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Youths get 15 years for murder of feminist activist in Mexico
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Patrick2010 wrote: »So?. Mexican justice system is notoriously corrupt. How would the AG know that?
He is the state prosecutor who oversaw the successful prosecution of the case which has resulted in the guilty parties imprisoned. If you wish to insinuate Carlos Manuel Salas is corrupt then it is up to you to prove it. As far as I am concerned I am happy enough to take his word for it that this was completely unrelated to her activism as I think he knows a bit more about the case than anyone here.0 -
I never could get that line of reasoning, it's a bit like saying we shouldn't have bothered about Apartheid because we'd our own discriminatory society in Northern Ireland to worry about.
It's odd that the whataboutery comes out on a thread about a feminist activist, well actually it isn't odd, par for the course.
Thats actually a pretty good example of valid whataboutery to be honest considering how little the Republic did, and to illustrate here's a nice example, Dr. Verwoerd of South Africa was quoted as that he would exchange all of South Africas legislation for just one section of the emergency powers act.
Ok whataboutery normally occurs when people try and distract from a problem with pointing out there's a group less commonly harmed thats not being talked about. In the case here for this type of violence, men are by far the biggest victims, and this isn't even gendered violence, if you want to get brownie points for social conscious link to a story about the possible serial killers and all the rapes, something thats actually gendered violence.
Also isn;t it a bit sexist to consider that a woman life is more precious, or the counter point that woman are so passive and non violent and not reckless that of course her death is more important than the much larger amount of male deaths because obviously its not her fault because she's a woman.
(not implying that it is her fault but I am indicating how people judge the much greater amount of violence inflected against the men of the city).
And finally and harshly its not particularly interesting in the context of mexico's spiralling decline into an actual war on drugs where outragous stuff is happening constantly.0 -
Mr Benevolent wrote: »Again, how is this relevant to us?
AH is not just for events that happen in your little world in case you haven't noticed. Show some compassion. RIP to this young girl and condolences to her family. These scum deserve more than 15 years.0 -
Nodin will you stop, you're taking me up completely wrong.?
Nope. Bang.On.The.Money.My point was, and still is, that we can fill AH with threads about individual cases like that in the OP, but before one does that, and I have no doubt old hippy or yourself care about the world and care about people, so what have you done CLOSER TO HOME, before you concerned yourself with what happens in a town in Mexico?
O well {self serving anecdote that is unprovable] and [more smug references to same].0 -
Patrick2010 wrote: »So?. Mexican justice system is notoriously corrupt. How would the AG know that?
So, you're basically saying that
The 15 year olds who killed her were actually international assassins who'd been targeting her because of who she was
The Mexican prosecutor was taking brown envelopes to tell everyone that this was just another killing in a town where killing has become something of the local sport
Yeah, that certainly sounds more plausible than the version that's out there
Look I've made you a tinfoil hat.......0 -
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Nope. Bang.On.The.Money.
O well {self serving anecdote that is unprovable] and [more smug references to same].
If you'd care enough to actually answer the question rather than trying to attack the poster Nodin that'd be great thanks. You're coming off like you just have a woeful chip on your shoulder simply because somebody doesn't share your world view. It's embarrassingly petty and just looks like you have no interest in contributing to the thread, instead preferring to make personal and quite frankly silly comments.0 -
If you'd care enough to actually answer the question rather than trying to attack the poster Nodin that'd be great thanks. You're coming off like you just have a woeful chip on your shoulder simply because somebody doesn't share your world view. It's embarrassingly petty and just looks like you have no interest in contributing to the thread, instead preferring to make personal and quite frankly silly comments.
No for reasons obvious from the the last post.
I find it a bit rich when somebody uses a murder, regardless of how distant, to trot out some self serving smarm and then talks about chips on shoulders.0 -
No for reasons obvious from the the last post.
I find it a bit rich when somebody uses a murder, regardless of how distant, to trot out some self serving smarm and then talks about chips on shoulders.
But I didn't use a murder for anything Nodin. I was giving my opinion on the relevance of the OP to an Irish audience. Looking out for the people in their local community is far more relevant and closer to home than something that happens in a small town in Mexico on an apparently regular basis.
