So the 2013 HC winners are....

CGD

Munster

Clermont to beat Toulon in the final

Tox56

Neoulous wrote: »

You just can not compare the Irish Provinces and the French clubs. Selecting the "local" players between 4 and ~ 20 clubs is not the same thing.

It's not the same in that sense no, but then again the entire population of Ireland is half that of Paris alone! It's not a fair comparison in that sense either.

In their game last Friday v Wasps, Leinster had 14 Irish-Qualified players in their starting 15, and a further 6 on the bench. Of that 20 I'd consider 15 of them to be homegrown. By contrast, just 9 of the Toulon matchday 23 v Leicester were French qualified, and the majority of those were bought from other French clubs.

It's not a great sample size but that is a huge disparity. Toulon are the worst offenders (and you do recognise that), but even look at Clermont.

While admittedly their bench is packed with French players, if Brock James had been fit for the game v Montpellier on Saturday, they would have had just 6 French players in their starting 15. When they have the spending power to bring in great foreign players and, as you say, are able to attract the best of a large French rugby playing population, it's got to be difficult for the Irish clubs to compete.

jamiedav2011

Munster

Neoulous wrote: »

I see your point but I think you're looking at it the wrong way.

You just can not compare the Irish Provinces and the French clubs. Selecting the "local" players between 4 and ~ 20 clubs is not the same thing.

Regarding the money involved I think we should also include the local tax and charges regime. Otherwise it has no sense.

In France, Toulouse and Clermont are attracting most of the top French players. So to compete the "new rich" clubs (Toulon & Racing) have to "buy" foreign players. Toulon and Racing want to grow fast so they started with quickly building a strong team with their cash power (Stade Francais did the same 15 years ago). But if they want to last they'll have to develop an academy to "make" good players out of the local players. Boudjelal has a huge project of building a big academy in the south east of France. Actually Toulon has already started, their young teams are doing very well. But Boudjelal's recruitment is overshadowing this fact in the media.

Of course on the other hand when you see the long term progression of a team like Montpellier with many key players coming from the local academy it is more enhancive (and it's not my friend iroced who will tell me otherwise :P). But I always find it hard to criticize a guy like Boudjelal and I think a lot of the criticism against Toulon are coming from the huge conservatism of the rugby world. You know "we" don't like to share and having a "new" club battling for the titles is "annoying". All these people should maybe just have a look at RCT history :rolleyes:.

Defending Toulon as a USAP fan is weird but I think it's a rapid shortcut ignoring completely the context to say that Toulon are buying their successes.

I agree with the sentiment, but this line is pretty ridiculous!

molloyjh

Munster

Swiwi wrote: »

Merci bien Neoulous pour cette explication détaillée. Au fait, on vous attend avec plaisir chez nous en juin pour ces rematchs de la finale da la coupe du monde de rugby. J'espère quand même que vous allez faire une meilleure prestation par rapport au tournoi des 6N!

(mods, in the spirit of rugby fraternity, please permit this brief foray away from English...)

Show off.

Swiwi

Munster

molloyjh wrote: »

Show off.

In fairness, I lived in Clermont for a year

Aidric

Saracens

danthefan wrote: »

Something I've had an issue with for years is this "mercenary" tag that some Irish fans in particular like to use. It's absolutely ridiculous to use a pejorative term for someone trying to maximise their income. Not to mention guys like Elsom and JdV would fit the description perfectly.

I think it's just a lazy moniker tagged on to players who come for the fat check and don't put the effort in.

Teferi

Munster

Does the poll look wonky for anyone else?

awec

Munster

Blank options keep getting added.

.ak

It's been a problem with polls for last while I think.... Not just this one, seems to be a boards.ie issue.

Rightwing

Toulon

Clermont are without question the best team in Europe, and by a distance. Probably have the best squad ever seen in the competition. No team has ever won all 6 matches in their group and gone on to win it, hopefully the 'curse of 6' will strike again and Munster against all odds, against all expectations will go on to win it.

CatFromHue

Clermont are a massive -11 for the SF!!

Leinster went to SMM with a relatively simple game plan this season and could have/should have gotten a draw at least. It is very possible that Munster will give them a right good game and possible for them to even squeek a win!

