A question for atheists??

doctoremma

I married in a civil ceremony. I would never have children baptised, and certainly not to get them into a good school. My funeral with be humanist and I will be buried/burnt/other (haven't decided, waiting to see what's best for the environment) in public facilities.

The above is also the case for the vast majority of my friends and family.

Now, I don't live in Ireland, which means that my answers in themselves might not be relevant to many. And I'm certainly not chastising those who do opt for religious options in their life. Nor am I proclaiming to be a 'better atheist' than anyone here.

It's clear that the social freedom I have to make my choices is the difference. I don't view those who opt for baptism to get their child into a good school as a measure of their 'hypocrisy', I view it as the sorry reflection of how tightly their hands are bound.

eviltwin

I got married in a registry office. My youngest child hasn't been bapthised and won't be. My eldest was, much to my regret I allowed myself to be bullied into it. She is now atheist and doesn't participate in religious events in school with our consent. I'm hoping to send my youngest to an ET school and seriously considering home schooling if that doesn't happen.

Re burial etc I hope to have a non religious funeral, I hope to be cremated. My husband is religious and wants to be buried so I guess my ashes can go in with him maybe but I've made it clear I want zero religious input.

I did try to get counted out but my request was refused. About a week later the website went so that was that. I'm not going to tell any priest about my lack of religion, why would i? The people who matter, my family, know and respect it.

lazygal

We didn't have a church wedding and won't baptise. I'd rather homeschool than do a magic water ceremony and go along with a baptism for school reasons. My other half knows what I'd want funeral wise but to be brutally honest there's not much point getting in a strop as I won't care, I'll be dead. We also have declined requests to be godparents and do readings at religious services, this has caused some hassle but we're not ones for going along with things for the sake of appearance.

marienbad

http://youtu.be/afGkv0IT4dU

Gregor Samsa

I haven't been in a church for anything involving me for over 20 years. Had a civil wedding, and my daughter isn't baptised. The two that are on the way won't be either. My funeral is a matter for whoever is left after me, so I don't go it any thought at all. I mark "no religion" on the census.

But that's me, and I wouldn't judge anyone for behaving differently. To each their own.

As regards leaving the church, when I was 6, I joined the Desperate Dan Fan Club. Cost a few quid, and I got a membership pack and everything. 33 years later, I no longer feel the duty to say "... but I'd rather have a Cow Pie!" after every sentence, but I also don't feel the need to contact the Dandy comic to rescind my membership. Same goes for my attitude to the church.

My personal motto is Kein Bestandteil sein. But I wouldn't force it on anyone else.

Turtwig

woodoo wrote: »

We see a fair bit of abuse directed towards Catholics and religious people here on boards. But how many of you atheists have truly divorced yourselves from religion and the church.

How many of you claim to be an atheist but will still be seen walking down the isle of their local church to get married? How many will be seen carrying their child into the church to get baptised and most tellingly of all. How many of you when you die will be carried into the church in a coffin for your own funeral mass and then be brought to the cemetery. Where a priest will oversee you lowered into the ground?

That is gross hypocrisy. How many of you have made efforts to leave the Church and let your local priest know you are now an atheist and do not want any involvement whatsoever with the church, including all the services offered.

For those that have contacted your local priest/church and the archbishop and the Vatican how will you be buried, married etc?

This is strange. Spiritual leaders always harp on about keeping an open mind, so correct me if I'm wrong here, you don't want atheists keeping an open mind about religion and would rather they just ignored it altogether? What happened to central tenets of religion being about saving as many souls as possible? I attend mass every now and again, not just funerals, just to keep up with religious affairs and to try to keep an open mind. Worse case scenario : my criticism of religions will be more informed, accurate and honest. It is also, perhaps somewhat sadly, a way of keeping in touch with what exactly is going on in your local community.

If I were to die tomorrow I'd want those closest to me to dispose of me in whatever matter provides them the most comfort. If that means lobbing my rotting corpse off the side of a cliff and pissing on it, then so be it, that's what I want them to do. As it happens though most of my family are devout Catholics so they'll probably want a proper Catholic funeral for me. I'll be dead so I won't give a damn. They'll be alive, so whatever provides them with solace and comfort I'll agree with.

As for baptism, most people here have covered that topic in beautiful detail.

Tordelback

I was married in the registry office.
Neither of my kids were baptised.
Body to be cremated, no ceremony requested.

