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Time to vote FF

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    #122
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    SamHall wrote: »
    Ditto the FG party and labour and their numerous u-turns.

    Property tax, child support, bankers and bondholders, say whatever it takes to get into power, completely change their morals once in.
    Sorry, but I think you are wrong here. What did it say in FG's manifesto about property tax and childrens' allowance? As to the bondholder stuff, that was Labour IIRC. There's a quote from Varadkar that is routinely taken out of context, that's about all you can say about FG.
    SamHall wrote: »
    FFhaven't fooled me either however. They'redas bad as each other tbh. Each and every one.
    Nonsense. Fianna Failure flew us into the mountainside. FG and Labour are trying to build a plane out of the wreckage. Whose task is harder?


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    #123
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    Sorry, but I think you are wrong here. What did it say in FG's manifesto about property tax

    That it was unfair and they opposed it :confused:
    Anynama141 wrote: »
    and childrens' allowance? As to the bondholder stuff, that was Labour IIRC. There's a quote from Varadkar that is routinely taken out of context, that's about all you can say about FG.

    Yes I know it was labour referenced the childcare, hence why I mentioned them.

    A lot of what leo says 'gets taken out of context' tbh.
    “Fine Gael in Government abolished the Residential Property Tax and is not in favour of re-introducing it. A property tax would further depress the housing market and would plunge Ireland even deeper into recession.


    “Brian Cowen should immediately rule out the introduction of a property tax and to make it clear to the country that he is dissociating himself from the NESC on this matter.”

    Hard to take somebody 'out of context' from their own website tbh.


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    Nonsense. Fianna Failure flew us into the mountainside. FG and Labour are trying to build a plane out of the wreckage. Whose task is harder?

    Are you forgetting that FG continuously whined at FG for not spending enough during the Celtic tiger?

    By that logic, we'd be in deeper trouble if the then coalition had of listened to end and co.

    Like I say. All as bad as each other.


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    #124
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    SamHall wrote: »
    That it was unfair and they opposed it :confused:
    I just checked the manifesto, and it looks like you are right. They basically say that Labour want a property tax but they don't. Of course, we don't have an FG government, we have a FG/Labour government. And personally I think we should have a property tax and FG were talking sh!te in their manifesto.
    SamHall wrote: »
    A lot of what leo says 'gets taken out of context' tbh.
    He seems to be one of a very, very few politicians that actually say what they think. I guess you could argue that makes him a poor politician.
    SamHall wrote: »
    Are you forgetting that FG continuously whined at FG for not spending enough during the Celtic tiger?
    I am - I'm not sure that it happened. They surely whined that they were not spending enough, or wisely enough, in certain areas. But they were not the ones at the wheel.
    SamHall wrote: »
    Like I say. All as bad as each other.
    I find it very hard to condemn SF, FG, and LAB for how FFailure and the Greens governed the country. The Irish public showed repeatedly that they wanted populist policies and pro-cyclical spending. They forced the opposition into populist positions to compete with Fianna Failure - whether they would have behaved as idiotically in government as Fianna Failure did...I doubt it very much. And I speak about all of the parties who were not in government.


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    #125
    BuilderPlumber
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    What has this country ruined is civil war politics. FF v FG with Labour on the fence deciding which side to join. The aim of the game is to get one over on the other side.

    FF, FG and Labour all have good and poor performers. James Reilly stands out as very much the latter but he is not better or worse than Mary Harney. Governments are too controlled by lobby groups and the like as well. Too many politicians are seriously out of touch with the people and do not see the consequences of their actions. They think in terms of statistics and not the human cost.

    Now, FF and FG are basically the very same. What we really need is to get rid of all the fat cats out of every party and start with intelligent, cooperative politicians who can work as a team instead of scoring cheap points. To me, Reilly, Ruairi Quinn, Brendan Howlin and one or two more are particularly poor in their roles. Enda Kenny can be weak. The FF government also saw poor leadership and poor performers like Dermot Ahern (arrogance personified!!), Harney, Bertie Ahern and others. Micheal Martin? The jury is out. He performed well in the 1990s and seemed to be Bertie's defender and little else as the years went on.....

