Bioshock Infinite - 'The Ending' Discussion Thread (Spoilers Spoilers Spoilers!)

degrassinoel

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Mod: ^^ Text added to stop spoilers from showing on thread hover in main forum.

The ending was crap.

was nice to see rapture for all of ten seconds, was expecting way more from the tears than it gave.

The game is good but it doesn't deserve the ridiculously high scores it got from critics.

deano546

Just finished it.

My mind is broken.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

just finished it there

don't really like the ending. surely the lutece's could have just gone and smothered dewitt themselves rather than putting us through the rigmarole of playing the game.

*shrug*

it was worth 36 euro anyway, don't feel short changed.. just disappointed. I'd hoped to love it.

--edit

15 hours... ntb

Kirby

A question to those who have finished it. I'm on

Comstock's airship at the moment, several stories up.

Am I near the end of the game? I feel like I am at any rate. An hour left? More or less?

The bit where you

see old, tortured, defeated Elizabeth in the furure tear was absolutely heartbreaking. Hearing her resist her torture waiting for DeWitt to show up was so sad......especially as we knew he would never come.

I feared that that would be the end of her and there was no going back so I was relieved when she handed you the code for the bird and then sent you back to rescure her former self.

Yes, it was a cliche sci-fi trope in a way but they executed it brilliantly in my eyes.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Kirby wrote: »

A question to those who have finished it. I'm on

Comstock's airship at the moment, several stories up.

Am I near the end of the game? I feel like I am at any rate. An hour left? More or less?

[/spoiler]

yeah you're very close to the end. under an hour i'd say

Zombrex

The combat is annoying, but everything else is brilliant. The ending is basically

Looper, (I imagine Levine was annoyed when that movie came out)

but for me the thing that really sets it apart is the environments and the detail from the

fall into the artificial beach (I assumed I had fallen off Columbia) to the music from the 1980s when Columbia destroys New York that is playing in the background everywhere

Zombrex

Not unsurprisingly people have started to pick apart the ending. I think that is just inevitable with any story that involves

time travel and multiple universes and paradoxes

Needless to say HUGE SPOILERS in the following link
http://www.oxm.co.uk/51623/features/why-bioshock-infinites-ending-doesnt-work/?page=1

While a lot of their points are valid, the ending does have plot hole issues, it is some what missing the point a bit.

Burning Eclipse

Setting this up, because plenty of people are now finished the game, and the ending is generating discussion in the regular thread. Enough to warrant a thread of it's own imo.

I have not finished the game and will not be back here until I do.

Propane Nightmare

Why create an thread about a certain games ending when you haven't even finished the game yourself yet?

Mr E

Because they make the main thread difficult to read? People want to post as they are playing it, and there are already a few posts like:

Just finished it there,

blah blah blah....

.

Some people don't want the ending spoiled on them (particularly since this one allegedly so good). Since the ending posts seem to be spoilered in the main thread, I'll move those posts here now.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

someone that occured to me as I was starting up a 1999 mode playthrough

how the hell did slate not realise that dewitt was comstock?

he fought with dewitt, he recognised dewitt in the game.. but because dewitt gets baptised, grows a beard and changes his name.. slate doesn't recognise him anymore?

--edit

also.. walking into the city for the first time and walking over the bridge reminds me of charlie brookers pleasant neighbourhood simulator from gameswipe...

Venom

Finished it last night and felt very unsatisfied with the ending. Then again Bioshock 2 had a pretty crap ending as well so I was expecting something similar with this game

pablomakaveli

I felt the ending was a bit too messy and full of holes.

For example Elizabeth killing Booker creates a time paradox. If he dies at the baptism then she never exists to drown him there.

Also given we've seen that there are multiple universes whats the point of killing him when he may still exist in many other universes. How does killling him in the one universe put a stop to what happens i the other ones?

They should have really went for a more simplified ending but they over reached and we have a weaker ending for it.

KilOit

Why is there spoiler tags on all the posts in a spoiler thread??
I'm on a phone and its a pain to read them!

Lone Stone

just finished it there, was a good game well worth the money. The ending, well i actually just said to myself at the reveal thats was f**ing retarded and made zero sense, it was one of those cop out moments of story telling thats usually a big no no, its akin to ending a book with "and it was all a dream".

