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Austerity isn't really working is it?

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12357…23

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    #122
    Herb Powell
    Registered Users Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭Herb Powell


    Three Seasons wrote: »
    It is a companies goal to maximise profits and so it should be with the laws of the land.

    Employees who charge more for their labour than they are worth are exploiting the company and exploiting the "little guy" ie the consumer who has to pay extra or can't afford the product.

    Prices come down without a minimum wage, you get more value per euro.

    Why are you concerned with the profits a pub makes, that's none of your business. The owners took the risk to set up the business so they are entitled earn as much as they can. They OWE YOU NOTHING. If you don't like what they are willing to pay you then find somewhere else to work or open up your own pub.

    Actually if you are doing work for them and helping them to make money then yes, THEY DO owe you a fair wage.


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    #123
    Three Seasons
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Three Seasons


    southsiderosie wrote: »
    Did you not read the multiple responses to you already? The point of the minimum wage is to set a floor given the general economic conditions - hence why it generally varies by country. In an economy where the average hourly wage was $350/hour, maybe a $100/hour minimum wage would make sense. But it doesn't, so I don't understand why you keep belaboring this point: 100/hour is far beyond what you need to survive in the 2013 Irish economy, and the minimum wage exists in order to have a survival-wage in a market economy. Conversations about everyone being 'well off' aren't congruent with having a fundamentally capitalist system.

    You are missing my point. Forget everything before.

    Why not make the minimum wage 100 euro? Forget about the point of the minimum wage. Why not make it 100 euro per hour?


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    #124
    Three Seasons
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Three Seasons


    Herb Powell wrote: »
    Actually if you are doing work for them and helping them to make money then yes, THEY DO owe you a fair wage.


    They owe you nothing when you aren't there employee. They don't owe you employment. They owe you nothing from the beginning before you are employed by them. They make a wage offer and you accept or reject. They owe you nothing.


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    #125
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Three Seasons wrote: »
    Why not make the minimum wage 100 euro? Forget about the point of the minimum wage. Why not make it 100 euro per hour?
    You're being really transparent in your attempt to setup a straw-man here.


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    #126
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    Three Seasons wrote: »
    Why not increase the minimum wage to 100 euro per hour? We'd all be better off then. Can you give sound logical reasoning why we shouldn't increase the minimum wage to 100 euro per hour?
    Three Seasons wrote: »
    But why not make it 100 euro so everyone would be better off?
    Three Seasons wrote: »
    But why not make everyone well off with 100 euro minimum wage?
    Three Seasons wrote: »
    You are missing my point. Forget everything before.

    Why not make the minimum wage 100 euro? Forget about the point of the minimum wage. Why not make it 100 euro per hour?

    You must work in sales in this entry level job you have :pac:

    You never give up


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    #127
    Herb Powell
    Registered Users Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭Herb Powell


    Three Seasons wrote: »
    They owe you nothing when you aren't there employee. They don't owe you employment. They owe you nothing from the beginning before you are employed by them. They make a wage offer and you accept or reject. They owe you nothing.

    That's true of course, but the way you worded it sounded different.


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    #128
    V_Moth
    Registered Users Posts: 1,423 ✭✭✭V_Moth


    Sandwlch wrote: »
    Worked in Ireland too. From contraction in previous years, 0.4% growth last year, 1.3% expected this year, 2% next year.

    Lets hear it for austerity and the clever people who took us that way.

    May 2013 - Figures revised to 0.2%, 0.9% and 1.5%

    September 2013 - Figures revised to -0.1%, 0.5% and 1.2%

    etc.

    This has happened too often in the last few years to believe any figures.


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    #129
    stone_cutter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 12 ✭stone_cutter


    their are things the goverment could do in order to ease the effects of austerity for people , their are still groups out there who opperate in a sheltered sector - closed shop

    GP,s
    dentists
    ESB

    the goverment could deregulate theese sectors and allow competition to dictate price , if the cost of seeing a GP was only 30 , someone on a low wage would find things a lot easier , ditto lower electricity bills


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    #130
    Three Seasons
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Three Seasons


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    You must work in sales in this entry level job you have :pac:

    You never give up

    If having a minimum wage adds wealth then why not increase it and add even more wealth?

    The reality is it reduces the economic pie. The total output in the economy reduces. There are fewer businesses and fewer jobs available. Without a minimum wage there is the opportunity for people to have a job and gain a skillet and experience where otherwise they couldn't have done that.

