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Austerity isn't really working is it?

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    #62
    Three Seasons
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Three Seasons


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    I agree with this theoretically and ideologically however Irish businesses have a history of pocketing everything and not passing savings on to the customer. Prices were rounded up when the € came in. Job-bridge appears to be little more than a free labour source. Retailers routinely use VAT increases to sneak in their own price hikes.
    €8.65 per hour full time is what per week? €350? Hardly extravagant.


    Well if companies want to make more profits they'll lower prices.


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    #63
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Three Seasons wrote: »
    I don't have to live on minimum wage.

    Right ok. Says it all really.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #64
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    Three Seasons wrote: »
    I don't have to live on minimum wage.

    Easy to talk about abolishing it so

    Economic theories are not going to help the kitchen porter pay their bills when they are asked to work for less


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    #65
    The Dagda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭The Dagda


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    Not necessarily the case, so it's a bit harsh to be claiming that the poster is "completely wrong". The majority of buying and selling on bond markets is of second-hand bonds. Hence private investors selling bonds to other private investors at some point past the issuance date.



    You obviously have little comprehension of economics if you believe this to be the case.

    Firstly I was speaking in relation to Ireland's activity in the bond market.

    Secondly ask yourself where inflation comes from? Why does the current economic system require the value of money to be always increasing?

    If you believe that the current system is sound then I'm afraid it's you that lacks comprehension...


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    #66
    Three Seasons
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Three Seasons


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    Easy to talk about abolishing it so

    Economic theories are not going to help the kitchen porter pay their bills when they are asked to work for less

    Yes they will actually, goods and services prices will fall and more business will start up and more jobs become available. No minimum wage benefits the poorer people in society.


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    #67
    Sandwlch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Sandwlch


    southsiderosie wrote: »
    But they don't live in countries where a liter of petrol costs twice that amount, or where people pay 200 quid/week in rent.

    Cost of petrol is irrelevant when you cant afford a car. You dont need 200 a week for rent when you live in a one room timber hut.
    southsiderosie wrote: »
    You can't compare a country like, say, Bangladesh to Ireland.
    Why not ? Are they not people too ?


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    #68
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    Charlie McCreevy cut the VAT rate and then put it back up in the next budget as consumers saw no difference, it was being pocketed by the businesses.

    Rounding up prices when the euro was introduced has already been mentioned

    Edit and there was a thread in wedding forum about posters having to insist on their VAT reduction
    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/hotels-must-pass-on-vat-reductions-to-consumers-warns-ihf-26745641.html

    You have a lot of faith that prices will fall, I don't see it


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    #69
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,852 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    When did this austerity start? And how will we know when it is over?


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    #70
    Sandwlch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Sandwlch


    Augmerson wrote: »
    I just think, from having listened to a few conversations with acquaintances or friends of friends and having read through a few Irish internet forums and beyond

    Isnt that the flaw though ? The above, or the vaste majority of people in general have no understanding of the issues involved and so can make no judgement on whether 'austerity is working' or not. Leave it to the people who know best to make their best (which may be right or wrong, but still the best shot at it) effort at improving our situation.


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    #71
    Forest Demon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Forest Demon


    The real problem in Ireland is not Austerity. Its the lack of fairness for working family's and the waste of taxes gathered. We see evidence of this every day in the high salary's and cost of the senior public servants, consultants, RTE presenters, Union representatives, politicians, pensions, bankers, dentists, insurance, energy costs, solicitors and every other service that anyone might want to avail of. Why is everything always more expensive in Ireland? Its incompetence and waste. Its all passed down the line and onto the consumer.

    We elect new politicians but the incompetent institutions and vested interests remain. As a matter of fact they are increasing, taking NAMA as an example.

    The real scandal is the continued austerity while the waste continues. If the waste was properly tackled then we would not need austerity.


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    #72
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The Dagda wrote: »

    Secondly ask yourself where inflation comes from? Why does the current economic system require the value of money to be always increasing?

    Actually, inflation devalues the currency as you need more of it to buy the same stuff!

    Inflation is the way the financial world robs savers without them knowing about it and is why the central banks (except the Germans) are so desperate to increase inflation again.
    Inflation is needed to allow the loans to be repaid without draining the system of money.


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    #73
    Suryavarman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭Suryavarman


    The Dagda wrote: »
    Why are you bringing 1920-22 into the discussion? Everyone was talking about the great depression...?

    Forgive me if i don't take your word for what someone living in America during that time would say in answer to your imaginary questions!

