Buying bitcoins

Grumpypants

Yikes that was fast. Under 10 mins to raise $12 million :eek:

I spent my 2 ETH and got 3.8 GNO tokens, decided to splash another 3ETH but by the time it transferred to the wallet it had sold out.

Now to wait and see what use they are.

cnocbui

krustycustomer wrote: »

I bought 25 euro (max first purchase) on belgacoin to my email instead of a wallet. Where is it now? How do i sell it?

What was in the email - don't tell us literally - just a rough description?

If it contained a string of about 16 random words then I might have an idea.

The Cuban

Yes that was some Auction. It was amazing how easily they raised the $12.5 million. They could easily have gone $100 a GNO and still have sold out. I put in 50 ETH through Kraken so I`ll have to wait and see how many GNO I got, I suspect around 70. I like this concept and the people behind Gnosis so am happy to invest/(take a punt). Nothing ventured nothing gained.
I think we will see a lot more fund raising done this way in the future, the thing is you`ll have to judge each one on its merits as there will be more $hitecoins to come out.

https://youtu.be/Q5R8KuxV4A0

scamalert

The Cuban wrote: »

the thing is you`ll have to judge each one on its merits as there will be more $hitecoins to come out.

fair question how do you know its, not a **** coin you just bought in ?

Now i did just minimal lookup, and honestly every alt coin offers them features give or take open source chain, security and whatever else someone implements into them.

they want to push it into trading market, which is by far populated with prediction tools, and theres no holy grail.

Also i see they have a push towards gambling integration, now have nothing against gambling, but if someone needs to get behind crypto to gamble they have serious issues.

In other words how is it different from another top 50 cryptos out there ?

Just gave whitepaper a read and its basically everything against the guy in the video spoke,he says dont trust ICO that are undeveloped,yet Gnosis is built on etherum and basically yet doesnt have any built up software ? 12mill in profit, guess if done right will be to fund storage and bandwith, but when i see claims youll be able to put in number and see future outcome thats selling a dream, since in the market forecasting can be made usually combining past data yr1+yr2 gives estimate for next year, theres no leap in knowing answer for yr3.

Since what i read is they are heavy on trading side, which given if few predictions are wrong its just another tool in the line of thousands.

to be clear not hatting or anything here, just curious whats different in this case.

makeorbrake

scamalert wrote: »

fair question how do you know its, not a **** coin you just bought in ?

That's the difficulty that I have also. I know there is no such thing as unbiased media but is there anything resembling a site that takes a fair stab at presenting a relatively independent review of each crypto - outlining their strengths and weaknesses - particularly their u.s.p.?? ...one which is updated on a regular basis?

For the most part, I don't see any of these current crop of crypto's as being a threat to BTC. They may offer a niche offering which means that they can exist and be relevant alongside BTC. However, the concern I always have is that someday someone will get the formula right (at a time perhaps when the BTC take the currency in the wrong direction) - and gain inititiave and momentum at the expense of bitcoin.

I'd imagine for anyone who is in the business of holding BTC (as opposed to shorting or day trading it), this is of equal relevance - and if we're not reasonably on the pulse of what's emerging, our investments could become dust. May seem unlikely right now but 'unlikely' isn't sufficient when dealing with your savings. I know the mantra that's cast out is don't put anything into BTC that you can't afford to lose but whilst taking that on board, I'd prefer to try and see to it that risk is minimised.

With that, anyone with any links to such crypto comparisons?

cnocbui

Not that I am looking that closely, so I may be wrong, but I have yet to read about any of these alt coin "features" actually being put to any notable use in the world, so if their supposed value lies in these features, I think they are going to struggle.

I skimmed the Gnosis spiel - and that's exactly what it struck me as - and thought it was too difficult to try and decipher to see what the salient points were supposed to be. As far as I am concerned, anytime people write complicated prose, instead of making things clear and simple, it's because they have an intent to puff something up and to obfuscate and deceive.

Maybe I am wrong and am too stupid to understand it fully and see the value, but I suspect the buying frenzy is just a scramble by people trying to get in on the ground floor of an IPO for a product they actually don't understand in the hope of a huge killing.

Warren Buffet said he doesn't invest in companies or markets he doesn't understand, which was his answer to why he kept away from the tech sector and Apple in particular. He just bought big in Apple so I suspect he understands them now.

