training allowance.

Advertisements will be public tomorrow - you'll see for yourselves!

nosedive

Absolutely - if you're interested, apply. Education isn't really a concern - ATC is an aptitude and the recruitment process will determine whether you have it or not.

adamski8

nosedive wrote: »

I'm afraid the news about the reduced salary is true, as is the information about there being no training allowance.

Advertisements will be public tomorrow - you'll see for yourselves!

Why would there be such a huge reduction? Surely its still public sector. I know everyone starting post 09 starts on a lower salary, somewhere around 10% but thats nearly a 40% reduction!

Names

adamski8 wrote: »

Why would there be such a huge reduction? Surely its still public sector. I know everyone starting post 09 starts on a lower salary, somewhere around 10% but thats nearly a 40% reduction!

The IAA is not public sector & is not funded by the state in anyway

adamski8

Names wrote: »

The IAA is not public sector & is not funded by the state in anyway

Oh well then i guess fair enough. Guess there will be fewer applicants this time round anyway. Bit tough that there will be no training stipend. 2 years is a long time to go within an income. Id say you cant even claim welfare due to being a student?!!

notharrypotter

I found reference to EU educational standards no805 of2011.

hold at least a diploma granting access to university or equivalent, or any other secondary education qualification, which enables them to complete air traffic controller training;

So it’s Leaving Cert standard here

"I might apply but have you looked at the pay and conditions?

It has been reduced to 32k per year. There is no pay for the 2 year trainingperiod so you'll have to support yourself too."

whare is this posted?

omega man

Names wrote: »

The IAA is not public sector & is not funded by the state in anyway

Yes no funding but a state sponsored organisation (semi state).

Tenger

beazee wrote: »

€51k +27% shift allowance

Thats a drop from what was advertised 2-4 years ago....(during the last recruitment campaign)

Stormhawk88

Note on Student Controller Programme

No payment will be made to Students while undergoing training.

Successful applicants will undergo a Training Programme of approximately 2 years duration, based initially at the Authority’s Training Centre at Ballycasey, Shannon, Co. Clare and subsequently at one of the three State Airports (Dublin, Shannon and Cork)

If you successfully complete the Programme, including attainment of an ICAO rating (licence) you may be offered appointment as an Air Traffic Controller. Salary for Air Traffic Controllers is based on an incremental scale.

The basic salary for an Air Traffic Controller starts at €32,500 rising over a 20 point annual incremental scale to a current maximum of €88,540. Air Traffic Controllers also receive a shift allowance for working unsocial hours. Salary is payable by credit transfer less standard PAYE, Government Levies and PRSI deductions (Class A).

Where you accept an offer of employment as an ATCO with the IAA and you subsequently serve for less than 7 years you will be required to repay training costs and this will form part of your contract of employment.

Where following completion of your training you receive an offer of employment as an ATCO with
the IAA and you refuse the position you will be liable to repay training costs of €190,000.

Students will incur no liability for training costs in the following circumstances:

- Where they have their training contract terminated by the Authority
- Where Students terminate their training contract prior to the achievement of a rating
- Where Students are not offered employment with the Authority


In the event of you being offered a position on the Student Controller Programme, you will be required to confirm your acceptance of the salary and other conditions applying to the post of Air Traffic Controller with the IAA, in advance of your participation on the programme.


NB THE ABOVE IS FOR INFORMATION ONLY




Updated 10 April 2013




Link: https://www.iaa.ie/index.jsp?p=148&n=149

jeepers101

Can't see any reference on that link to salary or training allowance

Edit: See it now at the end of the .doc download. Bummer.

beazee

Stormhawk88 wrote: »

No payment will be made to Students while undergoing training (...) of approximately 2 years duration, based initially (...) at Ballycasey, Shannon, Co. Clare

Well... good luck to all applying.
A student programme thus they are looking for students.

funkhouser

beazee wrote: »

Well... good luck to all applying.
A student programme thus they are looking for students.