Clermont as I've said above are massive massive favourites for this game so the pressure is all on them. They're 2nd in the Top 14 and their next two games are against the team above them and the team below them, add that into the massive favourites they are for the Munster game could easily see them take their eye off that game.

I don't know who'll win the comp but Munster are still in the reckoning I think.

Edit: To critically analyse their group it would be fair to say it wasn't the hardest and was relatively straight forward really. Then their QF was at home to a team with no pedigree in the comp and who are 6th in the Top 14. Yes they beat Leinster twice but when the pressure was really on them in the first game they didn't look like world beaters then. The pressure was off them when they came to Dublin as at that stage they were on 14pts compared to Leinsters 9.

For Paws

Munster

Difficult to see Saracens progress any further. Their position in the EP is not a reliable indicator. Of the 6 EP teams, (Gloucester, Wasps, Harlequins, Bath, Leicester & Sarries) who were involved in QF European matches (5 at home) only Saracens won. Yet these are the same teams that dominate the league which Saracens lead.

Their kick & chase game and the sheer industry of their defense will see off most good teams, but kicking possession away to teams with the class of Clermont or Toulon will mean having to rely on their opponents having a bad day with ball in hand (think Eng v Ire). Might happen, but probably won't (think Eng v Wales).

CatFromHue

For Paws wrote: »

Difficult to see Saracens progress any further. Their position in the EP is not a reliable indicator. Of the 6 EP teams, (Gloucester, Wasps, Harlequins, Bath, Leicester & Sarries) who were involved in QF European matches (5 at home) only Saracens won. Yet these are the same teams that dominate the league which Saracens lead.

Their kick & chase game and the sheer industry of their defense will see off most good teams, but kicking possession away to teams with the class of Clermont or Toulon will mean having to rely on their opponents having a bad day with ball in hand (think Eng v Ire). Might happen, but probably won't (think Eng v Wales).

Saracens beat Leicester away and drew with them at home, Leicester narrowly lost to Toulon.

Saracens have also beaten the other 2 top top 4 teams in the league home and away.

funtime93

Anyone but Saracens.Absolutely hate them and their style of play.Would love to see Farrell or Ashton get thumped.

For Paws

Munster

CatFromHue wrote: »

Saracens beat Leicester away and drew with them at home, Leicester narrowly lost to Toulon.

Saracens have also beaten the other 2 top top 4 teams in the league home and away.

Your second point is exactly what I was pointing out. Currently Sarries are the best team in the EP. But where does that put them in European terms.
(Yes, I realise they're in the last 4 standing, but I still don't think they'll progress).

As to you first point. Wales beat England, France, Scotland & Italy, but since Ireland beat Wales does that make us better than Wales ?

CatFromHue

Ha, yeah we're the real 6N Champions

I don't know if they're going to progress but equally I don't know if Toulon can beat them either. They are getting better and better in Europe so who knows.

Neoulous

Munster

Swiwi wrote: »

Merci bien Neoulous pour cette explication détaillée. Au fait, on vous attend avec plaisir chez nous en juin pour ces rematchs de la finale da la coupe du monde de rugby. J'espère quand même que vous allez faire une meilleure prestation par rapport au tournoi des 6N!

(mods, in the spirit of rugby fraternity, please permit this brief foray away from English...)

Mais de rien

I certainly hope we propose a better standard of rugby than the one from this last 6N embarrassment or we'll enter the record book for the biggest thrashing ever in the history of the sport ^^

Nermal wrote: »

Indeed. They have 13 times our population, and access to talent from various former and current colonies in Polynesia and Africa. They should be fielding 52 clubs on roughly equal footing with the Irish provinces without having to buy anywhere near the talent they do.

Tox56 wrote: »

It's not the same in that sense no, but then again the entire population of Ireland is half that of Paris alone! It's not a fair comparison in that sense either.

In their game last Friday v Wasps, Leinster had 14 Irish-Qualified players in their starting 15, and a further 6 on the bench. Of that 20 I'd consider 15 of them to be homegrown. By contrast, just 9 of the Toulon matchday 23 v Leicester were French qualified, and the majority of those were bought from other French clubs.

It's not a great sample size but that is a huge disparity. Toulon are the worst offenders (and you do recognise that), but even look at Clermont.

