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Religion,superstition and spirituality

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    #152
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    Sarky wrote: »
    Of course we do. It still doesn't mean you can fill in the gaps with any old claptrap that appeals to you.
    Unfortunately, it means all human knowledge ultimately depends on some old claptrap that appeals to someone.

    Reality is incomprehensible, unless we adopt some opening bias. Obviously, we always want to contend that our claptrap is better than the other guys. But, ultimately, the only measure is subjective; does it work for you? Does it make you satisfied?

    There's a bit at the end of the anniversery edition of the Selfish Gene, where Dawkins says one reader of the original edition told him that the book had plunged him (the reader) into a profound depression for several years. I can't say it had the same effect on me - I found it a thought provoking book, and I went on to read the Origin of Species, as Dawkins' book made me realise that I really didn't understand what evolution was all about. But, if it's going to have such a profoundly negative impact on someone, such that it takes the joy out of several years of their life, they'd be better off not reading it.


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    #153
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    The only way you can make that comment with certainty is if you assume that an interventionist god that reveals himself to people and may chose to do so in the future doesn't exist. So even you have wrote off the Christians' god :P :pac:

    Correct, that is my assumption, I don't believe in an interventionist God in any causal sense as this would be a violation of our free will. Attempts to claim an interventionist God in my view are attempts to claim God for a particular culture, which is irrrational in my view.


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    #154
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »
    Unfortunately, it means all human knowledge ultimately depends on some old claptrap that appeals to someone.

    Reality is incomprehensible, unless we adopt some opening bias. Obviously, we always want to contend that our claptrap is better than the other guys. But, ultimately, the only measure is subjective; does it work for you? Does it make you satisfied?

    This "we could be brains in a jar" line of argument never goes anywhere useful. The assumption that reality is me typing this in Cork with my fingers and sending it to a server where you can read it from wherever it is that you're reading this... This assumption gets results. It works for everyone. And it doesn't stop working. The assumption that there's something else out there like a god or magic or ESP or whatever, that only gets results when it happens to guess correctly.

    Fantasy is great for exercising the mind, but it leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to using something as a basis for living your life.
    There's a bit at the end of the anniversery edition of the Selfish Gene, where Dawkins says one reader of the original edition told him that the book had plunged him (the reader) into a profound depression for several years. I can't say it had the same effect on me - I found it a thought provoking book, and I went on to read the Origin of Species, as Dawkins' book made me realise that I really didn't understand what evolution was all about. But, if it's going to have such a profoundly negative impact on someone, such that it takes the joy out of several years of their life, they'd be better off not reading it.

    I hope you're not expecting me to feel sorry for the guy that read the book and got depressed? I once read a Robocop/Batman erotic slashfic piece and that plunged me into a profound depression, do I get sympathy hugs? I've gone through a couple of years of depression myself after some serious illnesses, so I can sympathise with the chap and his loss of a few years, I really can. But depression can be dealt with. You can make it go away. Reality, despite humanity's best efforts for the past hundred thousand years, has managed to stick around somehow.

    Life is difficult and complex, and there is nothing to suggest there's anything but oblivion waiting for you at the end. Anyone who says otherwise is lying or selling something, or both. Burying one's fears in religion won't make them go away. Avoiding harsh truths doesn't make them go away. As far as we can tell (because lol brains in a jar lol), reality appears to be pretty objective, and it looks like it's here to stay, and we're all going to have to deal with that.


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    #155
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    Sarky wrote: »
    Fantasy is great for exercising the mind, but it leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to using something as a basis for living your life.
    Hard to judge. For whatever reason, lots of people freely choose to follow a religion. I don't see any particular reason for preferring one form of claptrap over another.
    Sarky wrote: »
    I hope you're not expecting me to feel sorry for the guy that read the book and got depressed?
    No, feeling sorry for that guy is irrelevant to the point I was making there. So are whatever mental health problems you've had. My point (if you read it again) was that the only real standard in choosing a form of claptrap is subjective - what the person experiences.
    Sarky wrote: »
    Burying one's fears in religion won't make them go away.
    Maybe it will, for someone. If it does, they'd be a damn fool not to practice a religion.