But regardless i felt the last hour or two of the game was my most enjoyable, but the end just made it all pointless nonsense.

Zombrex

Apparently the ending took 4 months to work out, so I'm guessing the plot holes are not as plot holey as they seem at first.

Though having said that Lost had 5 years and the writers still messed that one up.

Lord TSC

Finished it and loved it.

I've always been a sucker for "Alternate Dimensions and Timelines" stories, so it was right up my street. Linking the lighthouses, the whole Lutece duo plot, the trip to rapture, just loved it all. And it's an ending which actually seems to have generated quite a bit of discussion which is always great.

Now, a second run through for all the audio logs!

Kirby

Well, im not sure what to make of the ending. It might require some more thought before I weigh in properly.

But one thing struck me quite strongly. Elizabeth sees all and knows all through the tears at the end. she is willfully leading you to your death......

Man, thats cold . I suppose you could say he had it coming but still.....it left me a little unfulfilled.

Lord TSC

On top of that, she's doing it knowing that in the process, "Elizabeth" ceases to exist; no Comstock, no her, since her upbringing would completely change

Kirby

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

On top of that, she's doing it knowing that in the process, "Elizabeth" ceases to exist; no Comstock, no her, since her upbringing would completely change

Yeah that is what the post credits scene appears to be all about. The Comstock version of booker....the one who rejected the baptism.....is drowned. And it appears to me Comstock is drowned in all universes because all the Elizabeth's do it to you.

So the Booker who accepted the baptism wakes up, goes into the nursery and there is his child.....because no Comstock exists to take her from him.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

there was a scene after the credits?

whoops

Kirby

It's short. Black and white, booker is back in his room. There is the jingle of the baby chime, he turns and enters the room with the crib and says "Anna?". Fade to black.

It implies that with Comstock booker drowned and dead, DeWitt booker keeps the child.

Zombrex

Kirby wrote: »

It's short. Black and white, booker is back in his room. There is the jingle of the baby chime, he turns and enters the room with the crib and says "Anna?". Fade to black.

It implies that with Comstock booker drowned and dead, DeWitt booker keeps the child.

Call me crazy, but I think because you end up back in the room where you always go when you die, that this is sort of like heaven, that "heaven" is an alternative reality (I think Ken Levin is an atheist, and he certainly seems critical of religion, so I imagine he doesn't believe in the Christian notion of heaven).

So Booker dies by drowning and just like he has died a hundred times during the game and he ends up in the but this time with Anna.

Or something ...

[edit]Actually just read an ending that makes more sense - Booker only killed himself after accepting the baptism, so Comstock never existed. But the book that refused the baptism still did, and still had Anna[/edit]

Duggy747

I quite liked the ending:

Wasn't ground breaking or terribly original but I liked how it played out (the realisation that Elizabeth is your daughter and how she lost her finger). There's about a solid 15 - 20 minute wrap up after you're done shooting the final bullet, which I liked, rather than killing the boss and then instant credits..........leaving me a bit cold that the game has suddenly ended.

Solid game for me which I'll return to for the 1999 mode.

BlitzKrieg

its interesting how the ending changes some perspective

combstock didnt lie to slate or the world about his involvement in the events of little big horn etc, he just embraced it from his nutso religious perspective over booker's guilt ridden one, I wonder if he had told slate he was booker would he have rebelled? The age problem still persists as a problem to me, I would have thought slate would have made some comment on booker looking so young if he is meant to be combstock's age, maybe I missed it.

also

I missed 10 recordings out of the 68 in total which I really want to find now, mostly I'd like to know how Preston's (the big game hunter who adopts the native american kid) story came to a close. last one I found was that he and the kid where going after combstock

Vokes

BlitzKrieg, re: age. Comstock's older appearance is due to accelerated aging (and cancers?) caused by his constant mucking about with other tears/universes. The female Lucrete mentions it in one of the audio recordings.

...

One thing that didn't hang doesn't hang well together is that Comstock's worldview of blacks/chinese/etc... is totally at odds (seemingly) with Booker's worlview. Was there an explanation for this?