While admittedly their bench is packed with French players, if Brock James had been fit for the game v Montpellier on Saturday, they would have had just 6 French players in their starting 15. When they have the spending power to bring in great foreign players and, as you say, are able to attract the best of a large French rugby playing population, it's got to be difficult for the Irish clubs to compete.

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Neoulous wrote: »

You just can not compare the Irish Provinces and the French clubs. Selecting the "local" players between 4 and ~ 20 clubs is not the same thing.

I agree with the sentiment, but this line is pretty ridiculous!

When I said that you can't compare the selection between 4 provinces and ~ 20 (competititve) teams I was not implying it's easier or tougher for one or the other. Just a "raw" statement that you can not compare.

To be able to compare you'd have not only to take the country's population into account but more importantly the whole rugby system of both countries. I referred to the tax system, I have no precise idea of how it works in both country but it has to be taken into account. The link with the federation too. What model the federation is supporting ? Look at England where the federation encourages the English clubs to have a certain amount of English players so that they get some kind of grant. In France it's the opposite: if you don't have a minimum amount of French players you get taxed. This all-repressive system is not working. Maybe we're not asking the right questions, that's what I meant.

And in Ireland, how does the Provinces system works in detail? What is the connection with the smaller clubs? How does the rugby academies work ? For example in Dublin, the players come from the Leinster academy or the smaller clubs academies ? I read here once that the Irish schools/universities "produce" players too.

I feel you need to encompass all that to make a valid comparison than just "Toulon is buying success" and "Leinster/Munster/Ulster are producing success" which was the idea I was responding to .

P_1

CatFromHue wrote: »

Clermont are a massive -11 for the SF!!

Leinster went to SMM with a relatively simple game plan this season and could have/should have gotten a draw at least. It is very possible that Munster will give them a right good game and possible for them to even squeek a win!

Clermont as I've said above are massive massive favourites for this game so the pressure is all on them. They're 2nd in the Top 14 and their next two games are against the team above them and the team below them, add that into the massive favourites they are for the Munster game could easily see them take their eye off that game.

I don't know who'll win the comp but Munster are still in the reckoning I think.

Edit: To critically analyse their group it would be fair to say it wasn't the hardest and was relatively straight forward really. Then their QF was at home to a team with no pedigree in the comp and who are 6th in the Top 14. Yes they beat Leinster twice but when the pressure was really on them in the first game they didn't look like world beaters then. The pressure was off them when they came to Dublin as at that stage they were on 14pts compared to Leinsters 9.

For context sake last year's semi final was a scr handicap. The bookies clearly think that Munster don't have much hope for the semi (last I checked Munster were 5/1 to win the match)

Rightwing

Toulon

P_1 wrote: »

For context sake last year's semi final was a scr handicap. The bookies clearly think that Munster don't have much hope for the semi (last I checked Munster were 5/1 to win the match)

Cotter claims Clermont are still hurting from last year's semi. They've been targetting the H Cup big time this year.

desertcircus

Just cannot see past Clermont. They're unbelievably strong, and having been turfed out by Leinster in three of the previous four years, they won home and away this time round. Munster could beat them, but they'll need to have the game of their lives while Clermont play their worst home game in four years, and even then it'd probably come down to a single score. As for the final: Lansdowne Road will be virtually home territory for them. They know the stadium, the locals will be cheering for them: Saracens or Toulon will be effectively playing an away game.

Rightwing

Toulon

desertcircus wrote: »

Just cannot see past Clermont. They're unbelievably strong, and having been turfed out by Leinster in three of the previous four years, they won home and away this time round. Munster could beat them, but they'll need to have the game of their lives while Clermont play their worst home game in four years, and even then it'd probably come down to a single score. As for the final: Lansdowne Road will be virtually home territory for them. They know the stadium, the locals will be cheering for them: Saracens or Toulon will be effectively playing an away game.

We need to put things into perspective here. If they play their worst game in 4 years, and Munster the game of their lives we'd be looking at a 40+ point win for Munster.

iroced

CatFromHue wrote: »

Clermont as I've said above are massive massive favourites for this game so the pressure is all on them. They're 2nd in the Top 14 and their next two games are against the team above them and the team below them, add that into the massive favourites they are for the Munster game could easily see them take their eye off that game.

