Austerity isn't really working is it?

mikemac1

And there you go, living in a textbook

KyussBishop

Anynama141 wrote: »

That's just a rubbish answer. Not knowing the law of gravity doesn't mean you won't fall if you walk off a cliff. It's either right or wrong.

Additionally, believing in theory that is analogous to believing gravity causes objects to fall up instead of down, does not mean gravity repels rather than attracts, and does not mean such a theory applies to the real world.

People interested in the real world, base their judgments on evidence, not dubious theory.

washman3

Well at least Sean Dunne is bursting his h##e laughing at us all tonight. given the green light to walk away from the carnage he has caused. wonder if he will have to choose between his Sky or VHI to be cut.?? :mad:

Anynama141

mikemac1 wrote: »

And there you go, living in a textbook

So actually using knowledge to support an argument is wrong? :rolleyes:

Anynama141

washman3 wrote: »

Well at least Sean Dunne is bursting his h##e laughing at us all tonight. given the green light to walk away from the carnage he has caused. wonder if he will have to choose between his Sky or VHI to be cut.?? :mad:

He's now one of the 'most vulnerable'. He should of course be allowed to keep his Sky subscription and his car and his house and his kids in private schools, same as the campaigners want for 'normal' people in this country.

Anynama141

KyussBishop wrote: »

Additionally, believing in theory that is analogous to believing gravity causes objects to fall up instead of down, does not mean gravity repels rather than attracts, and does not mean such a theory applies to the real world.

People interested in the real world, base their judgments on evidence, not dubious theory.

Basic economic theory has been proven again and again in the real world.

Your socialism however has failed everywhere it has been tried. And you talk about the real world?

mikemac1

Have you worked many minimum wage jobs Anynama?

Would you fell confident explaining to such a worker that removing the minimum wage will help them as their bills will come down?

And do it in plain English and not through Latin phrases or supply curve under imperfect competition?

Not everyone will go to college, many have jobs they are quite happy at so now can you tell the hotel porter and the worker in Supermacs and the shelf stackers in Tesco that cutting their wages will help them in the long run?

Anynama141

mikemac1 wrote: »

Have you worked many minimum wage jobs Anynama?

In four different jobs in Ireland, I worked for far less than today's minimum, yes. Including Tesco, Dunnes, and McDonalds.

My feelings on how I was paid did not change the basics of economics.

Three Seasons

mikemac1 wrote: »

Have you worked many minimum wage jobs Anynama?

Would you fell confident explaining to such a worker that removing the minimum wage will help them as their bills will come down?

And do it in plain English and not through Latin phrases or supply curve under imperfect competition?

Not everyone will go to college, many have jobs they are quite happy at so now can you tell the hotel porter and the worker in Supermacs and the shelf stackers in Tesco that cutting their wages will help them in the long run?

I've worked for less than minimum wage myself and my opinions then were the same as now regarding the minimum wage. It should be scrapped.

So many " vulnerable" people on the dole now have no jobs to apply for. Remove the minimum wage and give the vulnerable a chance to build a career .

mikemac1

Cut the minimum wage and leave the dole rate alone and you'll have even more on welfare.

Why would anyone scrub pots in a kitchen or mop floors in a cafe when you can get the same or more from the DSP?
Well a lot are glad to work to get out of the gaff but many others will look at the finances at the end of the week

KyussBishop

Anynama141 wrote: »

Basic economic theory has been proven again and again in the real world.

Your socialism however has failed everywhere it has been tried. And you talk about the real world?

Except where it failed, again and again, such as its failure to spot the current economic crisis coming, when a simple graph of private debt vs GDP, was all that was needed to spot it.

You only need to do a tiny amount of research, to find empirical evidence contradicting most facets of neoclassical economics; this is an economic theory that ignores the roles of debt, banks and money in its models, and states that economies tend towards equilibrium/stability, which anyone experiencing the economic crisis right now can tell you is nonsense.

Anyone who disagrees with you is a socialist, mmm? You do realize we live in a mixed capitalist/socialist economic system, with welfare and public services being very socialist?

Anynama141

KyussBishop wrote: »

Anyone who disagrees with you is a socialist, mmm? You do realize we live in a mixed capitalist/socialist economic system, with welfare and public services being very socialist?

Do you or do you not believe in socialism?

galwayrush

A minimum wage to a self employed person would be a massive improvement on income some weeks.

Anynama141

mikemac1 wrote: »

Cut the minimum wage and leave the dole rate alone and you'll have even more on welfare.

Why would anyone scrub pots in a kitchen or mop floors in a cafe when you can get the same or more from the DSP?
Well a lot are glad to work to get out of the gaff but many others will look at the finances at the end of the week

Which is why I said that you need to end the ridiculous situation whereby it pays better to sit on your arse at home than to do a useful job.

mikemac1

Aye, I switched the debate with my last post

Fair 'nuff

KyussBishop

Anynama141 wrote: »

Do you or do you not believe in socialism?