It's not complicated.

Kiwi in IE

I never belonged to any religion in the first place. When I was back home recently I asked my parents and surviving grandparent about religion in our families, as it is given such significance in Ireland, compared with New Zealand. All four of my grandparents were/are either athiest or agnostic. Both my parents are athiest. This is probably shocking in Ireland, but quite normal in secular countries.

My partner and I are not married.

Unfortunately I had my son baptised Catholic for the sake of my partner's mother, who was upset that he was not baptised when we first brought him here to visit while still living in New Zealand. As I was living in a secular country I was naive and didn't view religion in the same way I do since moving here and having it shoved down my throat. Interestingly religion is not an issue for atheists in secular countries, therefore there is no reason to feel any intolerance toward it.

The baptised child will not be doing any further Catholic rituals, unless he chooses to as an adult and future children will not be baptised.

I have often worried about what will happen should I die in this country. Glasnevin Trust looks like the best place for burial as it is multi denominational. Surely there is a non denominational funeral home somewhere which holds non religious send offs? If not I will have to be sent back to New Zealand rather than have religious nonsense in my funeral service!

Kiwi in IE

woodoo wrote: »

If people are going to rubbish religion then they should be a bit more principled about their objection to it.

I have a better idea........ Ireland should join the Twenty First Century and the rest of the First World and become secular. Then there would be no reason for athiests and other religions to rubbish or object to the RCC!

iguana

My wedding was a civil ceremony in a castle in what was then our local park. (A place that claims to have been regularly visited by Henry VIII, a fabulously ominous place to start a marriage.) My son will remain unbaptised unless he makes a future adult decision to join a religion that requires baptism. And my husband and parents know to let the doctors and scientists make whatever use they can of my body in the event of my death and following that, to dispose of my remnants in the most ecological way possible.

Kiwi in IE

Interestingly here it seems that you are assumed Catholic unless you state otherwise. There is a need to be 'actively athiest'. I never gave religion or the lack of it a thought when I lived in NZ. The only time I needed to acknowledge the existence of religion outside
school classes, was to tick 'no religion' on the census form every few years. I have started calling myself an athiest only since moving here. I had never given supernatural beliefs enough thought to accurately self assess where I stood on the matter prior.

ahnowbrowncow

Three Seasons wrote: »

I did however have my daughter baptised for logistical reasons.

Broad

We got married under a tree in Australia, but if it had been very important to my partner to marry in church (they were a kind of vague, wooly christian) then I would not have had a problem. My partner also wanted our children baptised, so I said ok off you go! One child chose to get confirmed (they later decided they were atheist). The others chose not to get confirmed as they had decided that they did not believe in any god. And my partner's beliefs have sort of faded into nothing.

Both of my parents are atheists, and a gathering at the house is planned after their cremations, no funeral. I certainly won't have a church funeral.

I think the OP misses a point - some people who are atheist or agnostic do marry in church, simply because they don't want to upset other people, their partner or family. Most peoples' funerals are organised for them after they die, and funerals are really for those left behind so if family and friends are religious then a religious funeral is quite likely, I have never heard of an atheist requesting a religious funeral.

Peregrinus

woodoo wrote: »

I am genuinely interested in burial options and ceremonies in particular for those that have left the church.

As far as I know you can be buried in any cemetery in Ireland without a religious service, regardless of who owns the cemetery. I’ve never heard of anyone being turned away because they weren’t religious/were the “wrong” religion/didn’t have a religious funeral. Apart from Jewish cemeteries, which like you to be Jewish, they are mostly pretty inclusive.

It’s possible that there might be a problem if you wanted a churchyard burial rather than a cemetery burial, though these are pretty rare nowadays. If you are turned away, it’s likely to be because you don’t have a local connection, or more simply because the churchyard is closed, or is open only to relatives of people already buried there. For historical reasons most churchyard burials are in Church of Ireland churchyards, and you do not have to be CofI to be buried there.

As for not having a religious funeral service, all you have to do is (a) tell your nearest and dearest that you don’t want one and they are not to organise one, and (b) trust them to respect your wishes. If you don’t feel you can trust them, that’s an issue between you and them. Strictly speaking your executor has final control over the disposal of your remains, so make a will and appoint an executor who you can trust to respect your wishes, and to stand up against any pressure you think he may get from your family. (Make sure he knows what you want; by the time the will is read it will be too late.) But think carefully about whether you need to do this; when the time comes you’ll be beyond caring; it’s your family who will need looking after, and if a religious funeral really would help them deal with things, you might feel you don’t need to deny them that.

