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Ethnically Catholic...

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    #62
    Midlife Crashes
    Registered Users Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Midlife Crashes


    shopaholic01 wrote: »
    Numbers falling in developed countries with access to education, conversely numbers are increasing in under-developed countries with poor or non-existant education. Coincidence?

    Christianity is declining in the West around the time that the Western World is slowly loosing is standing on the world stage. In contrast it is growing in developing countries that are gaining standing on the world stage.
    In China estimates point that there are up to 130 million Christians. 50 years ago there were under 500 thousand..


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    #63
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Midlife Crashes wrote: »
    Christianity is declining in the West around the time that the Western World is slowly loosing is standing on the world stage. In contrast it is growing in developing countries that are gaining standing on the world stage.
    In China estimates point that there are up to 130 million Christians. 50 years ago there were under 500 thousand..

    Yeah but in China 130 million people is like a small town in Mayo.


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    #64
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,161 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Midlife Crashes wrote: »
    Christianity is declining in the West around the time that the Western World is slowly loosing is standing on the world stage. In contrast it is growing in developing countries that are gaining standing on the world stage.
    In China estimates point that there are up to 130 million Christians. 50 years ago there were under 500 thousand..

    Why are those two related?

    I mean, you could say that traditional christian values that the west was founded on were not strong enough to survive and that's why it declined. Or you could be saying that it's declining because people let go of those values. If it's that, how can you demonstrate that those values are what gave the west political dominance since the mid 1800's (I won't include before because although there was some contact, the world was really just isolated spheres before that point. And any argument for christian dominance could be made just as equally for buddhism in the far east or islam in the middle east)


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    #65
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,161 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    krudler wrote: »
    Yeah but in China 130 million people is like a small town in Mayo.

    To be fair, evangelical faiths are exploding across the far east. There's huge numbers in Korea for example. There are even some areas that catholicism is expanding in.


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    #66
    shopaholic01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,916 ✭✭✭shopaholic01


    Grayson wrote: »
    Actually, on that survey I posted earlier the higher your level of education, the less likely you were to attend mass.
    Education - the work of the devil!
    Grayson wrote: »
    EDIT: I just read some more of the survey. 5.8% of catholics do not believe in life after death. And 10% believe in reincarnation.
    Now that's strange. Surely that's the main selling point for religion - eternal/after life?


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    #67
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,161 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    shopaholic01 wrote: »
    Education - the work of the devil!


    Now that's strange. Surely that's the main selling point for religion - eternal/after life?

    I think they're talking about people who ticked the box for catholic. So that would mean that an additional 5% of catholics are athiests, like Dara O'Briain. :)


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    #68
    Midlife Crashes
    Registered Users Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Midlife Crashes


    Grayson wrote: »
    Actually, on that survey I posted earlier the higher your level of education, the less likely you were to attend mass.

    Christianity is growing in places with poverty. In these places the IQ levels are obviously lower. In developed countries there is no real correlation between intelligence and faith..


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    #69
    padd b1975
    Registered Users Posts: 10,718 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    Midlife Crashes wrote: »
    Christianity is growing in places with poverty. In these places the IQ levels are obviously lower. In developed countries there is no real correlation between intelligence and faith..
    What makes you think a persons IQ is related to how rich or poor they are?


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    #70
    shopaholic01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,916 ✭✭✭shopaholic01


    Midlife Crashes wrote: »
    Christianity is growing in places with poverty. In these places the IQ levels are obviously lower. In developed countries there is no real correlation between intelligence and faith..
    It's limited or lack of education that's a factor, as opposed to IQ.


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    #71
    BrokenArrows
    Registered Users Posts: 7,500 ✭✭✭BrokenArrows


    They should add new questions.

    Q. Do you practice the above stated religion.
    A. Yes/No

    Q. If Yes how often.
    A. Daily, Weekly, Monthly, Only on Religious holidays.


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    #72
    Midlife Crashes
    Registered Users Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Midlife Crashes


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    What makes you think a persons IQ is related to how rich or poor they are?

    In places where IQ is lowest (70's or less) are mainly poor countries. Tanzania, Uganda, South Africa, Senegal, Nigeria, Mali, Kenya, Ivory Coast, Guatamala, Ghana and Angola...


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    #73
    ABajaninCork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,411 ✭✭✭ABajaninCork


    Midlife Crashes wrote: »
    In places where IQ is lowest (70's or less) are mainly poor countries. Tanzania, Uganda, South Africa, Senegal, Nigeria, Mali, Kenya, Ivory Coast, Guatamala, Ghana and Angola...

    Based on what exactly? The fact that the majority of the people in the countries you mention are not white??

    Please say that isn't what you mean...


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    #74
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Fromthetrees wrote: »
    That's what made me create the thread.