What can one Irish individual, sitting at their keyboard, do to stem the violence in a small town in Mexico? Absolute damn all. If they care about the world like they say they do, then start small, it doesn't take grand gestures, and it's a hell of a lot more effective than just clicking the "like" or the "thanks" button to add to the other five hundred or however many futile validation efforts.0 -
But I didn't use a murder for anything Nodin. I was giving my opinion on the relevance of the OP to an Irish audience. Looking out for the people in their local community is far more relevant and closer to home than something that happens in a small town in Mexico on an apparently regular basis.
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No, you were using it to blow your own trumpet in a singularily nauseating manner.0 -
So, you're basically saying that
The 15 year olds who killed her were actually international assassins who'd been targeting her because of who she was
The Mexican prosecutor was taking brown envelopes to tell everyone that this was just another killing in a town where killing has become something of the local sport
Yeah, that certainly sounds more plausible than the version that's out there
Look I've made you a tinfoil hat.......
Where did I say they were international assasins?, could be guys like these operating in the very city?
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2035819,00.html
The most striking thing about the skinny 14-year-old was his eyes. They looked like they belonged to a bloodied war veteran — which, of course, he was, being in prison for two killings. As I talked to him in a prison cell, Miguel Angel Cantu opened those eyes wide in a penetrating glare of hatred and anger that could strike fear into grown men. But those eyes could not hide the suffering behind them. Cantu had killed two men in Ciudad Juárez street beefs. It was low-level gangbanger stuff. But the Juárez prison's director of inmates, Oswaldo Hogaz, warned that the powerful cartels would soon hire adolescents like Cantu to do their dirty work. "These kids are cheap, bloodthirsty, and they know the government can't punish them much," he said.0 -
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Patrick2010 wrote: »Where did I say they were international assasins?, could be guys like these operating in the very city?
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2035819,00.html
The most striking thing about the skinny 14-year-old was his eyes. They looked like they belonged to a bloodied war veteran — which, of course, he was, being in prison for two killings. As I talked to him in a prison cell, Miguel Angel Cantu opened those eyes wide in a penetrating glare of hatred and anger that could strike fear into grown men. But those eyes could not hide the suffering behind them. Cantu had killed two men in Ciudad Juárez street beefs. It was low-level gangbanger stuff. But the Juárez prison's director of inmates, Oswaldo Hogaz, warned that the powerful cartels would soon hire adolescents like Cantu to do their dirty work. "These kids are cheap, bloodthirsty, and they know the government can't punish them much," he said.
So if someone specifically targetted the victim in this case then why do they first go to the effort to make the killing look like an intentional execution by cutting off her hand and then go to the effort, as you suggested earlier, to bribe officials into making an official pronouncement that this was a random attack unconnected to her activism? The only benefit in killing her would be to use her as a warning to other activists. Going out of their way to make it look like a random attack after first making it look like an intentional execution completely defeats this purpose and costs them whatever it takes to bribe the most senior prosecutor in the province.
Occam's Razor has to win out here. By far the most plausible scenario is just as the prosecutor said, a random attack.0 -
Pompey Magnus wrote: »So if someone specifically targetted the victim in this case then why do they first go to the effort to make the killing look like an intentional execution by cutting off her hand and then go to the effort, as you suggested earlier, to bribe officials into making an official pronouncement that this was a random attack unconnected to her activism? The only benefit in killing her would be to use her as a warning to other activists. Going out of their way to make it look like a random attack after first making it look like an intentional execution completely defeats this purpose and costs them whatever it takes to bribe the most senior prosecutor in the province.
Occam's Razor has to win out here. By far the most plausible scenario is just as the prosecutor said, a random attack.
But replace random attack with 'anti violence activist goes home with 3 random youths to drink and then claims she is an undercover cop' and it starts to get less plausible0 -
What the hell does this have to do with the thread?Thanks Nodin, any chance you could find me a link in the media about the two eight year old girls I talked to yesterday while waiting for the bus who told me all about what they get up to with their eleven year old "boyfriends", "because there's nothing else to do around here".
Two hours later I had a friend of mine who works in Smyths Toy Stores deliver out a couple of outdoor play sets and some footballs. Didn't cost me a whole pile and it gave them something else to do besides being holed up in burned out houses having sex.
Don't even get me started about biscuits! I gave the cleaner money yesterday to get some decent chocolate biscuits for the office because all they had when I looked in the press was them rich tea crap. My boss out there had a shìt fit.