As to what you can do instead of a religious funeral, the options are still a bit limited. Your nearest and dearest can organise something non-religious themselves, and most undertakers can offer or arrange a non-religious venue. But it takes a bit of energy and imagination at a time when your shocked and grieving family may feel their resources of both are a bit low. The Humanist Association of Ireland does offer support in preparing and conducting non-religious funerals; you could check them out.

Solair

My granny had a non religious funeral a couple of years ago. It was absolutely no problem whatsoever.

There were some big photos of her as a young woman & in her 60s (she specifically asked for these as she wanted to stress she wasn't always in her late 80s and would prefer to be remembered in her prime !)

Her kids, sister and a few friends got up and spoke about her.

We played some music associated with her (mostly classical).

Then that was it. Curtains closed. Lots of tears but at least we sent her off in a bit of style.

We went out for a meal.

She wasn't religious and thought traditional funerals were over the top and a waste of money & environmentally damaging. She warned of impending hauntings if we put her in a hardwood coffin !

Whole thing worked well. One elderly neighbour asked "so was that an atheist mass." But, other than that it nobody thought it was strange at all or commented. They were more concerned with giving her a send off than what religious significance the ceremony had.

The only thing I would say is that if a family aren't up to planning all that stuff or public speaking, maybe talk to the humanist society. We've a few fairly professional talkers in the family and a couple of event manager types so it was all very straight forward but I could see why a lot of people (especially at a very traumatic time) would prefer to have it coordinated by a third party. That is where priests etc tend to be very useful. You've a template and a professional officiator of ceremonies.

The funeral director took care of all the practicalities though. They did an excellent job.

The one complaint I would have is that the hospice service was EXTREMELY religious. They did back off around my gran but to be honest, I didn't like how they did things.

For example someone died in the same room as her and there were curtains closed and prayers and stuff.

I think it really isn't something you'd necessarily want going on around you. They didn't wheel people out quickly enough in my opinion.

It was just creepy and very depressing even if their palliative care services were excellent and the facility was very architecturally pleasant.

There was a priest in full long robes wandering around giving people last rites too!

She asked me to keep him away as he looked like the *****ing grim reaper especially when you're on heavy painkillers.

Just thought they could have laid off that kind of stuff. Other than that the place was modern, cheery and the staff were fantastic ,

Tipsy McSwagger

Any atheist who gets their child baptized is definetely a hypocrite. You do realise that once baptized then they will remain a catholic for the rest of their lives whether they want to or not. A person should have the right to choose their own religion or no religion and not have it forced on them by their parents.

Obliq

Well, there's no sign of religion in any of my plans. No baptisms, no church weddings. Haven't decided on funeral plans for myself yet. My gran had a humanist ceremony and I found the setting was WAY too formal for my liking (can't remember where it was in Dublin - very grand building though...)

My fella wants no funeral at all. Just cremation and fire the ashes on his veg garden, which makes complete sense. If I'm still around for it apparently I have to hold everyone off having any sort of ceremony in his memory. I've managed to argue for at least an informal dinner/drinkies for his family and friends, but essentially if I'm to follow his wishes to the letter then nobody would know he was dead till they come looking for him! Awkward Never mind, might be out of my hands!!

Personally, I might make inheriting the house conditional on carting my ashes to all the places in the world I wanted to go and never did......or perhaps the compost pile would be more like me. But family and friends can knock themselves out with as much partying as they want. I won't be around to hear it

Bannasidhe

Solair wrote: »

My granny had a non religious funeral a couple of years ago. It was absolutely no problem whatsoever.

There were some big photos of her as a young woman & in her 60s (she specifically asked for these as she wanted to stress she wasn't always in her late 80s and would prefer to be remembered in her prime !)

Her kids, sister and a few friends got up and spoke about her.

We played some music associated with her (mostly classical).

Then that was it. Curtains closed. Lots of tears but at least we sent her off in a bit of style.

We went out for a meal.

She wasn't religious and thought traditional funerals were over the top and a waste of money & environmentally damaging. She warned of impending hauntings if we put her in a hardwood coffin !

