Bioshock Infinite - 'The Ending' Discussion Thread (Spoilers Spoilers Spoilers!)

BlitzKrieg

tok9 wrote: »

I just finished it there and loved it unsurprisingly but I do have a question in terms of the timeline of the game.

At what stage does DeWitt get baptised?


I'm assuming the loop is - he fights in these wars, give up Anna (this could be the other way around), get's baptised and becomes Comstock, goes onto Columbia and from a tear takes Anna.

Sound about right or am I way off?

he's baptised before he gives birth to Anna

It goes like this I believe:

Battle of Wounded knee

Baptism

Booker works as a pinkerton

Anna is born

Columbia is created

Comstock takes Anna


EDIT

ok quick check of some dates

wounded knee was in 1890

Pinkertons were most active in anti strike roles 1891-1892 (the homestead strike of 1892 sticks out on wikipedia as a big one in new york/chicago were booker was based)

according to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TYly9Z3aRo Columbia was launched in 1893

if we assume elizabeth is *around* 18 then she was possibly born 1894

So the baptism must be between 1890-1893 and seeing as comstock makes no reference to a pinkerton role (but overplays his wounded knee role) then the baptism must have been in 1891.

tok9

Also, in the post credits, does it seem to anyone else that DeWitt knows what happened?

Just his voice and what he says, I get the feeling he remembers or something.

ShadowHearth

Well. Since I finished it I want to get back to it again... Want to to see the whole picture from this perspective. Plus I redownload end bioshock 1 and will start on it today!

By the way, the whole gun stash and jumping through universes did not made much sence. Did that not ****ed up? As Booker was not even in his own universe. Twice!

Somnus

The bit that get's me, and I did miss a few voxaphones so I might just have missed it, is how did Comstock learn about Anna in the first place?

I know that in one of the Lutece logs she says he's sterile as a result of using their machines. I assume he learned about the alternate worlds from Lutece and that's how he discovered the version of Booker that had Anna?

Antar Bolaeisk

Dr.Poca wrote: »

The bit that get's me, and I did miss a few voxaphones so I might just have missed it, is how did Comstock learn about Anna in the first place?

I know that in one of the Lutece logs she says he's sterile as a result of using their machines. I assume he learned about the alternate worlds from Lutece and that's how he discovered the version of Booker that had Anna?

I guess he wouldn't have to, once he knew about the ability to traverse dimensions it was reasonable to assume a dimension where he wasn't sterile and had a child. The only problem might have been finding it. Although, that might not have been difficult either as the baptism was the branching point so if you assume a 50/50 chance of him rejecting the baptism then there's an equal number of Comstock/Booker realities.

Somnus

Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »

I guess he wouldn't have to, once he knew about the ability to traverse dimensions it was reasonable to assume a dimension where he wasn't sterile and had a child. The only problem might have been finding it. Although, that might not have been difficult either as the baptism was the branching point so if you assume a 50/50 chance of him rejecting the baptism then there's an equal number of Comstock/Booker realities.

I htink once he knew about it he would be able to find him with time, I meant more how did he discover the alternate realities in the first place. I assume it was through the Lutece's work

Antar Bolaeisk

Dr.Poca wrote: »

I htink once he knew about it he would be able to find him with time, I meant more how did he discover the alternate realities in the first place. I assume it was through the Lutece's work

I presume so also. Weren't the tears a result of whatever was done to float the city? Once Rosalind investigated them, found out what they actually were and began talking to her male counterpart Comstock possibly barged in with his great idea.

Azza

Enjoyed the game overall.

I liked that they really tried with the ending. So much more effort went into this then most other games ending. No color coded button pressing here.

As for the ending itself, I'm sure there is going be a few plot holes if you look into it much. I had a little look over on the Bioshock wiki to help me grasp some of the endings finer points, and some of the questions I had where explained by audio recordings I missed, such as Comstocks age and sterility.

I don't really feel the need to dig too much deeper, probably only ruin it on myself.

ShadowHearth

Azza wrote: »

Enjoyed the game overall.

I liked that they really tried with the ending. So much more effort went into this then most other games ending. No color coded button pressing here.