    I think the day that FF and FG can work side by side for the people and not playing political football is the day when Ireland will do better.


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    #126
    OCorcrainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭OCorcrainn


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    It's a depressed dump nonetheless. Lovely place for a holiday

    Ireland and the US can be considered 'depressed dumps'.


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    #127
    OCorcrainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭OCorcrainn


    BuilderPlumber wrote: »
    I think the day that FF and FG can work side by side for the people and not playing political football is the day when Ireland will do better.

    Yeah brilliant logic there, Fianna Fáil have done irreversible damage thanks to their corruption and greed on their own along with Fine Gael. Fine Gael are the same as we see now, so look at the damage that they have done on their own. Now you are suggesting two of the worst parties in the state be in government together!?


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    #128
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    OCorcrainn wrote: »
    Ireland and the US can be considered 'depressed dumps'.
    I take it you've never been to the USA or Cuba, or did so wearing blinkers. Comparing 'austerity' Ireland, where the restaurants are booked out every night, with subsistence-living Cuba - absurd.


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    #129
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    OCorcrainn wrote: »
    Yeah brilliant logic there, Fianna Fáil have done irreversible damage thanks to their corruption and greed on their own along with Fine Gael. Fine Gael are the same as we see now, so look at the damage that they have done on their own. Now you are suggesting two of the worst parties in the state be in government together!?
    The 'damage' that FG are doing is because we are running a €10 billion per annum public spending deficit. When will people get this through their heads??

    I presume you have a magical money tree that they can avail of?


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    #130
    OCorcrainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭OCorcrainn


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    The 'damage' that FG are doing is because we are running a €10 billion per annum public spending deficit. When will people get this through their heads??

    I presume you have a magical money tree that they can avail of?

    Yup sure yet they continue to target the vulnerable for savings instead of the upper tier on society.


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    #131
    StudentDad
    Registered Users Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    There are times when I think we have drifted back into the 19th century, especially when child benefit, social welfare and access to education etc is being discussed in the media.

    I'm waiting for the phrase 'deserving poor' to be trotted out.

    SD


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    #132
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    OCorcrainn wrote: »
    Yup sure yet they continue to target the vulnerable for savings instead of the upper tier on society.
    Jesus H Christ - 'target the vulnerable' - the usual clichés of the left. Taxes have risen for everyone, the bottom 40% of so of taxpayers pay NOTHING in net taxes, we have the second most progressive tax system IN THE WORLD, and the left are still determined to tax the remaining capital out of the country, taking another few hundred thousand jobs with it.

    We're dealing with the real world here, not some Marxist world that should be.


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    #133
    BuilderPlumber
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    OCorcrainn wrote: »
    Yeah brilliant logic there, Fianna Fáil have done irreversible damage thanks to their corruption and greed on their own along with Fine Gael. Fine Gael are the same as we see now, so look at the damage that they have done on their own. Now you are suggesting two of the worst parties in the state be in government together!?

    No I am not. FF & FG need ideally to be out of office for a long time and to rebuild. That said and done, who else is there in this country to fill the void? Radical fanatics linked to the IRA (when we saw these types get into power, they ruin their countries completely: just look at Nazi Germany, modern Iran or most of Africa) or Labour (who are not any different to FG & FF). FF & FG as a coalition would also be as dangerous to Irish democracy as a takeover by hardline members of Jinto Fane.

    What I AM saying is that whichever shower is in government and comes up with the RARE good idea should not be knocked by the other side just because the idea came from them.

    Ideally, Ireland needs a new, moderate, non-corrupt, idealistic party that will distribute wealth, jobs and entrepeneurship to the people and not vested groups. Even now, Fianna Fail are the door you go through for many sectors especially in the local, VEC, country music and hotels sectors (admittedly not as much as before but they are going to increase their grip inthe local elections again). This is wrong.