...

Looking forward to giving this a playback and picking up all the little nods that I missed e.g. thinking back to the hotdog seller ... "and one for your daughter".

BlitzKrieg

Vokes wrote: »

BlitzKrieg, re: age. Comstock's older appearance is due to accelerated aging (and cancers?) caused by his constant mucking about with other tears/universes. The female Lucrete mentions it in one of the audio recordings.

Ahh that must have been 1 of the 10 I missed.

One thing that didn't hang doesn't hang well together is that Comstock's worldview of blacks/chinese/etc... is totally at odds (seemingly) with Booker's worlview. Was there an explanation for this?

religion?

Booker is not necessarily a modern man who embraces people of all ethnic and cultures, but he is a man who has lived with guilt for a number of years. I also assume his work as a pinkerton came after wounded knee so I'd imagine he developed a very cynical view of the world (as noted from some of the loading screen comments, a welcher is always a welcher) while comstock has had that guilt wiped away by religion and embraces american exceptionlism in its most horrific manners.

Spear

People may want to brush up their quantum mechanics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

And explicitly in the game:

Comstocks planning board on his airship showed where he was picking his preferred branch each time.

Antar Bolaeisk

One of the major things that annoyed me about the ending was that I'd already called DeWitt as being Comstock but at the point you kill Comstock I inspected his right hand yet there was no AD writ upon it so I assumed I was wrong.

Overall it was an excellent game though sadly suffers the same fate as anything which attempts timetravel and dimension(probability?) hopping in that the story loses the run of itself and causality goes out the window. They also assume two conflicting views of timetravel. Will probably play it again as I think some things will stand out more now that I know what to look for (and I should probably not play it on 1999 mode as it was damn tough in parts).

Spear

Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »

One of the major things that annoyed me about the ending was that I'd already called DeWitt as being Comstock but at the point you kill Comstock I inspected his right hand yet there was no AD writ upon it so I assumed I was wrong.

DeWitt only branded his hand after giving away Anna/Elizabeth, so Comstock couldn't have the brand.

BlitzKrieg

One of the major things that annoyed me about the ending was that I'd already called DeWitt as being Comstock but at the point you kill Comstock

Oh I went through a lot of thoughts like that, in one message the wife calls dewitt's child *bastard* and that set me off thinking the reveal was going to be that Elizabeth isnt the lamb but dewitt was in some far stretched way.

Dropped that fairly early on for alternative dimension versions when I clicked who the twins were, but I was swapping dewitt for elizabeth because of the whole age thing again and not comstock and dewitt, which is why I never really jumped on him being her father until the last third of the game. Also the fact I wasnt getting a fatherly protective vibe from the dewitt and elizabeth relationship.

The game came very close to going into and I'll spoiler tag this for those who have not seen the film:

Oldboy territory with how I was perceiving booker's and elizabeth up until the asylum,

Antar Bolaeisk

Spear wrote: »

DeWitt only branded his hand after giving away Anna/Elizabeth, so Comstock couldn't have the brand.

Ah that makes sense. Guess I'll need to watch it again to get all the timelines straightened out.

Somnus

Have to say I really enjoyed the ending. Obviously anything that contains multiple universes etc can get a bit confusing, but I agree with what the article and a few other posters are saying about how all the Elizabeth's drowned the version of Booker that would become Comstock, and the deWitt version was left unaffected.

I'd say a second play through would reveal a whole lot of nods to what is really happening.

Also, the moment Robert Lutece says that Comstock washes away your sins when you give him Anna was a :eek: moment!!
I really didn't see that coming and I think that was the best moment of the game.

So, I assume that the Elizabeth we know from the game is completely gone then? Leaving only the version of her as Anna with deWitt, unaware of what has happened in the alternate dimensions?

Stev_o

I just want to know what the point of Slate was. He recognizes Booker from service but seems to know nothing about what happened to him after Wounded Knee etc

ShadowHearth

Okay, i just finshed it up. I loved the wraping up way. I though it was really damn good, but the more time passed from ending the game, the more I get of "wait a minute? wtf? why did this happen like that" etc...