As for the ending itself, I'm sure there is going be a few plot holes if you look into it much. I had a little look over on the Bioshock wiki to help me grasp some of the endings finer points, and some of the questions I had where explained by audio recordings I missed, such as Comstocks age and sterility.

I don't really feel the need to dig too much deeper, probably only ruin it on myself.

I have to agree now. I just watched the ending again on youtube. It is so damn emotional and sad. Its a great ending and I just dont want to dig anymore at it and leave it as a great fairytale in my head. Yeah there are plot holes, but feck it. Its god damn fantastic Story.
All the gameplay shortcomings just melt in the awesome story.

I really hope they will make some good dlc, and not just some ****y arena challange type DLCs.

Azza

Alot of changes made from the early preview builds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5it-pAYmKY

Bookers force like telepathy.
Elizabeths different powers that Booker can interact with.
Different voice actors.
Slightly different appearance of Elizabeth.
A villian that doesn't show up at all in the full game.
Completely unused gameplay area.
Death of Crows vigor is more powerful.
Different visual effect when being shot.

The only thing that looks the same are the shotgun and sniper rifle.
The lady sweeping the floor in the store on fire is reused in a different area in the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDpYVLhSong

Similar here, only more parts of it are used in the full game, but at different times and in different locations. The trailers also give the impression sky hooks are going be used more than they actually are. Also notice the posters of a young Comstock as well.

More changes than Aliens Colonial Marines :P

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Azza wrote: »

A villian that doesn't show up at all in the full game.

god I hope it's included in the dlc, just for the rage


hopefully the skyhooks are used more in the dlc too, i've come to appreciate bioshock infinite more on my second go around. I must have been in a bad mood or something for the first 6 hours of my playthrough, but i'm still a bit sore that the skyhooks weren't used much at all

Dermighty

Duggy747 wrote: »

Solid game for me which I'll return to for the 1999 mode.

One of the best games I ever played, what's preventing me playing 1999 mode (I completed it on the hardest difficulty setting) is the Handymen, I found they were so stupidly broken for the playstyle I used that I eventually killed them by exploiting minor faults in their AI, ie: by standing in doorways and just strafing to fire and back in, maybe 30 times to kill them. For enemies with such potential, I found the biggest enemies were very disappointing!

twinQuins

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

[...] if we assume elizabeth is *around* 18 then she was possibly born 1894

So the baptism must be between 1890-1893 and seeing as comstock makes no reference to a inkerton role (but overplays his wounded knee role) then the baptism must have been in 1891.

In one of the last scenes in Booker's apartment, there's a calendar marking the year as 1893; I believe it's the part where Robert is given Anna.

Now, in Elizabeth's tower, there're charts marking her growth; the last one is age seventeen. The game is set in 1912, Booker handed her over in 1893, leaving a nineteen year period in between the two events.

Given that we can assume Booker joined the Pinkertons either after Wounded Knee in 1890 or later, in 1891. In the prisons, going to get Chen Lin, he notes that the Pinkertons were the kind of people brought in to break strikes (the Homestead Strikes being the big ones in 1892) and that he himself used some questionable methods to do so - reflecting on the torture of Chen Lin.

However, Booker doesn't state whether he was working for the Pinkertons at the time of the baptism, only that it was 'after the Battle of Wounded Knee'.

So, there's only so much we can glean from being given dates. If we look at Booker's character then it also makes sense that it was before he joined the Pinkertons.
In the universe we initially play through, he refuses baptism - in my opinion, this marks his unwillingness to forgive himself for his actions at Wounded Knee which means he hasn't set aside that part of himself. Remember, in the First Lady Zeppelin, Elizabeth asks how he does it, referring to killing people so easily, and how he can forget all he's done.
Booker explains that he doesn't, you just have to learn to live with it. Isn't that the kind of attitude that could lead a man to working for the Pinkertons and slipping into gambling debts and drinking?
The kind of attitude that might lead him to refuse being baptised and forgiven of his sins?

Also, remember that Booker's wife died giving birth to Anna. Something like that would also contribute to his resorting to drinking, at least.

So, given all that I'd say that puts the date if the baptism closer to 1890 than 1893 and Anna's birth closer to if not in 1893.

