So the 2013 HC winners are....

justsomebloke

So the 2013 HC semi finalists are Munster, Clermont, Toulon and Saracens. So we have a Good Guys Semi Final Clermont V Munster and a Bad guys semi final Saracens V Toulon.

So who is your pick for the title

.ak

justsomebloke wrote: »

So the 2014 HC semi finalists are Munster, Clermont, Toulon and Saracens. So we have a Good Guys Semi Final Clermont V Munster and a Bad guys semi final Saracens V Toulon.

So who is your pick for the title

Too late to edit that now, ha! Also, poll? :P

Clareman

Saracens

.ak wrote: »

Too late to edit that now, ha! Also, poll? :P

Just can't get the help anymore

Munster

Picked Clermont in September. Nothing much has changed.

lemansky

Munster

Clermont for me.

Buer

Clermont but, if one team are currently set up to stop them, it's Saracens. They're not in the same breath as them as a team but they're incredibly hard working and frustrating. Their defence never stops and they can take their opportunities off the tee. If it was any other stage, I'd say there was no hope but Clermont do have a history of choking. I'd say 75% sure that Clermont will win it but there's a chance.

awec

Munster

Clermont, but would have voted for the "anyone but Saracens" option.

bilston

Munster

I could certainly see Saracens winning the damn thing.

However I'm putting my faith in Clermont albeit I'd like to see Munster win.

Saracens to beat Toulon, Clermont to beat Munster and Clermont to beat Saracens in Dublin.

rchendz92

Saracens

I'm going for Munster. Gut feeling/Irish bias.

pickarooney

Munster

Why are Toulon the bad guys again? Is it because of Bakkies and Delon or something else?

Hersheys

Munster

pickarooney wrote: »

Why are Toulon the bad guys again? Is it because of Bakkies and Delon or something else?

IMO it's because they used their wealth to buy talent rather than grow it themselves.

bilston

Munster

rchendz92 wrote: »

I'm going for Munster. Gut feeling/Irish bias.

They always say never write Munster off and rightly so but I'll say this, if they go to France and beat Clermont it will IMO blow all their other achievements out of the water. In saying that if they do manage to pull it off against Clermont I'd back them to win the final.

Garseys

Saracens

Clermont are clear favourites, which might work against them against Munster. I just can see ROG kicking a drop goal to win Munster that match.

peterako

Munster

Voted Clermont.....

But am loath to write Munster off........

.ak

Who's reffing the semi in France? That could mean an awful lot...

rchendz92

Saracens

bilston wrote: »

They always say never write Munster off and rightly so but I'll say this, if they go to France and beat Clermont it will IMO blow all their other achievements out of the water. In saying that if they do manage to pull it off against Clermont I'd back them to win the final.

I agree, but I would have put anything on Quins beating them. Would just be so bloody typical of Munster to win Europe in probably their most off-form season in recent memory!

Hagz

Toulon

All I can see is a Saracens win unfortunately.

trouttrout

Munster

Garseys wrote: »

Clermont are clear favourites, which might work against them against Munster. I just can see ROG kicking a drop goal to win Munster that match.

You think that's a bad thing?

Clermont strong favorites but if we put the jitters on them anything could happen. I think they're head and shoulders above Munster and Saracens though.

danthefan

Clermont

Clermont look the strongest side in it imo, Toulon have a stupidly strong XV though too. One or the other I reckon.

its_phil

Clermont

danthefan wrote: »

Clermont look the strongest side in it imo, Toulon have a stupidly strong XV though too. One or the other I reckon.

I don't think Saracens can be ruled out either. As frustrating as they are, that is funnily enough their greatest asset. They just seem to grind down teams and get the result they want in the most painful way for spectators.

totallegend

Munster

I just can't see past Clermont. They got a bit of a wake-up call in the opening half-hour against Montpellier and I think they'll be primed for Munster. The fact that the game is not in Clermont is the only chink of light for Munster but I don't think it will be enough. It's a pity the draw fell as it did because I'd say Munster would fancy a pop off either Toulon or Saracens based on what we saw this weekend.

tolosenc

Munster

bilston wrote: »

They always say never write Munster off and rightly so but I'll say this, if they go to France and beat Clermont it will IMO blow all their other achievements out of the water. In saying that if they do manage to pull it off against Clermont I'd back them to win the final.

Beating Clermont in a semi in France is easy. Been there, done that.

Hersheys wrote: »

IMO it's because they used their wealth to buy talent rather than grow it themselves.