Anyway, good game, but I think that Bioshock 1 was still a lot better game. I know a lot of people hate bioshock 2, but bioshock 2 had a better gunplay too.

*now hides in fear.

soap1978

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Okay, i just finshed it up. I loved the wraping up way. I though it was really damn good, but the more time passed from ending the game, the more I get of "wait a minute? wtf? why did this happen like that" etc...

Anyway, good game, but I think that Bioshock 1 was still a lot better game. I know a lot of people hate bioshock 2, but bioshock 2 had a better gunplay too.

*now hides in fear.

I agree bioshock 1 and 2 where alot better,didnt like the powers in this one at all.I would give it a 7 out of 10.

Kirby

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Okay, i just finshed it up. I loved the wraping up way. I though it was really damn good, but the more time passed from ending the game, the more I get of "wait a minute? wtf? why did this happen like that" etc...

Anyway, good game, but I think that Bioshock 1 was still a lot better game. I know a lot of people hate bioshock 2, but bioshock 2 had a better gunplay too.

*now hides in fear.

From a purely narrative point of view, I get what you are saying. There is a definite finality to the story in the first. The twist in the first comes a lot earlier so you have more time to appreciate it and also Rapture is a more dangerous environment.

However, while it is great to talk about the first game with other people.....there is not much to say beyond the twist. It is what it is. Beyond, "Wasn't it great?" and "Did you see it coming?" there isn't much to say.

There is a lot more to Infinite.....it's more complex and has more themes running through it. It gets you thinking a lot more than the first. In my opinion anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I think Bioshock 1 was great and has a great story that anyone can enjoy. Infinite deals with plot points that it takes a sci-fi person to appreciate and that could weaken it's mass appeal. I'm still convinced that most of the people who played through it.....didn't get it. Didn't actually understand the ending.

Now that might be a storytelling failure on the part of the developers. Or it might just be the problem when you deal with time travel or multiple dimensions. Who knows? But while I enjoyed Bioshock 1 immensely, I didn't really care about the characters. Jack is a mute. The little sisters have little personality. I cared about what happened to Booker and Elizabeth and for me, that is a bigger success.

Lord TSC

Vokes wrote: »

that didn't hang doesn't hang well together is that Comstock's worldview of blacks/chinese/etc... is totally at odds (seemingly) with Booker's worlview. Was there an explanation for this?

I'd imagine that's down to the "religion" thing; Comstock was highly religious, and 191 America would have been very down on those races. I actually loved the "Anti-Irish" aspect of the world, cause I studied that aspect of American history during my MA, and its something that tends to get ignored. A religious zealot like Comstock, especially one trying to indoctrinate people into his way of thinking, would likely play on people's prejudices in order to make them his followers.

Some questions on the tears; they seem to imply that tears open gateways into alternate versions of history, but is there ever any exploration into the timetravel aspect of them? There's obviously some tears (red ones, if I remember right) which glimpse the future (with music playing through them), and someone has obviously taken some songs from them and integrated them into Colombian society. And the first time you see Elizabeth, she opens a tear to 1983 (as seen by the fact the cinema is showing Return of the Jedi). And obviously there's the whole "Going back to the point of Booker's baptism" thing. But is there ever much discussion about the fact the tears can be used for time travel in the game? I don't remember much...

Randall Floyd

Kirby wrote: »

From a purely narrative point of view, I get what you are saying. There is a definite finality to the story in the first. The twist in the first comes a lot earlier so you have more time to appreciate it and also Rapture is a more dangerous environment.

However, while it is great to talk about the first game with other people.....there is not much to say beyond the twist. It is what it is. Beyond, "Wasn't it great?" and "Did you see it coming?" there isn't much to say.

There is a lot more to Infinite.....it's more complex and has more themes running through it. It gets you thinking a lot more than the first. In my opinion anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I think Bioshock 1 was great and has a great story that anyone can enjoy. Infinite deals with plot points that it takes a sci-fi person to appreciate and that could weaken it's mass appeal. I'm still convinced that most of the people who played through it.....didn't get it. Didn't actually understand the ending.