Antar Bolaeisk

Dermighty wrote: »

One of the best games I ever played, what's preventing me playing 1999 mode (I completed it on the hardest difficulty setting) is the Handymen, I found they were so stupidly broken for the playstyle I used that I eventually killed them by exploiting minor faults in their AI, ie: by standing in doorways and just strafing to fire and back in, maybe 30 times to kill them. For enemies with such potential, I found the biggest enemies were very disappointing!

I lucked out on two of the Handymen, one was stuck on the scenery and another died for some reason or other, no idea why. The other two were an absolute pain in the behind, they moved so fast and there was no way I could get close to them that it just became a war of attrition. The one that arrives after the death of Fink was particularly painful as not only did I have to kill it but do so while also fending off a horde of Vox Populi.

Kirby

Dermighty wrote: »

One of the best games I ever played, what's preventing me playing 1999 mode (I completed it on the hardest difficulty setting) is the Handymen, I found they were so stupidly broken for the playstyle I used that I eventually killed them by exploiting minor faults in their AI, ie: by standing in doorways and just strafing to fire and back in, maybe 30 times to kill them. For enemies with such potential, I found the biggest enemies were very disappointing!

Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »

I lucked out on two of the Handymen, one was stuck on the scenery and another died for some reason or other, no idea why. The other two were an absolute pain in the behind, they moved so fast and there was no way I could get close to them that it just became a war of attrition. The one that arrives after the death of Fink was particularly painful as not only did I have to kill it but do so while also fending off a horde of Vox Populi.

There is a gear you can equip that makes you do 50% more damage to Handymen. Makes them a little more manageable.

Mr. K

Great game, the ending didn't quite blow my mind the way the first game's twist did though. The possibility that Booker was Comstock popped into my head at one stage early in the game, but I was just running through possible twists! It was well handled though. Levine's decision to work closely with the voice actors paid off; every role was played beautifully. Elizabeth's voxophones as you go to rescue her the second time are particularly good.

I suspected that baptism would reappear, since it was a memorable image in the opening scenes and never really referred to. I didn't expect it to be quite so integral though.

M!Ck^ wrote: »

A couple of things, first off

When you save Elizabeth by pulling the leaver and when you turn around that ****ing thing stares you right in the face, I screamed like a girl for about 30 seconds!

That scared the life out of me too. They did exactly the same thing early in the first Bioshock, but this was way more effective because you spend time avoiding the Boys of Silence just before!

Looking forward to my 1999 mode run!

Dermighty

Kirby wrote: »

There is a gear you can equip that makes you do 50% more damage to Handymen. Makes them a little more manageable.

It wasn't the speed at which they die that annoyed me, I like that they are very tough, it was that their mechanics are ridiculous, they are the largest enemies in the game, yet they move faster than any other enemy and do more damage with any one of their attacks than any enemy. It made no sense that they couldn't be beaten with electricity (ie stunned) or at least controlled or something.

Kirby

Dermighty wrote: »

One of the best games I ever played, what's preventing me playing 1999 mode (I completed it on the hardest difficulty setting) is the Handymen, I found they were so stupidly broken for the playstyle I used that I eventually killed them by exploiting minor faults in their AI, ie: by standing in doorways and just strafing to fire and back in, maybe 30 times to kill them. For enemies with such potential, I found the biggest enemies were very disappointing!

Upgraded electricity gives you a few seconds. Crows works well too.

FutureGuy

Finished it on 1999 mode. Enjoyable ending but I had a feeling Booker was Comstock.

Going to play through on Easy just to soak up everything.

SirLemonhead

Haven't finished it yet and accidentally spoiled it for myself by popping into this thread but I had a strong feeling that Booker was Comstock too good to know I was right. 13 hours into it now and hoping it'll end soon. It's a liiiiitle bit too long and is starting to overstay it's welcome.

I hate the Handymen too. They are too fast and always managed to end up right in your face which makes them a pain to take out.

Shock Jockey + Handcannon is awesome

Mr. K

Oh, I forgot to mention the music. Between the covers and the original score, it's amazing.

I loved this, really adds tension to that first Songbird encounter:

tok9

Mr. K wrote: »

Oh, I forgot to mention the music. Between the covers and the original score, it's amazing.

I loved this, really adds tension to that first Songbird encounter:

Completely agree.