It's a change to a long established and international practice. You are guaranteed a degree in a third level course once you work hard and even if you fail or switch degrees the cost isn't huge, you can also study locally at third level.

This is a different situation. There is a 75% pass rate for this course, roughly. 6 out of every 24 will fail. Eating through savings, either yours or worse - someone else's, 30k say, only to fail at the end would be a lot to take. And seeing as they are effectively charging you 190k for training I think the least that should be done is to provide students with subsistence. You can't work part-time while training, you also need to eat well and be able to enjoy life a little bit outside the course. You'll be less likely to be able to do that now and it can only affect negatively the average performance.

It wouldn't be so bad not getting subsistence while training if you were going to be earning decent money coming out but 32k is extremely low by international standards. Search others forums to see what the going rate is. 32k isn't it. At least not in Europe, it's a long way short.

This development is very disappointing. The quality of candidates and thus controllers will likely be reduced. Yes, they will have to pass the rating but the conditions now make it a job heavily skewed in favour of locals and those from wealthy families. A great swathe of candidates will now be excluded.

Best of luck to anyone going for it. It's not the type of situation that will elicit the same response the nurses gave and many will apply but if you are going for it your chances are much better than they were before.

adamski8

Yeah its a job for wealthy people from munster now

artanevilla

Currently doing an aircraft maintenance course at a 3rd level institution. Was going to apply so I could do something in the industry and get an allowance while studying also. Not going to bother now.

nah_biy!

Became very excited when I received the email as regards the course. Read through old threads and accepted the 4 years & €500/fortnight and was all set to fill out the form. This has been a dream of mine for years and was willing to give up my current engineering role. However now the 2 years study is unpaid and the lengthening of obliged work to avoid fees to 7 years has killed any dreaming. All that allied to the bass rate is going to see a massive drop off in numbers and more worrying a drop off in ability.

aw

Similar sentiments to everyone else.
I had planned on applying this time and I had steeled myself for getting by on the study allowance but absolutely cannot do it without financial support. I further doubt that this would come in under any grant or BTEA schemes either.

It really seems a shortsighted idea to save a few € on the training and smacks of something that has not been thought through properly as to what implications this may have for future candidates.

Maybe they are following the airline industry in other areas, i.e. getting rid of sponsored cadet schemes in favour of hiring skilled people who have funded their own training.

It is very out of line with any other agencies though, like NATS or Eurocontrol as are the salary grades. But the salary cuts are to be somewhat expected given the cutbacks across every industry.

Maybe they will offer something to successful applicants after they get through and they are not in a position to say this publicly. Wishful thinking perhaps.

highlydebased

I too shall not apply for the same reason as the above posters. It was bad enough not being able to support myself financially through 4 years of college.

aw

Just referring back to an old thread from the last round in 2010...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055987235

Just reading though and they appear to have removed the requirement to repay €50000 of the training fees from your starting salary.

This would certainly account for a good portion, €12k p.a., of the difference in starting at €51k and €32k. €1000 per month was the repayment but obviously your salary would be the full €51k after four years instead of remaining at the much lower scale.

I also see that the new scale goes up as far as €88540 whereas the old scale was capped at €78209.

2010 Information wrote:

Basic starting salary for controllers after full qualification is just under E51,000, with 27% shift work, this ends up being just under E65,000.

The current basic Salary Scale for Operational Air Traffic Controllers is:
€50,805 – 52,413 – 54,027 – 55,642 – 57,249 – 58,869 – 60,475 – 62,088 –
€63,703 – 65,310 – 66,925 – 68,536 – 70,150 – 71,764 – 73,371 – 74,983 –
€76,599 – 78,209

All of the above points are exclusive of 27% shift allowance. All Students who successfully complete all aspects of the Student Controller Programme and are offered a contract as an Operational Air Traffic Controller will start at the minimum of the salary scale €50,805.