I hope she doesn't find out who was responsible for giving the swings and footballs to the children, seeing as they're not covered by insurance either, be terrible if they grazed their knees like while the council dragged it's heels over a playground that's still only in the planning stages!0 -
No, you were using it to blow your own trumpet in a singularily nauseating manner.
Ahh get down off your high horse Nodin, fairness.
The whole point of my issue with the OP is that it was a single story from the other side of the world, that nobody in this country would have the power to do anything about, and you're taking issue with the fact that I used an example of what I actually do a lot closer to home to improve the lives of people within my own community?
Right Nodin, you keep fighting the good fight there from behind your keyboard.0 -
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riffmongous wrote: »But replace random attack with 'anti violence activist goes home with 3 random youths to drink and then claims she is an undercover cop' and it starts to get less plausible
Amnesty International supported the prosecution's claim, saying that her death did not appear to be related to her activism (link). Perhaps the drug lords have Amnesty International bribed also in order to support their cover up?
There is nothing too implausible with the story as presented by the prosecution. The scenario in which she is intentionally executed and then her execution is covered up to the highest level of the state in order to make the execution look like a random killing disguised as an execution is full of conjecture, holes and inconsistencies at every step.0 -
People who accuse others of "pretending to be upset" actually mean that they personally don't give a sh1t and therefore it isn't possible that anyone else does.
I know what you mean, but at the same time, I can see people's point here - it doesn't appear that she was murdered due to being a woman, rather due to being in the wrong place with extremely dangerous, violent people and saying the wrong things. I'm not a fan of factoring in the anti women angle when there isn't any evidence for it. It fosters an "us and them" feeling for some men, and takes away from the genuine cases of gender-based violence. It seems the violence against women is being factored in here because she is a feminist, but where is the evidence that that is why she was killed?
But we are going on the convicted murderers words, we don't know, maybe they did know her, she seemed to have a high profile in Mexico, it could well be just an excuse used by the defendants to make it look better.
As for the whataboutery, I don't know, say it was a young child that got attention, would we be having the same, what about the men? points. I don't think so.It wasn't honestly meant to be acting like an ass or anything K-9, it was just, well, to use your example of appartheid- what could raising awareness of issue in Ireland, do to effect the situation in South Africa?
It was the "one single incident in a town in Mexico that very few people will ever have heard of" moreso than whether it was a woman, or a feminist or anything else. It's like I said- should we fill AH with articles we just read about that happened on the other side of the world that we can do nothing about?
Here's an interesting take on it that I read a couple of years back-
http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html
Oh I know you weren't being an ass. I suppose people tend to forget or many don't even know about the 1,000's killed in the Mexican drug war. If this case enlightens a good few people about it, well this publicity is worth something. Not much we can do about it, but at least more people know what's going on.RDM_83 again wrote: »Ok whataboutery normally occurs when people try and distract from a problem with pointing out there's a group less commonly harmed thats not being talked about. In the case here for this type of violence, men are by far the biggest victims, and this isn't even gendered violence, if you want to get brownie points for social conscious link to a story about the possible serial killers and all the rapes, something thats actually gendered violence.
Also isn;t it a bit sexist to consider that a woman life is more precious, or the counter point that woman are so passive and non violent and not reckless that of course her death is more important than the much larger amount of male deaths because obviously its not her fault because she's a woman.
(not implying that it is her fault but I am indicating how people judge the much greater amount of violence inflected against the men of the city).
And finally and harshly its not particularly interesting in the context of mexico's spiralling decline into an actual war on drugs where outragous stuff is happening constantly.
Ach, unfortunately media works like that today.
From reading the article this woman would seem to have had her campaign before the drug wars started and was a well known figure before it, that would seem to be why it was high profile, she highlighted the deaths of 300 or so women in the 90's, pre the drug wars.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Ahh get down off your high horse Nodin, fairness.
The whole point of my issue with the OP is that it was a single story from the other side of the world, that nobody in this country would have the power to do anything about, and you're taking issue with the fact that I used an example of what I actually do a lot closer to home to improve the lives of people within my own community?
Right Nodin, you keep fighting the good fight there from behind your keyboard.
Well unless you are going to go a one man crusade on every single thread about a foreign murder I really don't see why you are picking this specific thread to do it.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Well unless you are going to go a one man crusade on every single thread about a foreign murder I really don't see why you are picking this specific thread to do it.