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    #134
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,204 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    OCorcrainn wrote: »
    Yup sure yet they continue to target the vulnerable for savings instead of the upper tier on society.

    In fairnesss this is exacyl what most democracies do. FF certainly didn't have any problems trying to keep the rich happy and content when Cowen was in charge.

    It's a bt weird, looking at this from a distance. FG are pretty much putting in the same measures FF wee considering and FF and not portraying them as ogres.
    Anynama141 wrote: »
    Jesus H Christ - 'target the vulnerable' - the usual clichés of the left. Taxes have risen for everyone, the bottom 40% of so of taxpayers pay NOTHING in net taxes, we have the second most progressive tax system IN THE WORLD, and the left are still determined to tax the remaining capital out of the country, taking another few hundred thousand jobs with it.

    I think Google (as in the corporation) would disagree with you there. Well, they wouldn;t but the tax returns wouldn't.

    If the role of a government is not to protect the vulnerable, that what is it?

    In addition to capitalism, I;m guessing you don;t know much about the liberal aspect of ecomony, just this rather knee-jerk "left is bad" mentality?
    We're dealing with the real world here, not some Marxist world that should be.

    You do realise no one's actually put forward that idea? But hey - if it sounds good, throw it out there.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #135
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    I think Google (as in the corporation) would disagree with you there. Well, they wouldn;t but the tax returns wouldn't.
    So we should jack up the tax Google and every other company, even though the only reason they have a couple of thousand well-paid employees here is due to our low corporate tax rate?
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    If the role of a government is not to protect the vulnerable, that what is it?
    You do know that there are welfare benefits, free healthcare, free education, free housing etc. etc. available here?

    I'm guessing you never heard of the welfare state. And I'm guessing you don't know what 40% is.
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    In addition to capitalism, I;m guessing you don;t know much about the liberal aspect of ecomony, just this rather knee-jerk "left is bad" mentality?
    I study and teach this stuff for a living. The left is fine, in small doses. Same as the right.
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    You do realise no one's actually put forward that idea? But hey - if it sounds good, throw it out there.
    What were you just saying about increasing taxes on Google? :confused:


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    #136
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,204 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    So we should jack up the tax Google and every other company, even though the only reason they have a couple of thousand well-paid employees here is due to our low corporate tax rate?

    You do know that there are welfare benefits, free healthcare, free education, free housing etc. etc. available here?

    I'm guessing you never heard of the welfare state. And I'm guessing you don't know what 40% is.

    I study and teach this stuff for a living. The left is fine, in small doses. Same as the right.

    What were you just saying about increasing taxes on Google? :confused:

    1 - Wasn't my point weith Google: you seeme to think the rich were paying enough tax already (I may have understood, apologies if I did).

    2 - "A welfare state" to me is a phrase used to describe a state that makes it too easy to claim welfare. You need to clarfiy if this is not what you mean. It's a bit irrelevant because "welfare" doesn't necesarily equate with "protection". It should and it can, but welfare levels can be too little, too hard to attain or even too easy to attain. But if we're going down that route, again, you need to clarify what you mean by welfare, what your thoughts on it are, and welafare state.

    3 - If you teach this stuff and see the valid points of the left, why did you use the phrase "the usual cliches of the left"? What left wing tax policies (that have been put forward - not just in theory) are you referring to?