    I'm just an average person like everyone else trying to get by and pay my bills. I don't wear a crown or carry a septer.


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    #131
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The main thing that "reduces the economic pie" is the relative cost of food & fuel, both of which are largly unavoidable, with the relative value of money continuing to fall, these basics are taking an ever increasing percentage of the average earners income.


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    #132
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    Three Seasons wrote: »
    Without a minimum wage there is the opportunity for people to have a job and gain a skillet and experience where otherwise they couldn't have done that.

    That already exists!

    Called job bridge and you too can stack shelves in Tesco, work the tills in Supervalue or stand behind a hotel bar for 50 euro and your job seekers!

    Yes people get experience of working but you ignored the earlier posters who talked about employers taking the piss. And there are plenty of employers out there who are happy for free labour.
    Cut minimum wage and you'll have kitchen porters offered money that nobody could live on.


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    #133
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    Cut minimum wage and you'll have kitchen porters offered money that nobody could live on.

    Unless we return to the "old days" of service where the employees live on the premesis in an employees flat and get "pocket money".


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    #134
    dark crystal
    Registered Users Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    That already exists!

    Called job bridge and you too can stack shelves in Tesco, work the tills in Supervalue or stand behind a hotel bar for 50 euro and your job seekers!

    Yes people get experience of working but you ignored the earlier posters who talked about employers taking the piss. And there are plenty of employers out there who are happy for free labour.
    Cut minimum wage and you'll have kitchen porters offered money that nobody could live on.

    And end up on social welfare instead because it pays better.


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    #135
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,556 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Things like job bridge are a great idea in theory but will never work in practice.


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    #136
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    So let's be clear: Ireland is doing austerity one way or another because Fianna Failure bankrupted the country and we are in massive debt. We have no choice.

    Yeah they did quite a number on Greece too, not to mention what they are currently doing to Cyprus. Dam you Fianna Fail.


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    #137
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    mango salsa wrote: »
    Right ok. Says it all really.
    Not really. Presumably, by the same logic, you can't comment on consultants' salaries unless you earn over 150k? :rolleyes:


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    #138
    dark crystal
    Registered Users Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    Not really. Presumably, by the same logic, you can't comment on consultants' salaries unless you earn over 150k? :rolleyes:

    Consultants won't be left languishing under the poverty line if they take a pay cut, though.

    Somebody proposing a cut to the poorest in society probably wouldn't have the same opinion if they were living on the poverty line themselves. It's easy to hypothesise when it doesn't affect you negatively in any way.


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    #139
    Three Seasons
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Three Seasons


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    That already exists!

    Called job bridge and you too can stack shelves in Tesco, work the tills in Supervalue or stand behind a hotel bar for 50 euro and your job seekers!

    Yes people get experience of working but you ignored the earlier posters who talked about employers taking the piss. And there are plenty of employers out there who are happy for free labour.
    Cut minimum wage and you'll have kitchen porters offered money that nobody could live on.

    Then don't agree to their contract and move on.


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    #140
    stmol32
    Registered Users Posts: 718 ✭✭✭stmol32


    When are Irish people finally going to realise we brought this on ourselves and the only way to get back to normal is if we start going to mass again.


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    #141
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    dark crystal wrote: »
    I don't know - does it?

    Do you believe abolishing the minimum wage would incentivise people into working instead of claiming social welfare?
    Yes, if you tackle the ridiculous situation where it pays more to be on the dole than to work.
    dark crystal wrote: »
    Do you think hitting the lowest earners in society would drive down the cost of rent, electricity, home heating oil, gas, petrol, childcare and house prices for everyone else?
    Yes, it would.


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    #142
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yeah they did quite a number on Greece too, not to mention what they are currently doing to Cyprus. Dam you Fianna Fail.
    So basically what you are saying is that it's not possible for corrupt incompetent politicians to be in charge in more than one country? :confused:

    Wow, who knew. :rolleyes:


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    #143
    dark crystal
    Registered Users Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    Anynama141 wrote: »

    Yes, it would.

    Can you give me a few examples of countries where this happened please?

    Specifically countries who had a minimum wage, abolished it and that in effect brought down the price of home heating oil, gas, electricity, rent, petrol and childcare.

    Thanks.


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    #144
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    dark crystal wrote: »
    Consultants won't be left languishing under the poverty line if they take a pay cut, though.
    So what? The principle is that if you don't live on an income, you can't comment on it. Full stop.