Straw that broke the camel's back?
I won't and don't go on crusades in every thread in fairness, like I haven't gone near the guy in England who murdered his own children thread, I didn't go near the woman raped on a bus in India thread, and there's tons more threads I read but just thought "I wonder how many posters have actually done anything to improve the lives of the people in their own community before they expect everyone to share their outrage at an incident that happens in a different country?"
It wasn't specifically the content of the OP, but the fact that posting international stories on an Irish website, aimed at an Irish audience, feels like just a futile exercise. I mean, raise awareness, and that's fine, but what can anyone in Ireland ACTUALLY do about an incident that happened in Mexico? An incident that by all accounts is by no means an isolated one over there.
When it's pointed out then that it doesn't take a lot to effect change in the world by starting within their own community, some posters took objection to the fact that it might require them to step out from behind the keyboard.
It's all fine making people "aware" of an "issue", but isn't it always better to lead by example?0 -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-22016263
I was not aware of the scale of violence towards women in Cuidad Jarez. A brave, strong woman who's life was ended brutally.
As has been pointed out, there is violence against everyone in Cuidad Jarez - not just women.
If I was to be murdered there in the morning would there be a thread about the conservative middle aged banker that was murdered? Would there be thinly veiled talk about positive discrimination for conservative middle aged bankers and other mechanisms that promote "equality" in society?
Typical sensationalist feminist propaganda hijacking the murder of a defenceless woman to aid their political ends. They have no more respect for this woman than the savages that slaughtered her.0 -
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As has been pointed out, there is violence against everyone in Cuidad Jarez - not just women.
If I was to be murdered there in the morning would there be a thread about the conservative middle aged banker that was murdered? Would there be thinly veiled talk about positive discrimination for conservative middle aged bankers and other mechanisms that promote "equality" in society?
Typical sensationalist feminist propaganda hijacking the murder of a defenceless woman to aid their political ends. They have no more respect for this woman than the savages that slaughtered her.
If you were killed because you are a conservative middle aged banker then yeah there would be threads about it. I think regarding this story, it seems quite suspicious that her status as an activist had nothing to do with her murder.0 -
riffmongous wrote: »If you were killed because you are a conservative middle aged banker then yeah there would be threads about it. I think regarding this story, it seems quite suspicious that her status as an activist had nothing to do with her murder.
No, I doubt there would be. Perhaps an honourable mention in the next ACCA magasine but I even doubt that.
She was an activist. WOW. Activists, peacekeepers, medics etc get killed the whole time in developing countries.0 -
Straw that broke the camel's back?
I won't and don't go on crusades in every thread in fairness, like I haven't gone near the guy in England who murdered his own children thread, I didn't go near the woman raped on a bus in India thread, and there's tons more threads I read but just thought "I wonder how many posters have actually done anything to improve the lives of the people in their own community before they expect everyone to share their outrage at an incident that happens in a different country?"
It wasn't specifically the content of the OP, but the fact that posting international stories on an Irish website, aimed at an Irish audience, feels like just a futile exercise. I mean, raise awareness, and that's fine, but what can anyone in Ireland ACTUALLY do about an incident that happened in Mexico? An incident that by all accounts is by no means an isolated one over there.
When it's pointed out then that it doesn't take a lot to effect change in the world by starting within their own community, some posters took objection to the fact that it might require them to step out from behind the keyboard.
It's all fine making people "aware" of an "issue", but isn't it always better to lead by example?
Ach, I know what you are saying, but still, it's a bit like the "why should we help people abroad?" argument. I just fundamentally disagree with it. Take the Tsunami, why should we donate to those countries, they can just help themselves.
Problem is, sometimes countries can't help themselves. Western Europe would struggle with something like a Tsunami, never mind poor countries like Indonesia.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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riffmongous wrote: »I think regarding this story, it seems quite suspicious that her status as an activist had nothing to do with her murder.
Why, what part of the state's prosecution do you not believe? Someone who is an activist is no more immune to a random, unplanned attack than anyone else.
