Patrick2010 wrote: » So?. Mexican justice system is notoriously corrupt. How would the AG know that?
K-9 wrote: » I never could get that line of reasoning, it's a bit like saying we shouldn't have bothered about Apartheid because we'd our own discriminatory society in Northern Ireland to worry about. It's odd that the whataboutery comes out on a thread about a feminist activist, well actually it isn't odd, par for the course.
Mr Benevolent wrote: » Again, how is this relevant to us?
Czarcasm wrote: » Nodin will you stop, you're taking me up completely wrong.?
Czarcasm wrote: » My point was, and still is, that we can fill AH with threads about individual cases like that in the OP, but before one does that, and I have no doubt old hippy or yourself care about the world and care about people, so what have you done CLOSER TO HOME, before you concerned yourself with what happens in a town in Mexico?
Nodin wrote: » Nope. Bang.On.The.Money. O well {self serving anecdote that is unprovable] and [more smug references to same].
Czarcasm wrote: » If you'd care enough to actually answer the question rather than trying to attack the poster Nodin that'd be great thanks. You're coming off like you just have a woeful chip on your shoulder simply because somebody doesn't share your world view. It's embarrassingly petty and just looks like you have no interest in contributing to the thread, instead preferring to make personal and quite frankly silly comments.
Nodin wrote: » No for reasons obvious from the the last post. I find it a bit rich when somebody uses a murder, regardless of how distant, to trot out some self serving smarm and then talks about chips on shoulders.
Czarcasm wrote: » But I didn't use a murder for anything Nodin. I was giving my opinion on the relevance of the OP to an Irish audience. Looking out for the people in their local community is far more relevant and closer to home than something that happens in a small town in Mexico on an apparently regular basis. .........
tritium wrote: » So, you're basically saying that The 15 year olds who killed her were actually international assassins who'd been targeting her because of who she was The Mexican prosecutor was taking brown envelopes to tell everyone that this was just another killing in a town where killing has become something of the local sport Yeah, that certainly sounds more plausible than the version that's out there Look I've made you a tinfoil hat.......
Patrick2010 wrote: » Where did I say they were international assasins?, could be guys like these operating in the very city?http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2035819,00.htmlThe most striking thing about the skinny 14-year-old was his eyes. They looked like they belonged to a bloodied war veteran — which, of course, he was, being in prison for two killings. As I talked to him in a prison cell, Miguel Angel Cantu opened those eyes wide in a penetrating glare of hatred and anger that could strike fear into grown men. But those eyes could not hide the suffering behind them. Cantu had killed two men in Ciudad Juárez street beefs. It was low-level gangbanger stuff. But the Juárez prison's director of inmates, Oswaldo Hogaz, warned that the powerful cartels would soon hire adolescents like Cantu to do their dirty work. "These kids are cheap, bloodthirsty, and they know the government can't punish them much," he said. Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2035819,00.html#ixzz2PXIMYUo8
Pompey Magnus wrote: » So if someone specifically targetted the victim in this case then why do they first go to the effort to make the killing look like an intentional execution by cutting off her hand and then go to the effort, as you suggested earlier, to bribe officials into making an official pronouncement that this was a random attack unconnected to her activism? The only benefit in killing her would be to use her as a warning to other activists. Going out of their way to make it look like a random attack after first making it look like an intentional execution completely defeats this purpose and costs them whatever it takes to bribe the most senior prosecutor in the province. Occam's Razor has to win out here. By far the most plausible scenario is just as the prosecutor said, a random attack.
Czarcasm wrote: » Thanks Nodin, any chance you could find me a link in the media about the two eight year old girls I talked to yesterday while waiting for the bus who told me all about what they get up to with their eleven year old "boyfriends", "because there's nothing else to do around here". Two hours later I had a friend of mine who works in Smyths Toy Stores deliver out a couple of outdoor play sets and some footballs. Didn't cost me a whole pile and it gave them something else to do besides being holed up in burned out houses having sex. Don't even get me started about biscuits! I gave the cleaner money yesterday to get some decent chocolate biscuits for the office because all they had when I looked in the press was them rich tea crap. My boss out there had a shìt fit. I hope she doesn't find out who was responsible for giving the swings and footballs to the children, seeing as they're not covered by insurance either, be terrible if they grazed their knees like while the council dragged it's heels over a playground that's still only in the planning stages!
Nodin wrote: » No, you were using it to blow your own trumpet in a singularily nauseating manner.
SeanW wrote: » What the hell does this have to do with the thread?
SeanW wrote: » Ahh get down off your high horse Nodin, fairness.
riffmongous wrote: » But replace random attack with 'anti violence activist goes home with 3 random youths to drink and then claims she is an undercover cop' and it starts to get less plausible
Madam_X wrote: » People who accuse others of "pretending to be upset" actually mean that they personally don't give a sh1t and therefore it isn't possible that anyone else does. I know what you mean, but at the same time, I can see people's point here - it doesn't appear that she was murdered due to being a woman, rather due to being in the wrong place with extremely dangerous, violent people and saying the wrong things. I'm not a fan of factoring in the anti women angle when there isn't any evidence for it. It fosters an "us and them" feeling for some men, and takes away from the genuine cases of gender-based violence. It seems the violence against women is being factored in here because she is a feminist, but where is the evidence that that is why she was killed?