I don't understand Gnosis so I stayed away, also don't have any Etherium anyway.

scamalert

well theres mention in gnosis papers that developers will be able to create trading forecasting software and sell it or license it for users, now knowing a bit about trading can only say good luck with that.

since as i see it, they took smth based on etherum blockchain,did they own spin off version code compatible, created promo where guy at the end struggles to come up with what he is actually supposed to sell gnosis is made few articles and promo debut for auction, for smth that yet has to be built on.

reminds me of shark tank or dragon den, where people come in say i have this product x , it will do this and that. All seems fine

when asked about numbers they spill like million users whatever

and once asked about how much they are worth they put in 7 digit number in this case,but once asked how will they get there and shown examples of other products that exist and basically are same or better developed then its game over, since whatever cash will be poured eventually will dry out or someone better will take its place.

The Cuban

Yeah, lots of good points as to why these Alt-coins are worthless. Its true many are absolute rubbish and there is a big market correction coming. A lot of the trash is going to get burnt.
With regards to Gnosis, its the Market space that they are targeting is what attracted me. They are going after the prediction market, aka every type of predilection from gambling to Presidential elections to choosing the site of a new School. Not all predictions will necessarily have a monetary outcome but they will be able to run on this Blockchain and Gnosis is aiming to be the currency for this to happen.
If they succeed and are not a scam then happy days, Gnosis will have a market cap in the many Billions.
As it stands Gnosis is just a whitepaper and a roadmap, yes they could walk away now with the money, but that's the risk I guess.
Feels like Ether did when I bought them at $9.11 which at the time I had the same concerns.

cnocbui

The Cuban wrote: »

Yeah, lots of good points as to why these Alt-coins are worthless. Its true many are absolute rubbish and there is a big market correction coming. A lot of the trash is going to get burnt.
With regards to Gnosis, its the Market space that they are targeting is what attracted me. They are going after the prediction market, aka every type of predilection from gambling to Presidential elections to choosing the site of a new School. Not all predictions will necessarily have a monetary outcome but they will be able to run on this Blockchain and Gnosis is aiming to be the currency for this to happen.
If they succeed and are not a scam then happy days, Gnosis will have a market cap in the many Billions.
As it stands Gnosis is just a whitepaper and a roadmap, yes they could walk away now with the money, but that's the risk I guess.
Feels like Ether did when I bought them at $9.11 which at the time I had the same concerns.

I must be missing something. Who is going to provide the expertise to create these prediction systems? The people behind Gnosis?

Isn't this one of those: 'I have a really great idea for this amazing software/website that will make a fortune, if there are any software engineers interested in coding it for me I will let them have 10%' kind of things?

Pretty sure developers capable of writing complex, functional and accurate prediction platforms can manage their own subscription/payment module.

I don't see why you need blockchain tech, either.

Grumpypants

This is just my take on it, so as always take it with a pinch of salt as it could be completely wrong.

But I got the impression that the "prediction tools" mentioned were nothing more elaborate than a voting system like a "we asked 100 people if they thought stocks would go up or down" type thing. But due to Ethers decentralised, incorruptible platform, it means those predictions can't be interfered with and that is why it is a more stable platform.

The idea isn't that GNOSIS predicts the future, they are just some sample ideas of what can be built on their tech. GNOSIS just makes it easier to build on Ether.

It is much more like Game Development. At the lowest "machine level" code is basically 1s and 0s and is really hard for a person to understand.

So they built a programming language on top of it, like C++/Javascript, that is easier to understand and work with. But it takes ages to build a game from the ground up.

So companies built Game engines like Unreal 4 and Unity on top of that language making it faster and easier as it does some of the work for you.

This is what I think GNOSIS is, they aren't selling prediction tools, they are selling a platform that makes it easier to build on Ether.

pro_gnostic_8

That 12 million raised in the ICO was from the sale of only 5% of the tokens. The overwhelming 95% remains in the hands of the developers. This values the instantly created wealth-holdings of the developers at around $290 Million. (Must be tempting to unload some of this for profit when the token goes live-trading next week on Poloniex).
I wouldn't touch this with a barge-pole.

scamalert

So they built a programming language on top of it, like C++/Javascript, that is easier to understand and work with. But it takes ages to build a game from the ground up.

no they didn't, all altcoins use some commonly used coding languages btc uses c++ java and anything else people come up with,same with all other altcoins.

difference being some are able to write such codes and most not, but to insist that they built platform on open source code which can be used by anyone as said in gnosis white paper and run their own blockchain, that's where im puzzled at what is actually they try to sell .

cnocbui

I was just visiting Belgacoin and they now have a new site/function whereby you can have an account with them and send bitcoin to it. That would get around the delay with selling if you pre-load your wallet.