I admit it makes for a better news story to make it out that some shadowy illegal organisation had this all planned out to silence a critic and the corruption goes all the way to the top but we don't live in Hollywood, most of the time the truth is far less exciting, like here where a few teenage guys high on drugs get freaked out when the believe they have been socialising with a cop and they panic.0 -
Pompey Magnus wrote: »Why, what part of the state's prosecution do you not believe? Someone who is an activist is no more immune to a random, unplanned attack than anyone else.
I admit it makes for a better news story to make it out that some shadowy illegal organisation had this all planned out to silence a critic and the corruption goes all the way to the top but we don't live in Hollywood, most of the time the truth is far less exciting, like here where a few teenage guys high on drugs get freaked out when the believe they have been socialising with a cop and they panic.
If they admitted they killed here because of her profile they'd probably get a longer sentence. Put in the bit about a police officer, given the Mexican drug wars, people might understand it more and give a lesser sentence.
We'll never get her version of events seeing as she is dead, all we have are convicted murderers versions.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Pompey Magnus wrote: »They got the maximum sentence permissible for juveniles.
True, there's a huge propaganda war in the Mexico drug wars.
I think the story here is how their ages isn't a big story. Extremely sad lads of those ages are involved in stuff like this.
That still doesn't mean this story isn't newsworthy, a pretty influential Mexican feminist and human rights activist (from pre the drug wars) got murdered in a gruesome way.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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imo More than likely targeted for who she was and what she stood for, just like the mayor before her, and the mayor before that. and <if <i recall properly the mayor or assistant mayor before that. Unfortunatly just another day in Ciudad de Juarez.0
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Ach, I know what you are saying, but still, it's a bit like the "why should we help people abroad?" argument. I just fundamentally disagree with it. Take the Tsunami, why should we donate to those countries, they can just help themselves.
Ah no, I'm not saying we shouldn't help people abroad, what I'm saying is we should start within our own communities and think about the issues within our own communities, before we focus on International issues beyond our control.
I'm trying to think of a way to explain what's in my head, but it's hard to put it into words, I got ripped on earlier when I used an example from my own personal experience but fcuk me it's difficult to say what I mean without using examples and hoping that people will understand where I'm coming from.
OK, so you've raised awareness, but what then? People are still dying in Mexico every day. It's a cultural issue. In order to change the behaviour, you have to change the way of thinking. You can't do that from behind your keyboard. You actually have to GO to Mexico and start at the beginning, with the youngest generation. You have the power to lead by example and teach them that they don't have to grow up in a violent society, they don't have to grow up in a country devastated by drug wars.
Or you could just stay at home and fume about it on the Internet, where it'll be forgotten about my most people less than five minutes later.Problem is, sometimes countries can't help themselves. Western Europe would struggle with something like a Tsunami, never mind poor countries like Indonesia.
Well in fairness, a tsunami is a bad example because it's a natural disaster, and not an issue caused by society. Western Europe has been through two wars in the last century and we've come out of it alright.0 -
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As for the whataboutery, I don't know, say it was a young child that got attention, would we be having the same, what about the men? points. I don't think so.
No it wouldn't even be a story unless it was particularly gruesome and it the context of the stories in the news about mexico it would have to be astoundingly so, and I don't think it would be framed in a violence against children standpoint, more about a violent society.
My problem with this is, that the OP is not framed about the long history of violence against woman in Mexico (which has been high profile for years anyway) and is anyway being overshadowed by the spiralling death tolls since the late 2000's from the drugs war, its being framed as her murder indicates the problem of violence against woman rather than 'this womans work revealed huge gender violence' and she has been killed
I agree about the media thing though, the killing of that beauty queen in a shoot out was an even better example of the "she's attractive and mildly famous" focus (not disparaging her charity/advocacy work here btw)Ach, I know what you are saying, but still, it's a bit like the "why should we help people abroad?" argument. I just fundamentally disagree with it. Take the Tsunami, why should we donate to those countries, they can just help themselves.
Problem is, sometimes countries can't help themselves. Western Europe would struggle with something like a Tsunami, never mind poor countries like Indonesia.
But in this situation awareness does little to nothing as there's little or nothing we can do apart from perhaps donate to local charities dealing with victims, there's huge amount of money being pumped from all sides into Mexico and its not a 3rd world country by most accounts, and I know very very few problems have a simple solution but in the case here there genuinely is little an irish person can do (apart from the next time they visit the states maybe not buy any coke and I don't think that would be the most effective boycott ever)0
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