Now that might be a storytelling failure on the part of the developers. Or it might just be the problem when you deal with time travel or multiple dimensions. Who knows? But while I enjoyed Bioshock 1 immensely, I didn't really care about the characters. Jack is a mute. The little sisters have little personality. I cared about what happened to Booker and Elizabeth and for me, that is a bigger success.

Agreed, the character development feels better than in Bioshock 1, Elizabeth in particular.

ShadowHearth

Kirby wrote: »

From a purely narrative point of view, I get what you are saying. There is a definite finality to the story in the first. The twist in the first comes a lot earlier so you have more time to appreciate it and also Rapture is a more dangerous environment.

However, while it is great to talk about the first game with other people.....there is not much to say beyond the twist. It is what it is. Beyond, "Wasn't it great?" and "Did you see it coming?" there isn't much to say.

There is a lot more to Infinite.....it's more complex and has more themes running through it. It gets you thinking a lot more than the first. In my opinion anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I think Bioshock 1 was great and has a great story that anyone can enjoy. Infinite deals with plot points that it takes a sci-fi person to appreciate and that could weaken it's mass appeal. I'm still convinced that most of the people who played through it.....didn't get it. Didn't actually understand the ending.

Now that might be a storytelling failure on the part of the developers. Or it might just be the problem when you deal with time travel or multiple dimensions. Who knows? But while I enjoyed Bioshock 1 immensely, I didn't really care about the characters. Jack is a mute. The little sisters have little personality. I cared about what happened to Booker and Elizabeth and for me, that is a bigger success.

I liked characters in First and second bioshock. What I really loved about those two, that you were building up all the knowladge about your enemy before even meeting him.
I f you remember the very first "boss" type fight in bioshock 1. It was that crazed plastic surgery fella. you were constantly finding more details about him and what has he done. So by the time I was fighting him, i knew he is one messed up bastard, that I dont want to let near me!

Now I would recomend any bioshock game. Each of those games have awesome stuff to experience. Though saying that, the only thing that keeps all stuff together in Infinite is quite interesting Story, which starts to wrap up only waaaaay deep in the second half of the game.
Funny enough this game had me on rollcoaster of "like/dislike" opinion. I loved it when started, then in the middle of the game it just became meh. Only when you start to look for Elizabeth mother it picks up the plot and goes more interesting direction. From that point it got to a "i need to do one more chapter and i will go do X thing" state for me.
Now I LOVE bioshock 1. I find it still better then Infinite. The ending of infinite was satisfying ( in a way ), but after that it just closes down the door on whole bioshock franchise. you can make some ICE city now, but you will still know that some girl named Elizabeth is ****ing around with time and universe like it is her own personal bitch/bitches on some floating city. I loved that they put in Rapture in the ending, but it made rapture to be such an insignificant place, because in Columbia they have power of controlling time and universe etc...

I loved infinity story and setting, but the gameplay was pants compared to two first ones. Callofdutysissed 2 weapon limit. Upgrade paths for weapons pants and boring. they dont even change how weapon looks ( they cant, because you swap weapons every 2 minutes ), plasmids Vigors, were very basic and boring. they did not even felt powerful. Let alone all of the enemies in the second part of the game become bullet spunges.

I might sound very "negative", i am sorry. I still loved this game and Money were well spent, but I dont really thing that comparing it to Bioshock 1 and saying that it is improvement on EVERYTHING is quite fair.

p.s. I loved the feeling in Bioshock 1, when i needed to take down Big Daddy. On every single fight would end up in your death or you barely alive. Taking down one of them was an achievement on its own. It felt satisfying.

Kirby

ShadowHearth wrote: »

I it just closes down the door on whole bioshock franchise. you can make some ICE city now, but you will still know that some girl named Elizabeth is ****ing around with time and universe like it is her own personal bitch/bitches on some floating city

That's not true at all and just proves my point about people not getting the ending. Elizabeth no longer exists. She drowned every version of Booker that became Comstock. So now Booker DeWitt no longer gives Anna away.

She just stays as a normal child.....the source of her power was losing her finger in one dimension while the rest of her was in another.....in two places at once. That's why she could open and even create the tears. So by never giving her away, none of that happens.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

surprised comstock never figured that out, lambs on demand

Somnus

Kirby wrote: »

That's not true at all and just proves my point about people not getting the ending. Elizabeth no longer exists. She drowned every version of Booker that became Comstock. So now Booker DeWitt no longer gives Anna away.