    A simple look at the figures from this time, which show the huge growth the US economy experienced, and how much unemployment was reduced by, will contradict your assertions...

    I agree that reduced spending caused the great depression but it most certainly was not further reduction of spending, which you're suggesting above, that caused it to end. That makes no sense.

    You are bringing 1920-1922 into the discussion by saying that the Great Depression was caused by a fall in spending. The last fall in spending prior to the Great Depression was that time period. So either that caused the Great Depression or a fall in spending didn't cause it. Incidentally, that time period is one of the great examples of austerity working. After entering into a depression where GDP contracted more in one year than in any single year during the Great Depression, the US federal Government slashed spending and taxes. The economy then recovered almost immediately.

    Lower unemployment figures are not an indication of a healthy economy. Especially in this scenario. To use your logic, if we wanted to get Ireland's economy back on track we would only have to enslave all the unemployed, for that is exactly what happened during WWII in America.

    Using wartime GDP figures to measure an economy is very problematic. Wartime price controls were causing large shortages of goods and also masking the true level of inflation. This means that real GDP will be overstated as it won't account for inflation properly. The basic GDP figure doesn't show what the GDP is made up of. Closer examination of the GDP during WWII reveals a reduction in the amount of consumer goods available for people to buy during WWII i.e. worse standards of living.

    Reducing spending to end the depression makes plenty of sense. With the government borrowing less money there is more money available to invest in the private sector. This allows companies to hire people and produce goods that people want.


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    #74
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Augmerson wrote: »
    If we could inject billions into our financial institutions, why can't we do the same for the economy with jobs programs or public works?

    Because no college friends, golfing buddies or political sponsors of the politicians would directly benefit from such a move, unlike saving failed banks along with their executives and their bonuses...


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    #75
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    true wrote: »
    +1. Our public servants, politicians, social welfare recipients and pensioners are still paid far too much. Double in Navan compared to Newry. Its not them that are suffering from real austerity.

    Many people say that they can buy their groceries for half the price in Newry too.
    Like with like please.


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    #76
    G Power
    Closed Accounts Posts: 559 ✭✭✭G Power


    Augmerson wrote: »
    Is there some kind of belief going about these days that the imposed austerity we are experiencing in Ireland and across Europe is not only required but also good for us?

    I just think, from having listened to a few conversations with acquaintances or friends of friends and having read through a few Irish internet forums and beyond, that some people (at home at least) think higher taxes and more budget cuts are the only way to go.

    I can see some kind of rational in the idea. Government expenditure is higher than Government income. Something has to change. What I don't agree with, is how this is approached. We are in are sixth year of austerity and recession. There is still serious unemployment and emigration. I don't believe austerity is working, in fact I feel it's just prolonging the recession. It's keeping us back.

    I don't have any foolproof response to what should be done to tackle our current situation, other than say we should have done exactly what Iceland has done (but the chance to do that has passed) but cutting more and more money out of the economy like we are now doesn't work. If we could inject billions into our financial institutions, why can't we do the same for the economy with jobs programs or public works? I just think this is all madness, and I am sick of some people, political institutions and elements of the media promoting the idea that this is all getting us somewhere.

    Perfectly willing to listen to the other side of the fence about this.

    Also, in before anybody calls me crusty, hippy or lefty for feeling this way.

    if you bury your head deep enough in the sand it's ok, it works for the majority


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    #77
    Augmerson
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,162 ✭✭✭Augmerson


    southsiderosie wrote: »
    I don't think you can compare Ireland to the US - or Iceland for that matter - the primary reason being that Ireland doesn't control its own currency. So the government can't print more money to fund stimulus packages.

    That said, aversion to inflation is more of an issue in Europe (due to the German experience in the inter-war period) than in the United States, where the Fed has always been more mindful of employment levels than inflation (due to the experience of the Depression).

    With that in mind, I think every country's response to economic crisis is going to be shaped by its own history. In Ireland, emigration has always been the safety valve. But that valve is partially clogged because many of the potential labor emigrants are migrant workers in the now-defunct construction industry who make more on the dole in Ireland than they would in their home countries. And Ireland can't devalue its way out of the crisis. So it is stuck with a 'sticky' unemployed workforce and no control over monetary (and increasingly, fiscal) policy - not a nice place to be.

    Interesting post, thanks, bit of an eye opener. As have all of the posts been so far in this thread. Makes for some startling reading tbh.


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    #78
    St.Spodo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭St.Spodo


    Austerity is working very well. It's succeeding in its attempt to transfer money from the ordinary many to the wealthy few. The fact that it is working is exactly why it shouldn't be accepted.