Belgacoin.com is becoming a Bitcoin, Litecoin and Dogecoin wallet, too! Our wallet is very simple and geared towards smaller amounts. This service is free. You are welcome to try the beta, but we do not offer any warranty of any kind, and we do not assume any liability or responsibility for our wallet.

As usual, caveat emptor.

The Cuban

cnocbui wrote: »

I don't see why you need blockchain tech, either.

That tells me all I need to know

makeorbrake

pro_gnostic_8 wrote: »

The overwhelming 95% remains in the hands of the developers.

Isn't this in a similar vein to the many crypto's which have been described as 'pre-mined'. i.e. upon hearing that, one can more or less assume that it's not going to be a venture with integrity and more likely a pump n dump.

Once again, if anyone comes across something that resembles an independent review of the features, pros/cons of altcoins, please post here. It would be a very beneficial tool in order to gain a basic knowledge of what each one offers - and with that, determine if it's worthwhile spending more time still investigating the potential of a given altcoin....

cnocbui

The Cuban wrote: »

That tells me all I need to know

I await your learned explanation with baited breath.

chipfox

I don't think altcoins offer anything personally, other than acting as a form of a casino. Nearly all of them are just bitcoin/litecoin forks.

Bitcoin will remain valuable as long as it lets you transfer value outside of traditional systems. I don't know who that's valuable to but it is a unique form of utility.

I think bitcoin is too high risk as a form of traditional investment right now. The biggest exchange for USD won't let you withdraw it, and the big three Chinese exchanges won't let you withdraw bitcoins! This is completely dysfunctional.

scamalert

chipfox wrote: »

Bitcoin will remain valuable as long as it lets you transfer value outside of traditional systems. I don't know who that's valuable to but it is a unique form of utility.

think more as long as it provides people way to use it alongside traditional currency yet not be tied to any major governing entity which is happening now it will be used for a long time.

Since it has no value as a code, but until there are people willing to pay to get it and places or others willing to accept it as means of pay, and that all infrastructure is built with wallets and different places taking it that's what matters.

cnocbui

I think the alt coins exist for the financial benefit of those who create them. I am not personally greatly interested in them

Bitcoin currently has a market capitalisation of around $22 Billion, which lends it a certain gravitas. I personally have found it to not only be a safe investment, but one of the best performing ones I have ever made. Better than Irish property or negative Irish bank yields, by a country mile.

I wouldn't touch a Chinese exchange with a bargepole. I don't see why they should be the yardstick by which Bitcoin is measured or rated; plenty of European and US based alternatives, such as Kraken. Not dysfunctional at all if you avoid China. If you don't keep your bitcoin on an exchange, the issue of withdrawal doesn't even arise. The keys to mine are safe and within arms reach.

My Bitcoins have increased in value 24.6% in the last 30 days. The equivalent amount sitting in my Bank has done nothing. It might as well be under my mattress.

scamalert

you say spare money but its smth you worked for, i hardly doubt there's, many people in the world that would be ok to invest into digital item which has no physical value at all ,with 20% monthly risk basis, at very least.

Since you might see it as investment but if it was going another way at that rate you would call it gamble.

Im ok with btc being crypto currency as in able to buy and sell smth with it globally and convert to fiat .

chipfox

I don't like the bitcoin market capitalisation figure. It's technically accurate minus 50 bitcoins (the genesis block cannot be spent), but with the amount of addresses containing amounts less then the minimum acceptable miner fee, the amount of coins lost/burnt over the years, the possibility that all of Satoshi's bitcoins are lost and all of the stolen bitcoins sitting dormant (including an encrypted wallet from the Silk Road, the 200,000 left over from MtGox, 120,000 lost from BitFinex, the number of liquid bitcoins is a small fraction of the total. Probably a good thing for speculators banking on the finite supply, but very poor for something that's supposed to be used as currency.