My favourite from the game would have to be Elizabeth's theme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFxiBP0UFrI

ShadowHearth

Guys, you know how how after credits they show booker going to the child's room, but never show the child it self?
We assume that paradox was fixed and Anna is a normal child and all that never happens. Though Booker gets up from the same table as in flash backs. It still has guns, horse bet tickets, alcohol etc. So he still did all the Beting and I presume he still lost? So nothing changed? Or that would be just something devs overlooked and forgot to do some changes? Or I am looking too deep in to it.

Burning Eclipse

Finished this late last night. I woke up this morning still thinking about it. I can't remember a game that left me feeling this way before. Need more time to figure it all out in my head, but overall I found this to be a thoroughly satisfying experience.

FutureGuy

Burning Eclipse wrote: »

Finished this late last night. I woke up this morning still thinking about it. I can't remember a game that left me feeling this way before. Need more time to figure it all out in my head, but overall I found this to be a thoroughly satisfying experience.

Dat final battle. I came into it very poorly stocked. It was almost impossible until I changed gear to Winter Shield. Easy mode.

FutureGuy

Overall, I thoroughly enjoyed the ending. The Rapture moment was brilliant and a very pleasant surprise (the joys of staying away from spoilers) and I'm happy with the explanation. The moment when baby Anna loses the finger was a big moment.

I'm going to chew on the ending for a while longer to draw my own conclusions before reading the thoughts of the rest of the internet.

Elizabeth made this game. I cannot imagine another entry to the series where you are all alone.

Somnus

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Guys, you know how how after credits they show booker going to the child's room, but never show the child it self?
We assume that paradox was fixed and Anna is a normal child and all that never happens. Though Booker gets up from the same table as in flash backs. It still has guns, horse bet tickets, alcohol etc. So he still did all the Beting and I presume he still lost? So nothing changed? Or that would be just something devs overlooked and forgot to do some changes? Or I am looking too deep in to it.

I think it's that Booker might still make a lot of the same mistakes he did before, but he doesn't give away Anna. No one comes looking for her.

Burning Eclipse wrote: »

Finished this late last night. I woke up this morning still thinking about it. I can't remember a game that left me feeling this way before. Need more time to figure it all out in my head, but overall I found this to be a thoroughly satisfying experience.

Totally agree. Went to play something else last night and just felt... like there wasn't a point. You don't get that sort of character development and story driven experience enough. A real work of art

Liam O

Does choosing the bird or the cage make any difference no?

I'm far happier with that ending than I am with the ending in movies I've seen recently with similarly complicated plots like inception and Looper. Maybe It's because I was interacting with this one but I'm able to fully accept the rules of this universe though the after credits scene kinda throws that into disarray I think. My theory was that Elizabeth was bringing together all of the universes and killing Booker at that point in time, ergo no Booker and no Elizabeth/Anna. Maybe she only brought down the ones who became Comstock though.

Was there a universe change after Daisy was killed? Because surely Comstock doesn't exist in a universe where Booker died a martyr's death? Unless this was another one where he gave up Elizabeth i suppose...

The ending is something to chew on anyway.

ShadowHearth

By the way lads. Am I the only one who is very disappointed by such a lack of interaction with Songbird? All game we just get it cut scenes. Then we command it in the last chapter. That's it... It was support to be a big daddy on steroids and so under used and over explained.

The second enemy I was really looking forward to was the fella with metal mask? Blind and huge "ears"? He was in that "hospital" place. That was my favourite part in all game.

Somehow I really think they had such a chance and so under delivered

FutureGuy

ShadowHearth wrote: »

By the way lads. Am I the only one who is very disappointed by such a lack of interaction with Songbird? All game we just get it cut scenes. Then we command it in the last chapter. That's it... It was support to be a big daddy on steroids and so under used and over explained.

The second enemy I was really looking forward to was the fella with metal mask? Blind and huge "ears"? He was in that "hospital" place. That was my favourite part in all game.

Somehow I really think they had such a chance and so under delivered

I think my personal biggest disappointment was the fact that the Songbird story wasn't fleshed out more, but I can understand why they did not do it. Honestly, it's a story doesn't need explaining. It's monsterous and has a specific raison d'etre. But it would have been nice all the same, especially given the Ultimate Efition of the game is the Songbird edition AND contains a giant fecking statue of the character!