    The thought that most people don't listen to the Catholic Church yet are Catholic in many of their behaviors.
    Go to mass every so often and be nice in front of the priest. God will be none the wiser. ;)
    Midlife Crashes wrote: »
    Christianity is declining in the West around the time that the Western World is slowly loosing is standing on the world stage. In contrast it is growing in developing countries that are gaining standing on the world stage.
    I've heard this nonsense before. Europe isn't really losing it's standing. If anything it's power is growing through more cooperation. Europe is still the heart of advanced engineering. While iPods and the like are manufactured in China the west designs them and then tells them exactly how to make them. If we're not very specific with our instructions the Chinese mess it up.

    The developing countries have been developing for decades and have missionaries in them for longer. The only reason the church can convert so many is because their uneducated and desperate for a European lifestyle.


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    #75
    Boo2112
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭Boo2112


    ABajaninCork wrote: »

    Based on what exactly? The fact that the majority of the people in the countries you mention are not white??

    Please say that isn't what you mean...
    That is the best twisting of words I have ever seen. Bravo.

    I think (hope) two more generations and catholicism is fvcked in this country. I can't wait for the day church and state seperate.


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    #76
    stmol32
    Registered Users Posts: 718 ✭✭✭stmol32


    Fromthetrees wrote: »
    So, as a nation, are we actually atheist but ethnically Catholic?

    I would say this means that as a nation we have too many hypocrites.

    If it was just laziness of thinking I could probably forgive but the census is literally asking you to stand up and be counted.

    Still huge amounts of people are falling over themselves to be in the club even though they have no intention of following the club rules and might not even believe in anything it stands for.

    I say "might not" believe because we'll never be sure because the one time we try to do an accurate count, otherwise non-believers suddenly decide they want to be part of the statistics (for reasons I can't fathom but I'm sure they are varied and wide).


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    #77
    ABajaninCork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,411 ✭✭✭ABajaninCork


    Boo2112 wrote: »
    That is the best twisting of words I have ever seen. Bravo.

    I think (hope) two more generations and catholicism is fvcked in this country. I can't wait for the day church and state seperate.

    I twisted nothing. I quoted the post and asked what the poster meant. What did you think I meant??


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    #78
    frankie_fisher
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 64 ✭✭frankie_fisher


    Fromthetrees wrote: »
    Off the top of my head the last census put the number of Catholics at nearly 90%, considering there's about 5% Protestant and we've got plenty of Muslims and Hindus and other religions does that mean there's almost a clean sweep of essentially everyone considering themselves to be a Catholic.

    Mass attendance is at an all time low, the Catholic Church has never had such little influence on society in the history of our state yet it's very rare someone won't have their child Christened or won't get married in a church or won't have their funeral in a church.

    So, as a nation, are we actually atheist but ethnically Catholic?


    ireland is still culturally catholic

    the rate of church attendance in sweeden is less than 10% but that country is still culturally lutheran

    religon ( like it or not ) has had a profound influence in shaping various countries charechter


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    #79
    stmol32
    Registered Users Posts: 718 ✭✭✭stmol32


    Devon High Radiator wrote: »
    There are a lot more practicing Catholics of all ages out there than the atheists and church bashers would like to admit.......

    ......Every sunday its hard to get parking at the church (various different ones) and there is always a good crowd, I think a while back churches looked a bit quieter but recently there is always plenty at mass again.

    This is the problem in a nutshell. There may well be more practicing Catholics than we realise. I suspect there isn't but I can't know that until there is an accurate count.

    You may reckon it's harder to get parking before and I may reckon the two church car parks I can see from my flat are only ever used at 5:30 which is funeral time. The point is neither is right unless we have accurate statistics.


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    #80
    Madam_X
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    Can't remember the census now but is there a box that says "Catholic - non practising"? Because that's what I reckon a lot of people would select. They're baptised catholic so they are essentially catholic, just not observing it.


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    #81
    shopaholic01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,916 ✭✭✭shopaholic01


    Madam_X wrote: »
    Can't remember the census now but is there a box that says "Catholic - non practising"? Because that's what I reckon a lot of people would select. They're baptised catholic so they are essentially catholic, just not observing it.
    No, that option is not there.

    http://www.census.ie/_uploads/documents/English_Household_form_with_do_not_complete_stamp_-_2011.pdf


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    #82
    stmol32
    Registered Users Posts: 718 ✭✭✭stmol32


    frankie_fisher wrote: »
    ireland is still culturally catholic

    the rate of church attendance in sweeden is less than 10% but that country is still culturally lutheran

    religon ( like it or not ) has had a profound influence in shaping various countries charechter

    Just because a certain influence was present in a countries past does that mean it should be a used as a catch-all label to define the the country when that influence has waned?

    For example England has a low church attendance and is quite secular but Anglicanism also has had a profound influence in shaping that countries character yet I wouldn't call it culturally Anglican.

    Another profound influence on England's character was the acquiring of an Empire, they weren't alone in this of course as lots of countries have this past including Sweden,yet it would be unfair to call England an imperial nation in this century (or would it?)