I don't know who'll win the comp but Munster are still in the reckoning I think.

I can't see that happening. Clermont priority this year is the HCup. Clermont second place in the top 14 is almost guaranteed.
If anything I'd rather consider the "too much pressure" factor since they're dying to win this competition. Or I'd refer to a mental blocking. It took them so long to win the Top 14 and they lost many finals being the favorite. Though Morgan Parra completely changed this situation. He "is" what they were missing. And last year experience vs Leinster should "help" them.

totallegend

Munster

The problem is that I think Munster raised their game enormously on Sunday but it wouldn't have been enough to trouble Clermont. That's what worries me, that they don't have another level to go to. I know they'll have Earls and Howlett back (won't they?) but I just can't see it being enough.

Rightwing

Toulon

totallegend wrote: »

The problem is that I think Munster raised their game enormously on Sunday but it wouldn't have been enough to trouble Clermont. That's what worries me, that they don't have another level to go to. I know they'll have Earls and Howlett back (won't they?) but I just can't see it being enough.

If Clermont play like they did v Ulster last year or Leinster, Munster can win, the problem I see is that they could raise it 2 or 3 notches up from that. Then we're in trouble, regardless of how we play.

pickarooney

Munster

Swiwi wrote: »

In fairness, I lived in Clermont for a year

Mes condoléances :pac:

desertcircus

Rightwing wrote: »

We need to put things into perspective here. If they play their worst game in 4 years, and Munster the game of their lives we'd be looking at a 40+ point win for Munster.

Worst home game in four years - and Clermont's solitary loss in a home fixture in their last sixty home games was in last year's semi, where they lost by a single score to a Leinster team that won their quarter by 31 points and the final by 28. A below-par Clermont can still beat an on-song Munster; it needs to be more than that.

Tox56

Rightwing wrote: »

If Clermont play like they did v Ulster last year or Leinster, Munster can win, the problem I see is that they could raise it 2 or 3 notches up from that. Then we're in trouble, regardless of how we play.

Leinster were at full strength and on top form against Clermont last year and were lucky to come away with a win. Their defence was excellent but still conceded points, the attack and an inspired 15 mins from Rob Kearney made the difference. I just don't think the Munster attack is good enough to keep the ball from Clermont for long enough, and when they do have it I can't see them putting Clermont under pressure like Leinster did last year. Clermont will be able to match Munster's intensity and although they might not run away with it I can see them doing enough to keep Munster at arms length throughout (like they did against Leinster in the aviva).

Buer

desertcircus wrote: »

Worst home game in four years - and Clermont's solitary loss in a home fixture in their last sixty home games was in last year's semi, where they lost by a single score to a Leinster team that won their quarter by 31 points and the final by 28. A below-par Clermont can still beat an on-song Munster; it needs to be more than that.

Scarily, Clermont were arguably under strength at the weekend. They were missing three key players through injury all of whom should be back in contention for the Munster match.

Rightwing

Toulon

Tox56 wrote: »

Leinster were at full strength and on top form against Clermont last year and were lucky to come away with a win. Their defence was excellent but still conceded points, the attack and an inspired 15 mins from Rob Kearney made the difference. I just don't think the Munster attack is good enough to keep the ball from Clermont for long enough, and when they do have it I can't see them putting Clermont under pressure like Leinster did last year. Clermont will be able to match Munster's intensity and although they might not run away with it I can see them doing enough to keep Munster at arms length throughout (like they did against Leinster in the aviva).

I agree about last year, I was thinking more this year for v Leinster. But like last year, the winner will come from this side of the draw.

molloyjh

Munster

Clermont have plenty of respect for Munster. And the game on Sunday would have ensured that they don't expect an easy ride. Tbh I don't get this "all the pressure is on Clermont" at all. There's massive talk now about Munster being "back" (after one fecking game) and yet they have to go away to France, to the form team in the competition, to the side that are favourites to win the HEC, who have the loudest and most intimidating fans along with some of the biggest, fittest and most physical players in the NH. And if they don't get a result over there their season is over. Clermont aren't going to break their Leinster duck only to have another Irish province deny them what they deserve in a shock defeat. Munster have it all to do. The pressure is on them.