Stormhawk88

Just for anybody who does decide to go for this I would suggest reading the fine print of the contract after the passing the selection process.

"you may be offered appointment as an Air Traffic Controller. "

This suggests that the training contract will be open ended and not an actual offer of employment with the actual offer of employment coming at the end of the training depending on staffing requirements at the time.

I say the this after being on the wrong side of one of these contracts before and not a very nice experience to find yourself lumped out on the street after expecting a job. It would also be rough after 2 years of savings being spent to train. I also do not know what the prospects would be of finding another job after something like that happening as you would have to travel abroad and that is not for some people. Another point to note is the amount of on the job experience that would be gained so that if this situation did happen how employable you would be in say the U.K. or Europe.

Hope I don't sound too pessimistic to those who do want this but its better to be prepared for these situations.

Tenger

Stormhawk88 wrote: »

Just for anybody who does decide to go for this I would suggest reading the fine print of the contract after the passing the selection process.

"you may be offered appointment as an Air Traffic Controller. "

This suggests that the training contract will be open ended and not an actual offer of employment with the actual offer of employment coming at the end of the training depending on staffing requirements at the time.
.....

My thoughts too.....I expect this is a hedge on something going badly wrong and their budget being slashed in the next 12-18 months. I expect they plan to employ all successful candidates but want to have a 'get out clause'

aidan24326

Pass it then move to Spain lads. Apparently controllers over there earn serious money, with salaries in excess of 200-250K not unusual.

mcgjohn

If you pass after two years and just leave you are required to pay training costs of €190,000. You have to agree to work for IAA for 7 years

APM

aidan24326 wrote: »

Pass it then move to Spain lads. Apparently controllers over there earn serious money, with salaries in excess of 200-250K not unusual.

Not to mention learning Spanish fluently. According to Spanish AIP, official #1 language used in ATC in Spain is Spanish. English is only #2

jimbomalley

APM wrote: »

Not to mention learning Spanish fluently. According to Spanish AIP, official #1 language used in ATC in Spain is Spanish. English is only #2

English is the language of atc worldwide period. And now that the Spanish controllers are officially part of the military and cost cutting measures are in place, nobody new in the future will earn these kind of figures. Plus the working conditions and quality of equipment in Spain are very poor compared to what we have in Ireland

Edit. The money figures are in response to a previous post

Lenmeister

aidan24326 wrote: »

Pass it then move to Spain lads. Apparently controllers over there earn serious money, with salaries in excess of 200-250K not unusual.

You serious? That's big money I'd no idea it could go so high!

APM

jimbomalley wrote: »

English is the language of atc worldwide period. And now that the Spanish controllers are officially part of the military and cost cutting measures are in place, nobody new in the future will earn these kind of figures. Plus the working conditions and quality of equipment in Spain are very poor compared to what we have in Ireland

http://www.aena.es/csee/Satellite/navegacion-aerea/en/Page/1078418725129/?other=1078418781525#ancla2

Spanish AIP - 4.4.1 In addition to the constant requirements in this paragraph,
Spain requires that applicants for an ATC licence be in
possession of a university degree of diplomado or licenciado
or have passed the first full year of a higher-degree university
course.
Applicants are also required to demonstrate fluency in spoken
and written Spanish and English without any difficulty being
observed in oral expression which could adversely affect radio
communications.

beazee

APM wrote: »

Applicants are also required to demonstrate fluency in spoken and written Spanish and English without any difficulty being
observed in oral expression which could adversely affect radio
communications.

Same story in Poland or Germany. GA pilots are allowed to use national language when communicating with ATC.

jimbomalley

APM wrote: »

http://www.aena.es/csee/Satellite/navegacion-aerea/en/Page/1078418725129/?other=1078418781525#ancla2

Spanish AIP - 4.4.1 In addition to the constant requirements in this paragraph,
Spain requires that applicants for an ATC licence be in
possession of a university degree of diplomado or licenciado
or have passed the first full year of a higher-degree university
course.
Applicants are also required to demonstrate fluency in spoken
and written Spanish and English without any difficulty being
observed in oral expression which could adversely affect radio
communications.