Czarcasm wrote: » It wasn't honestly meant to be acting like an ass or anything K-9, it was just, well, to use your example of appartheid- what could raising awareness of issue in Ireland, do to effect the situation in South Africa? It was the "one single incident in a town in Mexico that very few people will ever have heard of" moreso than whether it was a woman, or a feminist or anything else. It's like I said- should we fill AH with articles we just read about that happened on the other side of the world that we can do nothing about? Here's an interesting take on it that I read a couple of years back-http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html
RDM_83 again wrote: » Ok whataboutery normally occurs when people try and distract from a problem with pointing out there's a group less commonly harmed thats not being talked about. In the case here for this type of violence, men are by far the biggest victims, and this isn't even gendered violence, if you want to get brownie points for social conscious link to a story about the possible serial killers and all the rapes, something thats actually gendered violence. Also isn;t it a bit sexist to consider that a woman life is more precious, or the counter point that woman are so passive and non violent and not reckless that of course her death is more important than the much larger amount of male deaths because obviously its not her fault because she's a woman. (not implying that it is her fault but I am indicating how people judge the much greater amount of violence inflected against the men of the city). And finally and harshly its not particularly interesting in the context of mexico's spiralling decline into an actual war on drugs where outragous stuff is happening constantly.
Czarcasm wrote: » Ahh get down off your high horse Nodin, fairness. The whole point of my issue with the OP is that it was a single story from the other side of the world, that nobody in this country would have the power to do anything about, and you're taking issue with the fact that I used an example of what I actually do a lot closer to home to improve the lives of people within my own community? Right Nodin, you keep fighting the good fight there from behind your keyboard.
K-9 wrote: » Well unless you are going to go a one man crusade on every single thread about a foreign murder I really don't see why you are picking this specific thread to do it.
old hippy wrote: » http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-22016263 I was not aware of the scale of violence towards women in Cuidad Jarez. A brave, strong woman who's life was ended brutally.
Robroy36 wrote: » As has been pointed out, there is violence against everyone in Cuidad Jarez - not just women. If I was to be murdered there in the morning would there be a thread about the conservative middle aged banker that was murdered? Would there be thinly veiled talk about positive discrimination for conservative middle aged bankers and other mechanisms that promote "equality" in society? Typical sensationalist feminist propaganda hijacking the murder of a defenceless woman to aid their political ends. They have no more respect for this woman than the savages that slaughtered her.
riffmongous wrote: » If you were killed because you are a conservative middle aged banker then yeah there would be threads about it. I think regarding this story, it seems quite suspicious that her status as an activist had nothing to do with her murder.
Czarcasm wrote: » Straw that broke the camel's back? I won't and don't go on crusades in every thread in fairness, like I haven't gone near the guy in England who murdered his own children thread, I didn't go near the woman raped on a bus in India thread, and there's tons more threads I read but just thought "I wonder how many posters have actually done anything to improve the lives of the people in their own community before they expect everyone to share their outrage at an incident that happens in a different country?" It wasn't specifically the content of the OP, but the fact that posting international stories on an Irish website, aimed at an Irish audience, feels like just a futile exercise. I mean, raise awareness, and that's fine, but what can anyone in Ireland ACTUALLY do about an incident that happened in Mexico? An incident that by all accounts is by no means an isolated one over there. When it's pointed out then that it doesn't take a lot to effect change in the world by starting within their own community, some posters took objection to the fact that it might require them to step out from behind the keyboard. It's all fine making people "aware" of an "issue", but isn't it always better to lead by example?
riffmongous wrote: » I think regarding this story, it seems quite suspicious that her status as an activist had nothing to do with her murder.
Pompey Magnus wrote: » Why, what part of the state's prosecution do you not believe? Someone who is an activist is no more immune to a random, unplanned attack than anyone else. I admit it makes for a better news story to make it out that some shadowy illegal organisation had this all planned out to silence a critic and the corruption goes all the way to the top but we don't live in Hollywood, most of the time the truth is far less exciting, like here where a few teenage guys high on drugs get freaked out when the believe they have been socialising with a cop and they panic.
K-9 wrote: » If they admitted they killed here because of her profile they'd probably get a longer sentence.
Pompey Magnus wrote: » They got the maximum sentence permissible for juveniles.
K-9 wrote: » Ach, I know what you are saying, but still, it's a bit like the "why should we help people abroad?" argument. I just fundamentally disagree with it. Take the Tsunami, why should we donate to those countries, they can just help themselves.
Problem is, sometimes countries can't help themselves. Western Europe would struggle with something like a Tsunami, never mind poor countries like Indonesia.
K-9 wrote: » As for the whataboutery, I don't know, say it was a young child that got attention, would we be having the same, what about the men? points. I don't think so.
K-9 wrote: » Ach, I know what you are saying, but still, it's a bit like the "why should we help people abroad?" argument. I just fundamentally disagree with it. Take the Tsunami, why should we donate to those countries, they can just help themselves. Problem is, sometimes countries can't help themselves. Western Europe would struggle with something like a Tsunami, never mind poor countries like Indonesia.
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