As opposed to Clermont, who don't spend extortionate amounts on foreign imports...

Buer

tolosenc wrote: »

As opposed to Clermont, who don't spend extortionate amounts on foreign imports...

Exactly. Toulon are more outspoken and flash with their money but lets not pretend that Clermont are a home grown team. Rougerie is the Clermont player in the side. The rest are buy ins. Or Montpellier, the small side that are owned by a guy who is worth over €300m and has invested personally in the team. The majority of their side has joined the club in the last 3 years along with the coaching team who didn't come cheap.

It runs throughout French rugby. Toulon are just the easy target due to the players they sign.

Neoulous

Munster

Clermont has to be the standout favorite. That being said Munster will be a real test for them. They have the experience and the kind of "negative" playing to annoy them. If they make it to the final Toulon will be the same. Saracens I have no idea. I haven't seen them play enough and don't know them very well...

tolosenc wrote: »

Beating Clermont in a semi in France is easy. Been there, done that.

Not sure if ironical but does what you said mean it was easy for Leinster last year ? Because if my memory serves me right Leinster went through just for Fofana not being able to unfold his elbow and score Clermont winning try...

Swiwi

Munster

pickarooney wrote: »

Why are Toulon the bad guys again? Is it because of Bakkies and Delon or something else?

Would you support an Irish province if it was virtually devoid of Irish players? I'd even wonder (but have no idea) whether the French players in the Toulon team were even born in the region.

All teams benefit from imports, but Toulon take the piss if you ask me - it's basically a lucrative retirement home for ex-3N and English internationals.

However, I'm told their ground and the crowd support is top drawer, so they have that going for them. Rather suspect they have a full-time translator, and press conferences in English, though.

I'll be gunning for whoever wins out of Munster & Clermont, that is for certain.

Neoulous

Munster

Swiwi wrote: »

Would you support an Irish province if it was virtually devoid of Irish players? I'd even wonder (but have no idea) whether the French players in the Toulon team were even born in the region.

All teams benefit from imports, but Toulon take the piss if you ask me - it's basically a lucrative retirement home for ex-3N and English internationals.

I see your point but I think you're looking at it the wrong way.

You just can not compare the Irish Provinces and the French clubs. Selecting the "local" players between 4 and ~ 20 clubs is not the same thing.

Regarding the money involved I think we should also include the local tax and charges regime. Otherwise it has no sense.

In France, Toulouse and Clermont are attracting most of the top French players. So to compete the "new rich" clubs (Toulon & Racing) have to "buy" foreign players. Toulon and Racing want to grow fast so they started with quickly building a strong team with their cash power (Stade Francais did the same 15 years ago). But if they want to last they'll have to develop an academy to "make" good players out of the local players. Boudjelal has a huge project of building a big academy in the south east of France. Actually Toulon has already started, their young teams are doing very well. But Boudjelal's recruitment is overshadowing this fact in the media.

Of course on the other hand when you see the long term progression of a team like Montpellier with many key players coming from the local academy it is more enhancive (and it's not my friend iroced who will tell me otherwise :P). But I always find it hard to criticize a guy like Boudjelal and I think a lot of the criticism against Toulon are coming from the huge conservatism of the rugby world. You know "we" don't like to share and having a "new" club battling for the titles is "annoying". All these people should maybe just have a look at RCT history :rolleyes:.

Defending Toulon as a USAP fan is weird but I think it's a rapid shortcut ignoring completely the context to say that Toulon are buying their successes.

mfceiling

Didn't the last final to be played in dublin involve 2 french teams?

Omen...

Aidric

Saracens

.ak wrote: »

Who's reffing the semi in France? That could mean an awful lot...

Nigel Owens. :P

danthefan

Clermont

If the provinces had the permission and money I've no doubt they'd be buying all the top class NIQs they could get their hands on.

Something I've had an issue with for years is this "mercenary" tag that some Irish fans in particular like to use. It's absolutely ridiculous to use a pejorative term for someone trying to maximise their income. Not to mention guys like Elsom and JdV would fit the description perfectly.

Swiwi

Munster

Neoulous wrote: »

I see your point but I think you're looking at it the wrong way.

You just can not compare the Irish Provinces and the French clubs. Selecting the "local" players between 4 and ~ 20 clubs is not the same thing.

Regarding the money involved I think we should also include the local tax and charges regime. Otherwise it has no sense.