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    #156
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    Sarky wrote: »
    Burying one's fears in religion won't make them go away.

    Sarky, hundreds of millions of people all over the world and billions of people in history "believe" what their "faith" informs them. Have you never met anyone who was devoutly religious? Anyone who lived their lives and went to their deaths in the full belief and expectation that there is an afterlife? Who are you or anyone for that matter to tell these people their approach to their lives is wrong? Just because an atheist cannot bury their fears in religion says nothing about how someone with any kind of spiritual belief handles their fears.


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    #157
    Geomy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭Geomy


    Sarky would be described as a strident Atheist,if there was more of him on this planet I'm afraid there would be absolute mayhem...

    Maybe he is having a laugh,that's acceptable or he likes satire etc

    Imagine being religious and putting up with his s h l T


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    #158
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Oh, well if hundreds of millions of people are doing it then it must be right.

    Geomy, you are being just adorable with your attempt at being passive aggressive. Please, by all means imagine being religious and putting up with my "s h | T". It might give you some insight into why there are atheists in the first place.


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    #159
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    Sarky wrote: »
    Oh, well if hundreds of millions of people are doing it then it must be right.
    I think its more that, if hundreds of millions of people are doing it then they probably have a reason. No-one can definitively state what's right.

    Oh, and there's a bunch of physicists who say our attachment to a commonsense belief in objectivity and consistency is cute and adorable.


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    #160
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Geomy wrote: »
    Sarky would be described as a strident Atheist,if there was more of him on this planet I'm afraid there would be absolute mayhem...

    Maybe he is having a laugh,that's acceptable or he likes satire etc

    Imagine being religious and putting up with his s h l T

    On behalf of everyone here, I'd like to thank you for yet another quality post. Please continue to contribute your wisdom to our greater benefit.


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    #161
    Geomy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭Geomy


    Sarky wrote: »
    Oh, well if hundreds of millions of people are doing it then it must be right.

    Geomy, you are being just adorable with your attempt at being passive aggressive. Please, by all means imagine being religious and putting up with my "s h | T". It might give you some insight into why there are atheists in the first place.

    I have no problem with Atheists in general or religious people...

    As long as they keep their negative opinions on people's beliefs or no beliefs to themselves :)

    Actually this is the only place I come across people saying religious,superstitious and spiritual people are deluded its great those type of people have a forum to vent etc etc

    That goes down ok in here with the strident types but in the real world hun its called being ignorant,nasty or down right rude...

    There's far more intelligent people than me in here but the difference is you're coming across as a person who uses emotion over intellect...

    I think there should be an Agnostic forum here for those who like having conversations without their ideas or posts being reduced to a joke...

    Agnostics or Agnostic Atheists seem.to engage in a more respectful non condescending way :)


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    #162
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    But it's totally fine to air YOUR negative opinions about other people, yeah? Is that how that works? Please tell me more of this "real world" I clearly know nothing about. It sounds like a truly magical place, hun. I'll bet there are no differences of opinion, and the lack of dissenting voices means everything is just hunky-f*cking-dory.


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    #163
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »
    Unfortunately, it means all human knowledge ultimately depends on some old claptrap that appeals to someone.

    Reality is incomprehensible, unless we adopt some opening bias. Obviously, we always want to contend that our claptrap is better than the other guys. But, ultimately, the only measure is subjective; does it work for you? Does it make you satisfied?

    Where did you get that idea?

    If you are on a plane and I blow up the engine you will objectively crash and be objectively dead. There is no point arguing about "world views" then.