She just stays as a normal child.....the source of her power was losing her finger in one dimension while the rest of her was in another.....in two places at once. That's why she could open and even create the tears. So by never giving her away, none of that happens.

Agree with you there. All though I didn't really get that the finger was the source of her power, then again I hadn't really thought about how she had it.

I think the same about her now being just a normal kid. Gave the ending a kinda bittersweet taste, cause neither of them are ever going to be aware of everything that happened now. And to think that the Elizabeth we know so well by the end of the game doesn't exist now

Ah I loved it! The more I think about the ending the more I think I appreciate it.

ShadowHearth

Kirby wrote: »

That's not true at all and just proves my point about people not getting the ending. Elizabeth no longer exists. She drowned every version of Booker that became Comstock. So now Booker DeWitt no longer gives Anna away.

She just stays as a normal child.....the source of her power was losing her finger in one dimension while the rest of her was in another.....in two places at once. That's why she could open and even create the tears. So by never giving her away, none of that happens.

I am a bit confused on that one allright. The way I see it she killed him in that universe, but the rest if universes are still in paradox state. Killing him in one universe does not change the outcome of the rest of them.
I need to watch the ending again. I am still confused lol

Antar Bolaeisk

ShadowHearth wrote: »

I am a bit confused on that one allright. The way I see it she killed him in that universe, but the rest if universes are still in paradox state. Killing him in one universe does not change the outcome of the rest of them.
I need to watch the ending again. I am still confused lol

I think we could extrapolate from the final scene that all the Elizabeths have killed all the Bookers who were going to go down the Comstock path.

Kirby

ShadowHearth wrote: »

I am a bit confused on that one allright. The way I see it she killed him in that universe, but the rest if universes are still in paradox state. Killing him in one universe does not change the outcome of the rest of them.
I need to watch the ending again. I am still confused lol

Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »

I think we could extrapolate from the final scene that all the Elizabeths have killed all the Bookers who were going to go down the Comstock path.

Exactly. Several Elizabeth's drown the player.....who all look different. Implying that it's happening across all the universes. So Anna never becomes Elizabeth because Comstock will never exist. She just stays a normal girl.

Which of course, gives a whole new meaning to their song choice for the Barbershop Quartet. "God only knows what I'd be without you".

Quite clever.

Stev_o

But whats the deal with the Red tears you see with music playing?

degrassinoel

Games mods, can you delete my spoilers from the first post in this thread? I didnt know it was going to be merged/split and as a result when you hover over the topic the spoilers are revealed which may annoy some people.

Jet Black

Kirby wrote: »

She just stays as a normal child.....the source of her power was losing her finger in one dimension while the rest of her was in another.....

I don't think thats correct. Her power was because she was experimented on. The Lutese twins (who were not actually twins but the same person in two dimensions) can be seen opening a tear and pass the baby Anna through. They had the technology. The experimented on her and eventually she didn't need the machine to open tears, she could just do it. She was then locked up and there was a machine in the tower that stopped her from using her powers fully.

Antar Bolaeisk

Stev_o wrote: »

But whats the deal with the Red tears you see with music playing?

Some tears were occurring (un)naturally, probably a result of the Lutece experimentation causing tears in the space-time continuum or whatever. The different colour was probably just a design choice to mark them as different for the player.

Vokes

Jet Black wrote:

I don't think thats correct. Her power was because she was experimented on. The Lutese twins (who were not actually twins but the same person in two dimensions) can be seen opening a tear and pass the baby Anna through. They had the technology. The experimented on her and eventually she didn't need the machine to open tears, she could just do it. She was then locked up and there was a machine in the tower that stopped her from using her powers fully.

There's a recording in Monument Tower in which Rosalin Lutece implies that Elizabeth leaving her finger behind was the source of her powers.

Also, there's a timeline chart in the same lab showing that the machine, the Siphon, wasn't built until Elizabeth was well into her teens to control her escalating powers. Although, you might be referring to other machines prior to this?