Bitcoin's value is hindered by so much. Just recently all the BitMain ASICs were found with what is effectively a kill switch, and we're talking 2/3 or more of the entire bitcoin hashrate. If you thought the high fees were bad, expect them to climb dramatically if that kill switch goes off. Not to mention average confirmation times of 30 minutes until the next difficulty adjustment!

I think anybody buying bitcoins in 2017 is mad as a brush. Unless you're buying them to buy drugs or can arbitrage the Bitfinex premium with a swiss bank account it's just too mental to get involved with today.

scamalert

chipfox wrote: »

I don't like the bitcoin market capitalisation figure. It's technically accurate minus 50 bitcoins (the genesis block cannot be spent), but with the amount of addresses containing amounts less then the minimum acceptable miner fee, the amount of coins lost/burnt over the years, the possibility that all of Satoshi's bitcoins are lost and all of the stolen bitcoins sitting dormant (including an encrypted wallet from the Silk Road, the 200,000 left over from MtGox, 120,000 lost from BitFinex, the number of liquid bitcoins is a small fraction of the total. Probably a good thing for speculators banking on the finite supply, but very poor for something that's supposed to be used as currency.

Bitcoin's value is hindered by so much. Just recently all the BitMain ASICs were found with what is effectively a kill switch, and we're talking 2/3 or more of the entire bitcoin hashrate. If you thought the high fees were bad, expect them to climb dramatically if that kill switch goes off. Not to mention average confirmation times of 30 minutes until the next difficulty adjustment!

I think anybody buying bitcoins in 2017 is mad as a brush. Unless you're buying them to buy drugs or can arbitrage the Bitfinex premium with a swiss bank account it's just too mental to get involved with today.

well thats why btc scales to 0.0000xx but yeah besides eliminating going to western union to send your uncle baabaa some donation for un-certified goods from comfort of your home its pretty useless, given that one spends actual money to buy it, to send it rather paying flat price and having some security that funds wont evaporate into thin air if suddenly someone drops mill into the market and sends it spinning cant think why else anybody would get into any crypto for that matter, since at btc level one can play roulette or poker with better chances at risk/return.

Since economical structure makes as much sense as gamble.

Now not to be total buzz kill, theres market for anything these days, if you told me some kids pay 1k for a skin at steam market id call you crazy yet people spend money on virtual stuff nowadays as easily as real items, so theres millions liquid cash floating in stuff that barely makes any reason nowadays but if someone is willing to pay there will always be someone to make it.

The Cuban

All points with merit,
but Bitcoin keeps on rising, it just wont go away. People are starting to talk about $3000 a coin. Hell I ve seen arguments for valuations from $40,000 to $400 Million per coin.
As soon as Bitcoin gets to mass adaptation around the world then the valuation is anyone's guess. I agree at the moment you cannot do much with Bitcoin, I cant go into my local shop and buy anything with them. But it is the next evolution in money.

makeorbrake

chipfox wrote: »

I think anybody buying bitcoins in 2017 is mad as a brush. Unless you're buying them to buy drugs or can arbitrage the Bitfinex premium with a swiss bank account it's just too mental to get involved with today.

I'm chopping at the bit to double up my investment in btc - but can't justify it at today's levels. I'm waiting on the next 'crisis' (as we know, bitcoin goes from issue to issue albeit that one way or another, it has thus far always overcome them). If I see the community getting past that difficulty and the price is right, I'll buy in.

In the meantime, I have funds that are sitting in a bank account wasting away. I know this is the 'investments and markets' forum and many of you will be horrified by this - but I simply don't understand stocks/shares enough to be comfortable investing in same.

The Cuban

makeorbrake wrote: »

I'm chopping at the bit to double up my investment in btc - but can't justify it at today's levels.

I just keep buying every week. I buy Bitcoin or Ether, but I keep on buying. I keep very little money on deposit as it is getting eroded at the rate of 5% per year. I do own shares, 90 % of my portfolio is in Bank of Ireland shares and if the flotation of AIB is done at an attractive level then I hope to buy into that later this year too.
The Irony of owning these Bank shares is that Bitcoin is going to bring on the next collapse in banking. But not for another few years ahead.