That is a meaningless question, what do you think socialism is? That's like asking if I 'believe' in social welfare or public services.

Your reduction of economic policies to beliefs, makes rather a lot of sense out of your own posts mind,

Anynama141

KyussBishop wrote: »

That is a meaningless question, what do you think socialism is? That's like asking if I 'believe' in social welfare or public services.

Your reduction of economic policies to beliefs, makes rather a lot of sense out of your own posts mind,

Well that's one way of dodging a simple question. Your economic analysis comes straight out the true socialist believer school of economics.

The current economic crisis had nothing - nothing - to do with the laws* of supply and demand. And it's worth noting that every single socialist state in history has failed.

*and these laws are not a matter of belief either. They are proven.

KyussBishop

Anynama141 wrote: »

Well that's one way of dodging a simple question. Your economic analysis comes straight out the true socialist believer school of economics.

The current economic crisis had nothing - nothing - to do with the laws* of supply and demand. And it's worth noting that every single socialist state in history has failed.

*and these laws are not a matter of belief either. They are proven.

You don't even know what you're talking about, there is no 'socialist' school of economics, and economic theory which includes socialist principals, includes neoclassical economics i.e. what you are basing your own arguments on.

If you're asking if I'm a Marxist, then I'm not; the closest views which would fit my own, would be some in the Post-Keynesian school.

You're just spouting random textbook economic terms to try and lend credence to your arguments; I didn't say anything about the laws of supply and demand, with regard to the crisis, and no, supply and demand is itself disputed, and depends upon ridiculous things such as the idea of 'perfect competition', which is nonsense.

dark crystal

Anynama141 wrote: »

I am asserting a basic rule of economics. Have a look at a marginal cost curve and a supply curve under imperfect competition.

You are making an extraordinary claim that will require you to overturn much of basic economic theory - I suppose it's a waste of time to expect you to do so.

I didn't make any extraordinary claims at all. You said the basic cost of living (oil, electricity, gas, rent, childcare etc.) would fall if the minimum wage was abolished.

I asked you to give me examples of countries where this had come to pass, as I'm not an economist and would prefer practical examples instead of theory.

Can you name any countries which back up your assertion or not?

Anynama141

KyussBishop wrote: »

You don't even know what you're talking about, there is no 'socialist' school of economics, and economic theory which includes socialist principals, includes neoclassical economics i.e. what you are basing your own arguments on.

If you're asking if I'm a Marxist, then I'm not; the closest views which would fit my own, would be some in the Post-Keynesian school.

You're just spouting random textbook economic terms to try and lend credence to your arguments; I didn't say anything about the laws of supply and demand, with regard to the crisis, and no, supply and demand is itself disputed, and depends upon ridiculous things such as the idea of 'perfect competition', which is nonsense.

So you are not a socialist, even though you spout socialist dogma on every thread that turns to economics?

Interesting...

Anynama141

dark crystal wrote: »

I didn't make any extraordinary claims at all. You said the basic cost of living (oil, electricity, gas, rent, childcare etc.) would fall if the minimum wage was abolished.

I asked you to give me examples of countries where this had come to pass, as I'm not an economist and would prefer practical examples instead of theory.

Can you name any countries which back up your assertion or not?

I've no idea what countries have done what. Why don't you do a little work here and list countries which had minimum wages and then scrapped them. Then I'll look into whether the cost of living fell in those countries.

Deal?

Bullseye1

Anynama141 wrote: »

I've no idea what countries have done what. Why don't you do a little work here and list countries which had minimum wages and then scrapped them. Then I'll look into whether the cost of living fell in those countries.

Deal?

If you and Three seasons are going to state that scrapping the minimum wage is going to drive down the cost living ateast give some proof or stop talking nonsense.

KyussBishop

Anynama141 wrote: »

So you are not a socialist, even though you spout socialist dogma on every thread that turns to economics?

Interesting...

You don't even know what socialist means do you? You are aware that stuff like public services and social welfare and the like, are very 'socialist', and thus that we live in a mixed capitalist/socialist economy?

It's a pretty lazy form of argument, that all you can come up with at this stage, is a lame attempt to pin the label 'socialist' on me, when you don't seem to understand it yourself, just that it's meant to be 'bad' somehow.

Anynama141

Bullseye1 wrote: »

If you and Three seasons are going to state that scrapping the minimum wage is going to drive down the cost living ateast give some proof or stop talking nonsense.

Can you prove that the cost of living will not go down? Or give a solid economic argument to back up that position?