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    #164
    Geomy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭Geomy


    Sarky wrote: »
    But it's totally fine to air YOUR negative opinions about other people, yeah? Is that how that works? Please tell me more of this "real world" I clearly know nothing about. It sounds like a truly magical place, hun. I'll bet there are no differences of opinion, and the lack of dissenting voices means everything is just hunky-f*cking-dory.

    I couldn't tell ya Sarky,its a well kept secret...
    I just don't get it why you can be so condescending to posters in here :S

    Some of the Agnostics make valid points about spirituality and you just can't see what they are saying.
    It doesn't click at all,mindfulness,spirituality have nothing to do with religion..

    I don't need to prove anything but Spirituality and mindfulness is practiced all over the world,it works for those.who are willing to participate or have an open mind :)


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    #165
    Popinjay
    Registered Users Posts: 507 ✭✭✭Popinjay


    Geomy wrote: »
    That goes down ok in here with the strident types but in the real world hun its called being ignorant,nasty or down right rude...

    Or patronising.


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    #166
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    Zombrex wrote: »
    Where did you get that idea?

    If you are on a plane and I blow up the engine you will objectively crash and be objectively dead. There is no point arguing about "world views" then.
    Except that our beliefs have a lot to do with how bothered we'd be as the plane starts falling from the sky. They also have a lot to do with whether we'd ever be so bothered by a difference of opinion that we'd shoot a plane out of the sky to make a point.

    Your act of aerial homicide has as much reality as a unicorn; ironically, it only exists in your mind. I can assure you I don't see it as a real threat. I'm actually on holiday abroad today. Can I assure you I have no concerns that my return journey will be interrupted by a Zombrex guided missle.

    But for what it's worth, there simply are puzzles that don't sit well with an assumption of an objective reality (an example is already linked to the thread, and I don't see the point of repeating it if it's just being ignored.) Objective reality, I'm afraid, is just something we have to assume.


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    #167
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »
    Except that our beliefs have a lot to do with how bothered we'd be as the plane starts falling from the sky. They also have a lot to do with whether we'd ever be so bothered by a difference of opinion that we'd shoot a plane out of the sky to make a point.

    Your act of aerial homicide has as much reality as a unicorn; ironically, it only exists in your mind. I can assure you I don't see it as a real threat. I'm actually on holiday abroad today. Can I assure you I have no concerns that my return journey will be interrupted by a Zombrex guided missle.

    But for what it's worth, there simply are puzzles that don't sit well with an assumption of an objective reality (an example is already linked to the thread, and I don't see the point of repeating it if it's just being ignored.) Objective reality, I'm afraid, is just something we have to assume.

    Again assuming your plane won't crash won't make the slightest bit of difference as you are hurtling to the ground. People like to talk about subjective reality when the are proposing fanciful ideas or wishful thinking and don't want resistance. That is easy when there are no consequences to being right or wrong. But when you are hurtling from the sky you want to objectively have a parachute that objectuvely works, and the ground isn't going to give a hoot about the fanciful or romantic notions you have.


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    #168
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    Zombrex wrote: »
    Again assuming your plane won't crash won't make the slightest bit of difference as you are hurtling to the ground. People like to talk about subjective reality when the are proposing fanciful ideas or wishful thinking and don't want resistance. That is easy when there are no consequences to being right or wrong. But when you are hurtling from the sky you want to objectively have a parachute that objectuvely works, and the ground isn't going to give a hoot about the fanciful or romantic notions you have.
    Holy missing the point completely, Batman.

    Is there any point in trying to point you to the pertinent issues identified in the last few posts?


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    #169
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »
    Holy missing the point completely, Batman.

    Is there any point in trying to point you to the pertinent issues identified in the last few posts?

    Sure, if any of those points demonstrates how the subjective choosing of a world view keeps planes in the sky, knock yourself out.


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    #170
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    Zombrex wrote: »
    Sure, if any of those points demonstrates how the subjective choosing of a world view keeps planes in the sky, knock yourself out.
    But, sure, all I have to offer is my subjective experience that planes fly. Have you something else to contribute?


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