    Stupid principle, isn't it?


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    #145
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    dark crystal wrote: »
    Can you give me a few examples of countries where this happened please?

    Specifically countries who had a minimum wage, abolished it and that in effect brought down the price of home heating oil, gas, electricity, rent, petrol and childcare.

    Thanks.
    You think that cutting the cost of inputs will not bring down the cost of services? Perhaps you can explain the logic of this before demanding examples from other people?


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    #146
    dark crystal
    Registered Users Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    You think that cutting the cost of inputs will not bring down the cost of services? Perhaps you can explain the logic of this before demanding examples from other people?

    Sorry, you asserted that cutting the minimum wage would bring down costs of all the things I mentioned. I was asking for examples because I am not aware of anywhere in the world where this has happened.

    The idea that cutting the wages of the poorest working members of society will suddenly bring down the cost of basic living expenses for everyone else doesn't ring true with me at all, therefore I'm asking for examples of where it has happened. You asserted it would and so the onus is on you to provide proof of such a claim.


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    #147
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    dark crystal wrote: »
    Sorry, you asserted that cutting the minimum wage would bring down costs of all the things I mentioned. I was asking for examples because I am not aware of anywhere in the world where this has happened.

    The idea that cutting the wages of the poorest working members of society will suddenly bring down the cost of basic living expenses for everyone else doesn't ring true with me at all, therefore I'm asking for examples of where it has happened. You asserted it would and so the onus is on you to provide proof of such a claim.
    I am asserting a basic rule of economics. Have a look at a marginal cost curve and a supply curve under imperfect competition.

    You are making an extraordinary claim that will require you to overturn much of basic economic theory - I suppose it's a waste of time to expect you to do so.


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    #148
    Hootanany
    Registered Users Posts: 5,477 ✭✭✭Hootanany


    Benchmarking works both ways it's South from now on,Deep South.


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    #149
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    When you're on minimum wage and buying a 3 euro sandwich from Spar is something you need to think about and paying 10 euro for a carvary pub lunch is a once a month treat then you don't worry over economic theory.

    You slog on and do the best you can.

    Very easy to talk about cutting minimum wage when you're in a decent graduate level job and you've no worries about being undercut and replaced.
    Marginal cost curve? Will that pay the bills for a worker who mops the hotel ballroom at 2am and is sweating buckets?

    Some posters here live in a textbook


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    #150
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    I am asserting a basic rule of economics. Have a look at a marginal cost curve and a supply curve under imperfect competition.

    You are making an extraordinary claim that will require you to overturn much of basic economic theory - I suppose it's a waste of time to expect you to do so.
    You reply to a request for real world examples, with dubious neoclassical theory; provide some examples, as it is well known that business typically sets costs unrelated to the marginal cost rate:
    https://unlearningeconomics.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/debunking-economics-part-iii-uninformed-and-inexperienced-armchair-theorisers/

    Economics as taught today (typically neoclassical economics), is almost entirely unchanged since the economic crisis, despite totally failing to spot something as simple as private debt vs GDP, as a massive red flashing warning sign, that a crisis was coming; most economics taught in college (with some notable exceptions from non-neoclassicals), that is based on neoclassical economics, is junk.


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    #151
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    When you're on minimum wage and buying a 3 euro sandwich from Spar is something you need to think about and paying 10 euro for a carvary pub lunch is a once a month treat then you don't worry over economic theory.

    You slog on and do the best you can.

    Very easy to talk about cutting minimum wage when you're in a decent graduate level job and you've no worries about being undercut and replaced.
    Marginal cost curve? Will that pay the bills for a worker who mops the hotel ballroom at 2am and is sweating buckets?

    Some posters here live in a textbook
    That's just a rubbish answer. Not knowing the law of gravity doesn't mean you won't fall if you walk off a cliff. It's either right or wrong.

    You are falling into the classic logical fallacy of the appeal to consequences.
    Appeal to consequences, also known as argumentum ad consequentiam (Latin for "argument to the consequences"), is an argument that concludes a hypothesis (typically a belief) to be either true or false based on whether the premise leads to desirable or undesirable consequences. This is based on an appeal to emotion and is a type of informal fallacy, since the desirability of a consequence does not make it true. Moreover, in categorizing consequences as either desirable or undesirable, such arguments inherently contain subjective points of view.
    Of course, in this case it's even worse as as it's not even agreed whether it would be good or bad for the low paid/unemployed if the minimum wage is scrapped.


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