Tigger

The Cuban wrote: »

All points with merit,
but Bitcoin keeps on rising, it just wont go away. People are starting to talk about $3000 a coin. Hell I ve seen arguments for valuations from $40,000 to $400 Million per coin.
As soon as Bitcoin gets to mass adaptation around the world then the valuation is anyone's guess. I agree at the moment you cannot do much with Bitcoin, I cant go into my local shop and buy anything with them. But it is the next evolution in money.

Why would government allow mass adaption of what is trying to be an electronic cash? It seems to me they are trying to do away with cash these days.

makeorbrake

Tigger wrote: »

Why would government allow mass adaption of what is trying to be an electronic cash?

Haven't many of them on initial review tried to ban it and suppress it? Now they try and regulate it - and they can - but only to a certain degree.

So...as regards 'allow', do they really have a choice? They (and the banks) can stymie it's progression. There's plenty of evidence of that - but I don't believe they can stop it. Only some as yet unforeseen technological flaw in bitcoin can stop it. It's scalability issue right now is holding back the manner in which it is being used - but the hope is that bitcoin core will overcome that difficulty.

The Cuban wrote:

I just keep buying every week. I buy Bitcoin or Ether, but I keep on buying. I keep very little money on deposit as it is getting eroded at the rate of 5% per year. I do own shares, 90 % of my portfolio is in Bank of Ireland shares and if the flotation of AIB is done at an attractive level then I hope to buy into that later this year too.

It sickens me to leave hard earned savings lying in a bank account earning nothing - so I totally see your point there.
However, do you not have any concerns about the pricepoint at which you are currently buying in to BTC? Do you not have any fear of a major 'correction' or event (I'm thinking in terms of a technical obstacle - like scaling or what will be the next hurdle, off-chain transactions, etc., etc.)? Presumably, you are of a mind that it's still good value? ...OR....in the absence of value elsewhere, it's acceptable value??

Tigger

makeorbrake wrote: »

Haven't many of them on initial review tried to ban it and suppress it? Now they try and regulate it - and they can - but only to a certain degree.

So...as regards 'allow', do they really have a choice? They (and the banks) can stymie it's progression. There's plenty of evidence of that - but I don't believe they can stop it. Only some as yet unforeseen technological flaw in bitcoin can stop it. It's scalability issue right now is holding back the manner in which it is being used - but the hope is that bitcoin core will overcome that difficulty.
?

The idea that you can move large amounts of money from jurisdiction to jurisdiction untaxed and unaccounted for is almost the opposite of everything the governments (and I mean the real unelected state structures that run countries not political showboaters ) want from a currency.
There are currently huge amounts of American physical dollars outside America used in nefarious transactions or hoarded as wealth this amounts to a negative interest loan to America and is the reason they never discontinue any old notes as it could cause panic and the return of their cash, some people believe that the e500 note was a deliberate attempt to obtain a share of this interest negative loan for the EU as it is a stable high value note.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/11/-100-bills-make-up-80-of-all-us-currency-but-why/265518/

If the us and eu treasurys are looking aren't looking at bitcoin as the enemy I'll eat my hat so to speak.
When you say it can't be stopped I'm interested in how or why you would think that.

The Cuban

makeorbrake wrote: »

However, do you not have any concerns about the pricepoint at which you are currently buying in to BTC? Do you not have any fear of a major 'correction' or event (I'm thinking in terms of a technical obstacle - like scaling or what will be the next hurdle, off-chain transactions, etc., etc.)? Presumably, you are of a mind that it's still good value? ...OR....in the absence of value elsewhere, it's acceptable value??

I do of course fear the worst, but this is it for me, Bitcoin is unstoppable now, money keeps pouring into it everyday yet for one of the most talked about currencies in history it has the lowest value of all currencies
Candy crush saga was sold for $6 billion dollars, Bitcoin is currently worth $18 billion which valuation do you think is crazy?
If Bitcoin captures just 1% of all economic activity around the world then each coin will be worth millions. you will no longer be talking about coins, it will be Satoshi which are 1/100,000,000 of a bitcoin.
As for the Alt-coins, some have value and are not in direct competition to Bitcoin. Others are just scams
As for scaling or off-chain transactions, this will get sorted, there maybe volatility before and during but by investing constantly every week I am gaining some week and getting less others but it balances out and the overall trend of the chart is upwards.

scamalert

this actually came from page talking about exchanges ,so theoretically if your large enough entity and are able to push into the market which is unregulated and decentralized you could run up millions in actual cash and close down,and you cant complain to anyone