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    #79
    Three Seasons
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Three Seasons


    St.Spodo wrote: »
    Austerity is working very well. It's succeeding in its attempt to transfer money from the ordinary many to the wealthy few. The fact that it is working is exactly why it shouldn't be accepted.

    Who are the wealthy few who are receiving are increased taxes?


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    #80
    dark crystal
    Registered Users Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    Three Seasons wrote: »
    I don't have to live on minimum wage.

    I thought as much.

    I generally find people who suggest abolishing the minimum wage are not the people who have to exist on it.


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    #81
    monkeysnapper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,576 ✭✭✭monkeysnapper


    Augmerson wrote: »
    Interesting post, thanks, bit of an eye opener. As have all of the posts been so far in this thread. Makes for some startling reading tbh.

    After hours can be full of stupid unhelpful comments alright but I don't understand completly . I'm one of thoughs people that just pay up what they ask for. I,ve always got paid low wages so make ends meet and keep things tight.

    I've found this thread very helpfull . Thanks


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    #82
    Suryavarman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭Suryavarman


    dark crystal wrote: »
    I thought as much.

    I generally find people who suggest abolishing the minimum wage are not the people who have to exist on it.

    What difference does it make? Does a person's income level change the laws of economics?


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    #83
    Three Seasons
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Three Seasons


    dark crystal wrote: »
    I thought as much.

    I generally find people who suggest abolishing the minimum wage are not the people who have to exist on it.

    If I were on minimum wage my beliefs would remain the same. It's better for society not to have a minimum wage. It's a handicap on our economy, standards of living fall with a minimum wage.


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    #84
    dark crystal
    Registered Users Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    Suryavarman wrote: »
    What difference does it make? Does a person's income level change the laws of economics?

    I don't know - does it?

    Do you believe abolishing the minimum wage would incentivise people into working instead of claiming social welfare?

    Do you think hitting the lowest earners in society would drive down the cost of rent, electricity, home heating oil, gas, petrol, childcare and house prices for everyone else?


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    #85
    Three Seasons
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Three Seasons


    dark crystal wrote: »
    I don't know - does it?

    Do you believe abolishing the minimum wage would incentivise people into working instead of claiming social welfare?

    Do you think hitting the lowest earners in society would drive down the cost of rent, electricity, home heating oil, gas, petrol, childcare and house prices for everyone else?

    Some costs would decrease as the cost of labour falls in some areas.

    The quality of the goods and services we would get per euro would increase.


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    #86
    Suryavarman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭Suryavarman


    dark crystal wrote: »
    I don't know - does it?

    Do you believe abolishing the minimum wage would incentivise people into working instead of claiming social welfare?

    Do you think hitting the lowest earners in society would drive down the cost of rent, electricity, home heating oil, gas, petrol, childcare and house prices for everyone else?

    Obviously it doesn't change the laws of economics. The laws of economics are just like the laws of physics. They apply to everyone and everything.

    Abolishing the minimum wage will result in a greater number of jobs available, benefiting the worst off in society. Those currently unable to find work because their productivity doesn't justify €8.65 per hour will find it easier to get a job.


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    #87
    dsmythy
    Registered Users Posts: 10,513 ✭✭✭✭dsmythy


    Worked in Latvia. Back to growth already.


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    #88
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    bluewolf wrote: »
    What austerity

    Glad you've had no austerity. Are you suggesting that there has been none for the rest of us?


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    #89
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    Three Seasons wrote: »
    Employers will raise wages if no one is willing to fill the roles.

    Removing the minimum wage makes it easier to start businesses and create more jobs, it also allows goods and services to be priced more cheaply.

    I'd suggest you try and live on minimum wage in this country with the extremely high cost of living this country enjoys. Besides if you had a relatively high social welfare how will that help matters? The cost of living needs to be reduced substantially before talking about abolishing minimum wages.


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    #90
    Three Seasons
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Three Seasons


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    I'd suggest you try and live on minimum wage in this country with the extremely high cost of living this country enjoys. Besides if you had a relatively high social welfare how will that help matters? The cost of living needs to be reduced substantially before talking about abolishing minimum wages.

    The cost of living will come down following the abolition of the minimum wage. People will be better off, especially the poorer people in society.


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    #91
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    The handicap for our country has been repeatably bad governance and the belief in big government for a country of our size.
    Three Seasons wrote: »
    If I were on minimum wage my beliefs would remain the same. It's better for society not to have a minimum wage. It's a handicap on our economy, standards of living fall with a minimum wage.


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