I've demonstrated that basic economic laws show that the cost of living will fall as marginal costs drop. Any chance of some sort of refutation from your side, rather than just demanding more from me?

Anynama141

KyussBishop wrote: »

You don't even know what socialist means do you? You are aware that stuff like public services and social welfare and the like, are very 'socialist', and thus that we live in a mixed capitalist/socialist economy?

It's a pretty lazy form of argument, that all you can come up with at this stage, is a lame attempt to pin the label 'socialist' on me, when you don't seem to understand it yourself, just that it's meant to be 'bad' somehow.

You are a socialist and your economic beliefs (as opposed to laws) are ideologically influenced by a ridiculous fantasy system that has repeatedly failed when confronted by the real world.

But good luck with it anyway.

mikemac1

Anynama141 wrote: »

Can you prove that the cost of living will not go down? Or give a solid economic argument to back up that position?

Yes, Charlie McCreevy cutting VAT to 20% and then put it back up the usual 21% the next year as consumers saw no benefit and the businesses pocketed it

How about this boards.ie thread about businesses not passing along VAT decreases in 2011
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056315533

How about this beaut?

Was in a branch off BB's this morning. I enquired about the VAT reduction and was told "we were going to increase the price this week but have decided not to because of the reduction in VAT". Rip off Ireland goes from strength to strength.

How about boards.ie wedding forum?
dont forget to get onto your wedding suppliers re VAT reduction


And another beaut

They are saying that the price listed will not change because their operational costs food fuel electricity etc have increased yet they've reduced their prices over the last few years blah blah.

Time and again Irish businesses have shown they will not pass on savings

And your solution is not to cut ESB, rates, solicitor & accountant fees or taxes but to cut the minimum wage and hope/expect/dream that prices will go down

God bless ya

Anynama141

Based on their comprehensive reading of the evidence, Neumark and Wascher argue that minimum wages do not achieve the main goals set forth by their supporters. They reduce employment opportunities for less-skilled workers and tend to reduce their earnings; they are not an effective means of reducing poverty; and they appear to have adverse longer-term effects on wages and earnings, in part by reducing the acquisition of human capital. The authors argue that policymakers should instead look for other tools to raise the wages of low-skill workers and to provide poor families with an acceptable standard of living.

source

Exposure to minimum wages at young ages may lead to longer-run effects. Among the possible adverse longer-run effects are decreased labor market experience and accumulation of tenure, lower current labor supply because of lower wages, and diminished training and skill acquisition. Beneficial longer-run effects could arise if minimum wages increase skill acquisition, or if short-term wage increases are long-lasting. We estimate the longer-run effects of minimum wages by using information on the minimum wage history that workers have faced since potentially entering the labor market. The evidence indicates that even as individuals reach their late 20's, they work less and earn less the longer they were exposed to a higher minimum wage, especially as a teenager. The adverse longer-run effects of facing high minimum wages as a teenager are stronger for blacks. From a policy perspective, these longer-run effects of minimum wages are likely more significant than the contemporaneous effects of minimum wages on youths that are the focus of most research and policy debate.

source

There's an interesting brief analysis of the effects of the increase in the US minimum wage in 2009 here.

Anynama141

mikemac1 wrote: »

Yes, Charlie McCreevy cutting VAT to 20% and then put it back up the usual 21% the next year as consumers saw no benefit and the businesses pocketed it

How about this boards.ie thread about businesses not passing along VAT decreases in 2011
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056315533

How about this beaut?


How about boards.ie wedding forum?
dont forget to get onto your wedding suppliers re VAT reduction


And another beaut


Time and again Irish businesses have shown they will not pass on savings

And your solution is not to cut ESB, rates, solicitor & accountant fees or taxes but to cut the minimum wage and hope/expect/dream that prices will go down

God bless ya

What does VAT during a boom have to do with minimum wages in a recession?

Are you familiar with the concept of price sensitivity?

By the way, I think every cost possible should be tackled, including those you mention and others such as housing. Please don't ascribe beliefs to me that I have not expressed.

KyussBishop

Anynama141 wrote: »

You are a socialist and your economic beliefs (as opposed to laws) are ideologically influenced by a ridiculous fantasy system that has repeatedly failed when confronted by the real world.

But good luck with it anyway.

I rarely use this smiley but :rolleyes: you pick the most blindingly obvious straw-man possible: "find a way to pin the label 'socialist' on someone, then accuse them of supporting failed Communist policies".

I guess seeing as the vast majority of people here support things like public services or welfare, that makes us all dirty socialists then; bravo.

mikemac1

Anynama141 wrote: »

What does VAT during a boom have to do with minimum wages in a recession?

I quoted you on cost of living

During a boom? Hotels & others were allowed cut VAT rates in 2011!
2011 was no boom year