    I don't necessarily disagree with you I just thought you raised a good point that deserved a bit of discussion.


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    #83
    Fromthetrees
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,846 ✭✭✭Fromthetrees


    stmol32 wrote: »
    I would say this means that as a nation we have too many hypocrites.

    If it was just laziness of thinking I could probably forgive but the census is literally asking you to stand up and be counted.

    Still huge amounts of people are falling over themselves to be in the club even though they have no intention of following the club rules and might not even believe in anything it stands for.

    I say "might not" believe because we'll never be sure because the one time we try to do an accurate count, otherwise non-believers suddenly decide they want to be part of the statistics (for reasons I can't fathom but I'm sure they are varied and wide).

    That's what I want to understand better, I'm a Catholic and can speak as Gaeilge but can't really do either properly.


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    #84
    frankie_fisher
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 64 ✭✭frankie_fisher


    stmol32 wrote: »
    Just because a certain influence was present in a countries past does that mean it should be a used as a catch-all label to define the the country when that influence has waned?

    For example England has a low church attendance and is quite secular but Anglicanism also has had a profound influence in shaping that countries character yet I wouldn't call it culturally Anglican.

    Another profound influence on England's character was the acquiring of an Empire, they weren't alone in this of course as lots of countries have this past including Sweden,yet it would be unfair to call England an imperial nation in this century (or would it?)

    I don't necessarily disagree with you I just thought you raised a good point that deserved a bit of discussion.


    i meant it was culturally lutheran in a religous context , very few countries have no religous influence of any kind , im not saying its a possitive or a negative btw , just a reality

    incidentally , i would not describe ireland as ethnically catholic ,i dont like that description


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    #85
    McTigs
    Registered Users Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭McTigs


    Devon High Radiator wrote: »

    I don't agree with getting rid of catholic education in national schools or secondary schools either.
    religious belief is personal thing for each person, their families, their faith community. I'd never seek to disparage someones personal beliefs but If parents want to raise their children catholic they should be taking that responsibility on themselves, be it at home or as part of a sunday school organised in their parish. Religion has no place in a national education system.


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    #86
    stmol32
    Registered Users Posts: 718 ✭✭✭stmol32


    frankie_fisher wrote: »
    i meant it was culturally lutheran in a religous context , very few countries have no religous influence of any kind , im not saying its a possitive or a negative btw , just a reality

    incidentally , i would not describe ireland as ethnically catholic ,i dont like that description

    I agree it would be foolish to say a nation has no religious influence and I'd go further and say it would be a shame to ignore that influence completely when taking about culture because you then deny some properly majestic and awe inspiring sights (looking at you high crosses, round towers and St. Michan's church).

    I just don't want the nation I am accidentally part of to be defined by only one influence when there are many more that have made us who we are.

    Not sure how to crowbar this into my post but I particularly hate when some media or political talking head utters that truly vile statement "this is a catholic country you know". I can't tell ye how that makes me blood boil.

    The only saving grace is that they seem to have subtly changed it to "this is still a catholic country you know" so they seem to know which way the wind is blowing.


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    #87
    stmol32
    Registered Users Posts: 718 ✭✭✭stmol32


    stmol32 wrote: »
    The only saving grace .....


    Hah, wrote that without realising, maybe we are culturally catholic after all....Jaysis (that too).


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    #88
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    From the 2011 Census figures in Wikipedia . . . . . .

    Roman Catholic (RC) 84.2%
    Lapsed Roman Catholic 0.03%

    Only 0.03% have lapsed, I find that hard to believe.


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    #89
    Henlars67
    Registered Users Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭Henlars67


    LordSutch wrote: »
    From the 2011 Census figures in Wikipedia . . . . . .

    Roman Catholic (RC) 84.2%
    Lapsed Roman Catholic 0.03%

    Only 0.03% have lapsed, I find that hard to believe.



    Wikipedia is an incredibly reliable source of information


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    #90
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    I hear you, but its funny to read it none the less.


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    #91
    frankie_fisher
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 64 ✭✭frankie_fisher


    stmol32 wrote: »
    I agree it would be foolish to say a nation has no religious influence and I'd go further and say it would be a shame to ignore that influence completely when taking about culture because you then deny some properly majestic and awe inspiring sights (looking at you high crosses, round towers and St. Michan's church).

    I just don't want the nation I am accidentally part of to be defined by only one influence when there are many more that have made us who we are.

    Not sure how to crowbar this into my post but I particularly hate when some media or political talking head utters that truly vile statement "this is a catholic country you know". I can't tell ye how that makes me blood boil.

    The only saving grace is that they seem to have subtly changed it to "this is still a catholic country you know" so they seem to know which way the wind is blowing.


    i dont like the " this is a catholic country line " at all , such statements are nearly always used when someone is moralising to others , i was refering to culture , to me , religon is largely cultural


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