In France, Toulouse and Clermont are attracting most of the top French players. So to compete the "new rich" clubs (Toulon & Racing) have to "buy" foreign players. Toulon and Racing want to grow fast so they started with quickly building a strong team with their cash power (Stade Francais did the same 15 years ago). But if they want to last they'll have to develop an academy to "make" good players out of the local players. Boudjelal has a huge project of building a big academy in the south east of France. Actually Toulon has already started, their young teams are doing very well. But Boudjelal's recruitment is overshadowing this fact in the media.

Of course on the other hand when you see the long term progression of a team like Montpellier with many key players coming from the local academy it is more enhancive (and it's not my friend iroced who will tell me otherwise :P). But I always find it hard to criticize a guy like Boudjelal and I think a lot of the criticism against Toulon are coming from the huge conservatism of the rugby world. You know "we" don't like to share and having a "new" club battling for the titles is "annoying". All these people should maybe just have a look at RCT history :rolleyes:.

Defending Toulon as a USAP fan is weird but I think it's a rapid shortcut ignoring completely the context to say that Toulon are buying their successes.

Merci bien Neoulous pour cette explication détaillée. Au fait, on vous attend avec plaisir chez nous en juin pour ces rematchs de la finale da la coupe du monde de rugby. J'espère quand même que vous allez faire une meilleure prestation par rapport au tournoi des 6N!

(mods, in the spirit of rugby fraternity, please permit this brief foray away from English...)

Nermal

Neoulous wrote: »

You just can not compare the Irish Provinces and the French clubs. Selecting the "local" players between 4 and ~ 20 clubs is not the same thing.

Indeed. They have 13 times our population, and access to talent from various former and current colonies in Polynesia and Africa. They should be fielding 52 clubs on roughly equal footing with the Irish provinces without having to buy anywhere near the talent they do.

CGD

Munster

Clermont to beat Toulon in the final

Tox56

Neoulous wrote: »

You just can not compare the Irish Provinces and the French clubs. Selecting the "local" players between 4 and ~ 20 clubs is not the same thing.

It's not the same in that sense no, but then again the entire population of Ireland is half that of Paris alone! It's not a fair comparison in that sense either.

In their game last Friday v Wasps, Leinster had 14 Irish-Qualified players in their starting 15, and a further 6 on the bench. Of that 20 I'd consider 15 of them to be homegrown. By contrast, just 9 of the Toulon matchday 23 v Leicester were French qualified, and the majority of those were bought from other French clubs.

It's not a great sample size but that is a huge disparity. Toulon are the worst offenders (and you do recognise that), but even look at Clermont.

While admittedly their bench is packed with French players, if Brock James had been fit for the game v Montpellier on Saturday, they would have had just 6 French players in their starting 15. When they have the spending power to bring in great foreign players and, as you say, are able to attract the best of a large French rugby playing population, it's got to be difficult for the Irish clubs to compete.

jamiedav2011

Munster

Neoulous wrote: »

I see your point but I think you're looking at it the wrong way.

You just can not compare the Irish Provinces and the French clubs. Selecting the "local" players between 4 and ~ 20 clubs is not the same thing.

Regarding the money involved I think we should also include the local tax and charges regime. Otherwise it has no sense.

In France, Toulouse and Clermont are attracting most of the top French players. So to compete the "new rich" clubs (Toulon & Racing) have to "buy" foreign players. Toulon and Racing want to grow fast so they started with quickly building a strong team with their cash power (Stade Francais did the same 15 years ago). But if they want to last they'll have to develop an academy to "make" good players out of the local players. Boudjelal has a huge project of building a big academy in the south east of France. Actually Toulon has already started, their young teams are doing very well. But Boudjelal's recruitment is overshadowing this fact in the media.

Of course on the other hand when you see the long term progression of a team like Montpellier with many key players coming from the local academy it is more enhancive (and it's not my friend iroced who will tell me otherwise :P). But I always find it hard to criticize a guy like Boudjelal and I think a lot of the criticism against Toulon are coming from the huge conservatism of the rugby world. You know "we" don't like to share and having a "new" club battling for the titles is "annoying". All these people should maybe just have a look at RCT history :rolleyes:.

Defending Toulon as a USAP fan is weird but I think it's a rapid shortcut ignoring completely the context to say that Toulon are buying their successes.

I agree with the sentiment, but this line is pretty ridiculous!

molloyjh

Munster

Swiwi wrote: »

Merci bien Neoulous pour cette explication détaillée. Au fait, on vous attend avec plaisir chez nous en juin pour ces rematchs de la finale da la coupe du monde de rugby. J'espère quand même que vous allez faire une meilleure prestation par rapport au tournoi des 6N!