How does this demonstrate that spanish is officially #1 for atc comms? Because thats what you said. English is the official language of atc. All icao member state require controllers to pass english competency tests for a reason. Nothing unusual about a spanish speaking country requiring its controllers to speak spanish

notharrypotter

English may be the official languiage for communications, however most rules and regulations will be written in spanish.

Hence there will be a requirement for a high level of ability to Speak/Read/Write in spanish as a prerequsite to gaining employment.

Then there would be the issue of domestic services which would involve an element of pleasure flying who never intend to leave spain and would not be profficent in English.

ICAO publications availible in English Chinese French Arabic Russian and Spanish.

Aviation English only I believe for enroute and a mix of Aviation English and National language would be used in domestic and terminal services.

notharrypotter

There were ads recently for staff in Spain under contract to a crowd called "Ferro Nats"

It was covered at length elsewhere

From what I can see the new hires here are on significantly lower than the figures quoted above.

APM

jimbomalley wrote: »

How does this demonstrate that spanish is officially #1 for atc comms? Because thats what you said. English is the official language of atc. All icao member state require controllers to pass english competency tests for a reason. Nothing unusual about a spanish speaking country requiring its controllers to speak spanish

I can't find the exact reference but I will continue to search thru my old documents, it was something I was shown from the AIP from an instructor when I was living in Spain.

But flying through Spanish airspace most days you will hear Spanish ATC talking Spanish to Iberia, Vueling etc, likewise in France almost all communication with French ATC and Air France will be in French.

mcgjohn

Any ideas on how to finance 2 years unpaid training?

the beerhunter

mcgjohn wrote: »

Any ideas on how to finance 2 years unpaid training?

maybe the person who can answer that is the kind of resourceful go-getter the iaa are now looking for!

adamski8

mcgjohn wrote: »

Any ideas on how to finance 2 years unpaid training?

start saving...........20years ago

Kayad

At the moment its looking like raiding the savings, selling the car and maybe taking a few hints from Breaking Bad. But its what I want to do.

aidan24326

Lenmeister wrote: »

You serious? That's big money I'd no idea it could go so high!

Yes I'm serious. In fact a minority of senior Spanish controllers actually earn significantly more, up to 800K in some cases. I'd say that will change though as a Spanish minister only recently lambasted them as being privileged, untouchable, overpaid etc But yeah 250K is about the average. Why Spain decided to pay them so much more than the going rate I don't know. I mean it's a difficult and stressful job and deserves an above-average salary, but when you have guys on 800K then it's clear that changes are needed.

notharrypotter

Yes I'm serious. In fact a minority of senior Spanish controllers actually earn significantly more, up to 800K in some cases

Thats some money,
but do you have a link to salary scales or similar,
the Ferrol NATS thread seems to be very low pay

popsynesbitt

Hello All,
really disappointed about the way in which the new recruitment drive for ATCs has taken place. I have a friend who joined in 07/08 and he has confirmed that IAA have maintained that his group would be the last to have training allowance and obviously they let one or two more groups through but finally they have stopped paying it. Also they are making quite a statement out of the fact that there 'may' be a job offer at the end. They are just treating the next group purely as students and based on what he tells me there are only requirements for a few more ATCOs in next few years. He has basically warned me to be careful as it may be a huge commitment with a need to go abroad to gain employment. But you will have fantastic training and a license to do a fantastic job. So it changes things a bit I guess. Certainly for me its disheartening as I was really wishing the days away unit a new competition would start and this has made it so much harder. Was willing 100% to move to Limerick and follow my dream but I just cant see it being viable considering how much commitment is needed with no guarantees of a job after. Tough decisions! Best of luck to those who apply!