    4 - I didn't say anything about taxation on Google, I used them as an example to debate your point above, which, as I said, I may have misinterpreted. But again, if I have, what Marxist policies are you referring to that have been put forward?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #137
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    1 - Wasn't my point weith Google: you seeme to think the rich were paying enough tax already (I may have understood, apologies if I did).
    Do you have a proposal whereby we can increase taxes on companies without costing jobs?
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    2 - "A welfare state" to me is a phrase used to describe a state that makes it too easy to claim welfare. You need to clarfiy if this is not what you mean. It's a bit irrelevant because "welfare" doesn't necesarily equate with "protection". It should and it can, but welfare levels can be too little, too hard to attain or even too easy to attain. But if we're going down that route, again, you need to clarify what you mean by welfare, what your thoughts on it are, and welafare state.
    My thoughts are: we have a welfare state. We protect the vulnerable, and we protect plenty of other people too.
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    3 - If you teach this stuff and see the valid points of the left, why did you use the phrase "the usual cliches of the left"? What left wing tax policies (that have been put forward - not just in theory) are you referring to?
    'Tax the rich' - the ultimate easy answer for all our problems from the left. If you tax the rich much more, you'd better put a pretty high tax on leaving the country, because that's the last you'll see of them.
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    4 - I didn't say anything about taxation on Google, I used them as an example to debate your point above, which, as I said, I may have misinterpreted. But again, if I have, what Marxist policies are you referring to that have been put forward?
    Put forward by you, or by the usual Marxist sources?


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    #138
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,204 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    Do you have a proposal whereby we can increase taxes on companies without costing jobs?

    My thoughts are: we have a welfare state. We protect the vulnerable, and we protect plenty of other people too.

    'Tax the rich' - the ultimate easy answer for all our problems from the left. If you tax the rich much more, you'd better put a pretty high tax on leaving the country, because that's the last you'll see of them.

    Put forward by you, or by the usual Marxist sources?

    Don't believe I've ever said taxing the rich was the way forward....? I don't beleive I ever said taxation was the way forward? I merely disagreed with you when you said "taxes have risen for everyone". Not for corporations, they haven't. Whether they should or shouldn't is somethign I never commented on - again, you need to stop asking me questions that are simply not relevant to the posts I'm making.

    And again, how can you teach this stuff when you have such a bias against the left? Not just an idea from the left - but your language targets anything left! Is everything left of centre communist/Marxist to you?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #139
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Don't believe I've ever said taxing the rich was the way forward....? I don't beleive I ever said taxation was the way forward? I merely disagreed with you when you said "taxes have risen for everyone". Not for corporations, they haven't. Whether they should or shouldn't is somethign I never commented on - again, you need to stop asking me questions that are simply not relevant to the posts I'm making.
    Well it seems that you view corporations as people, whereas I do not. They are, however, owned by people. Who pay taxes on dividend income.
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    And again, how can you teach this stuff when you have such a bias against the left? Not just an idea from the left - but your language targets anything left! Is everything left of centre communist/Marxist to you?
    Ok, if you want to argue with a straw man, I'll let you at it.


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    #140
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,204 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    Well it seems that you view corporations as people, whereas I do not. They are, however, owned by people. Who pay taxes on dividend income.

    Ok, if you want to argue with a straw man, I'll let you at it.

    As I said, ages ago I may have misread your point. And if you're playing to straw-man card to back out of an argument with some sort of pride, so be it. Doens't usually work, though.

    You've attacked the entire left wing - not juts policies, the whole wing. I have every right to ask you what proposed policies you are referring to.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #141
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    As I said, ages ago I may have misread your point. And if you're playing to straw-man card to back out of an argument with some sort of pride, so be it. Doens't usually work, though.
    And if you want to construct a straw man to argue with because it gives you a more realistic chance of looking like you've scored some internet points, so be it. People usually notice it though.


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    #142
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,204 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    And if you want to construct a straw man to argue with because it gives you a more realistic chance of looking like you've scored some internet points, so be it. People usually notice it though.
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    As I said, ages ago I may have misread your point. And if you're playing to straw-man card to back out of an argument with some sort of pride, so be it. Doens't usually work, though.

    You've attacked the entire left wing - not juts policies, the whole wing. I have every right to ask you what proposed policies you are referring to.

    ...I would however be wasting my time, it seems. We're done here. PM me if you change your mind.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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