(mods, in the spirit of rugby fraternity, please permit this brief foray away from English...)

Show off.

Swiwi

Munster

molloyjh wrote: »

Show off.

In fairness, I lived in Clermont for a year

Aidric

Saracens

danthefan wrote: »

Something I've had an issue with for years is this "mercenary" tag that some Irish fans in particular like to use. It's absolutely ridiculous to use a pejorative term for someone trying to maximise their income. Not to mention guys like Elsom and JdV would fit the description perfectly.

I think it's just a lazy moniker tagged on to players who come for the fat check and don't put the effort in.

Teferi

Munster

Does the poll look wonky for anyone else?

awec

Munster

Blank options keep getting added.

.ak

It's been a problem with polls for last while I think.... Not just this one, seems to be a boards.ie issue.

Rightwing

Toulon

Clermont are without question the best team in Europe, and by a distance. Probably have the best squad ever seen in the competition. No team has ever won all 6 matches in their group and gone on to win it, hopefully the 'curse of 6' will strike again and Munster against all odds, against all expectations will go on to win it.

CatFromHue

Clermont are a massive -11 for the SF!!

Leinster went to SMM with a relatively simple game plan this season and could have/should have gotten a draw at least. It is very possible that Munster will give them a right good game and possible for them to even squeek a win!

Clermont as I've said above are massive massive favourites for this game so the pressure is all on them. They're 2nd in the Top 14 and their next two games are against the team above them and the team below them, add that into the massive favourites they are for the Munster game could easily see them take their eye off that game.

I don't know who'll win the comp but Munster are still in the reckoning I think.

Edit: To critically analyse their group it would be fair to say it wasn't the hardest and was relatively straight forward really. Then their QF was at home to a team with no pedigree in the comp and who are 6th in the Top 14. Yes they beat Leinster twice but when the pressure was really on them in the first game they didn't look like world beaters then. The pressure was off them when they came to Dublin as at that stage they were on 14pts compared to Leinsters 9.

For Paws

Munster

Difficult to see Saracens progress any further. Their position in the EP is not a reliable indicator. Of the 6 EP teams, (Gloucester, Wasps, Harlequins, Bath, Leicester & Sarries) who were involved in QF European matches (5 at home) only Saracens won. Yet these are the same teams that dominate the league which Saracens lead.

Their kick & chase game and the sheer industry of their defense will see off most good teams, but kicking possession away to teams with the class of Clermont or Toulon will mean having to rely on their opponents having a bad day with ball in hand (think Eng v Ire). Might happen, but probably won't (think Eng v Wales).

CatFromHue

For Paws wrote: »

Difficult to see Saracens progress any further. Their position in the EP is not a reliable indicator. Of the 6 EP teams, (Gloucester, Wasps, Harlequins, Bath, Leicester & Sarries) who were involved in QF European matches (5 at home) only Saracens won. Yet these are the same teams that dominate the league which Saracens lead.

Their kick & chase game and the sheer industry of their defense will see off most good teams, but kicking possession away to teams with the class of Clermont or Toulon will mean having to rely on their opponents having a bad day with ball in hand (think Eng v Ire). Might happen, but probably won't (think Eng v Wales).

Saracens beat Leicester away and drew with them at home, Leicester narrowly lost to Toulon.

Saracens have also beaten the other 2 top top 4 teams in the league home and away.

funtime93

Anyone but Saracens.Absolutely hate them and their style of play.Would love to see Farrell or Ashton get thumped.

For Paws

Munster

CatFromHue wrote: »

Saracens beat Leicester away and drew with them at home, Leicester narrowly lost to Toulon.

Saracens have also beaten the other 2 top top 4 teams in the league home and away.

Your second point is exactly what I was pointing out. Currently Sarries are the best team in the EP. But where does that put them in European terms.
(Yes, I realise they're in the last 4 standing, but I still don't think they'll progress).

As to you first point. Wales beat England, France, Scotland & Italy, but since Ireland beat Wales does that make us better than Wales ?

CatFromHue

Ha, yeah we're the real 6N Champions

I don't know if they're going to progress but equally I don't know if Toulon can beat them either. They are getting better and better in Europe so who knows.

Neoulous

Munster

Swiwi wrote: »

Merci bien Neoulous pour cette explication détaillée. Au fait, on vous attend avec plaisir chez nous en juin pour ces rematchs de la finale da la coupe du monde de rugby. J'espère quand même que vous allez faire une meilleure prestation par rapport au tournoi des 6N!

(mods, in the spirit of rugby fraternity, please permit this brief foray away from English...)

Mais de rien

I certainly hope we propose a better standard of rugby than the one from this last 6N embarrassment or we'll enter the record book for the biggest thrashing ever in the history of the sport ^^

Nermal wrote: »

Indeed. They have 13 times our population, and access to talent from various former and current colonies in Polynesia and Africa. They should be fielding 52 clubs on roughly equal footing with the Irish provinces without having to buy anywhere near the talent they do.

Tox56 wrote: »

It's not the same in that sense no, but then again the entire population of Ireland is half that of Paris alone! It's not a fair comparison in that sense either.

In their game last Friday v Wasps, Leinster had 14 Irish-Qualified players in their starting 15, and a further 6 on the bench. Of that 20 I'd consider 15 of them to be homegrown. By contrast, just 9 of the Toulon matchday 23 v Leicester were French qualified, and the majority of those were bought from other French clubs.

It's not a great sample size but that is a huge disparity. Toulon are the worst offenders (and you do recognise that), but even look at Clermont.

While admittedly their bench is packed with French players, if Brock James had been fit for the game v Montpellier on Saturday, they would have had just 6 French players in their starting 15. When they have the spending power to bring in great foreign players and, as you say, are able to attract the best of a large French rugby playing population, it's got to be difficult for the Irish clubs to compete.

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Neoulous wrote: »

You just can not compare the Irish Provinces and the French clubs. Selecting the "local" players between 4 and ~ 20 clubs is not the same thing.

I agree with the sentiment, but this line is pretty ridiculous!

When I said that you can't compare the selection between 4 provinces and ~ 20 (competititve) teams I was not implying it's easier or tougher for one or the other. Just a "raw" statement that you can not compare.

To be able to compare you'd have not only to take the country's population into account but more importantly the whole rugby system of both countries. I referred to the tax system, I have no precise idea of how it works in both country but it has to be taken into account. The link with the federation too. What model the federation is supporting ? Look at England where the federation encourages the English clubs to have a certain amount of English players so that they get some kind of grant. In France it's the opposite: if you don't have a minimum amount of French players you get taxed. This all-repressive system is not working. Maybe we're not asking the right questions, that's what I meant.

And in Ireland, how does the Provinces system works in detail? What is the connection with the smaller clubs? How does the rugby academies work ? For example in Dublin, the players come from the Leinster academy or the smaller clubs academies ? I read here once that the Irish schools/universities "produce" players too.

I feel you need to encompass all that to make a valid comparison than just "Toulon is buying success" and "Leinster/Munster/Ulster are producing success" which was the idea I was responding to .

P_1

CatFromHue wrote: »

Clermont are a massive -11 for the SF!!

Leinster went to SMM with a relatively simple game plan this season and could have/should have gotten a draw at least. It is very possible that Munster will give them a right good game and possible for them to even squeek a win!

Clermont as I've said above are massive massive favourites for this game so the pressure is all on them. They're 2nd in the Top 14 and their next two games are against the team above them and the team below them, add that into the massive favourites they are for the Munster game could easily see them take their eye off that game.

I don't know who'll win the comp but Munster are still in the reckoning I think.

Edit: To critically analyse their group it would be fair to say it wasn't the hardest and was relatively straight forward really. Then their QF was at home to a team with no pedigree in the comp and who are 6th in the Top 14. Yes they beat Leinster twice but when the pressure was really on them in the first game they didn't look like world beaters then. The pressure was off them when they came to Dublin as at that stage they were on 14pts compared to Leinsters 9.

For context sake last year's semi final was a scr handicap. The bookies clearly think that Munster don't have much hope for the semi (last I checked Munster were 5/1 to win the match)

Rightwing

Toulon

P_1 wrote: »

For context sake last year's semi final was a scr handicap. The bookies clearly think that Munster don't have much hope for the semi (last I checked Munster were 5/1 to win the match)

Cotter claims Clermont are still hurting from last year's semi. They've been targetting the H Cup big time this year.

desertcircus

Just cannot see past Clermont. They're unbelievably strong, and having been turfed out by Leinster in three of the previous four years, they won home and away this time round. Munster could beat them, but they'll need to have the game of their lives while Clermont play their worst home game in four years, and even then it'd probably come down to a single score. As for the final: Lansdowne Road will be virtually home territory for them. They know the stadium, the locals will be cheering for them: Saracens or Toulon will be effectively playing an away game.