Whole thing worked well. One elderly neighbour asked "so was that an atheist mass." But, other than that it nobody thought it was strange at all or commented. They were more concerned with giving her a send off than what religious significance the ceremony had.

The only thing I would say is that if a family aren't up to planning all that stuff or public speaking, maybe talk to the humanist society. We've a few fairly professional talkers in the family and a couple of event manager types so it was all very straight forward but I could see why a lot of people (especially at a very traumatic time) would prefer to have it coordinated by a third party. That is where priests etc tend to be very useful. You've a template and a professional officiator of ceremonies.

The funeral director took care of all the practicalities though. They did an excellent job.

The one complaint I would have is that the hospice service was EXTREMELY religious. They did back off around my gran but to be honest, I didn't like how they did things.

For example someone died in the same room as her and there were curtains closed and prayers and stuff.

I think it really isn't something you'd necessarily want going on around you. They didn't wheel people out quickly enough in my opinion.

It was just creepy and very depressing even if their palliative care services were excellent and the facility was very architecturally pleasant.

There was a priest in full long robes wandering around giving people last rites too!

She asked me to keep him away as he looked like the *****ing grim reaper especially when you're on heavy painkillers.

Just thought they could have laid off that kind of stuff. Other than that the place was modern, cheery and the staff were fantastic ,

I wish I met your Granny. She sounds like my kinda woman!

Mr. CooL ICE

When I die, I'd like my body to be chopped up and fed to pigs, and these pigs would be feasted on by friends and family. Marriage would preferably be registry office and preferably no baptism.

Catholicism is completely irrelevant to me, so if push came to shove, I'd go the catholic route for all of the above and wouldn't feel hypocritical for it. My family is still catholic so if I died tomorrow, the funeral would be for them and not me. Likewise, any if any future wife wanted a church wedding, I'd do it and and kids can be baptised if she prefers.

swampgas

I never go to mass, or otherwise voluntarily participate in any religious ceremony. Why would I want to?

I was married in a registry office, and would never baptise children (regardless of the schools issue). I have declined the privilege of being a god-parent numerous times, as I think it would be massively hypocritical of me to just play along, even if the parents don't care or are atheists themselves.

At masses which are part of funerals and weddings, I'll sit & stand politely, but won't kneel and won't pretend to pray. I don't join in prayers - say if someone says grace loudly before a meal, I don't join in. Ditto for prayers said before meetings (very rare though that may be). I'm not afraid to tell anyone who asks that I'm not religious. When asked for my religion in hospital have always said "none".

My funeral will be non-religious, and probably cremation.

And last but not least, I have always answered the Census honestly :-)

Brian Shanahan

woodoo wrote: »

We see a fair bit of abuse directed towards Catholics and religious people here on boards.

I'm sorry, but as an atheist I cannot do anything about religious infighting. It is not my responsibility.

audioslave

I like to think of myself as an agnostic atheist. I cannot prove their is no higher power, the same way no person on this earth can prove there is.
But I find an atheists choice of thinking is scrutinised more than any other as believing in some higher power is seen as "the norm".

Pherekydes

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

Any atheist who gets their child baptized is definetely a hypocrite. You do realise that once baptized then they will remain a catholic for the rest of their lives whether they want to or not. A person should have the right to choose their own religion or no religion and not have it forced on them by their parents.

My parents were catholic and had me baptized at 10 days, but I now consider myself a non-religious atheist. How does this tally with being permanently a catholic once baptized while also having the right to choose one's own religion?

Married in a registry office too, and while my kids are baptized, in order to fit in at school, they too are atheist, and any time gods are brought up in conversation I just mention the massacre of the innocents. That shuts them up pronto!

Regarding disposal after death, they have my permission to throw me in the brown bin or feed me to the dog, if they wish.

lazygal

Pherekydes wrote: »

Married in a registry office too, and while my kids are baptized, in order to fit in at school, they too are atheist, and any time gods are brought up in conversation I just mention the massacre of the innocents. That shuts them up pronto!

I still find it hypocritical to go along with a baptism for a child while fully acknowledging that you don't believe any of it, regardless of any excuses like schools, or familial pressure, or it 'not meaning anything'. It makes it that bit more difficult for people who do stick to their principles to be understood.
I think sending out the message that you baptised your children so they'd fit in at school very odd. So if they ask for the latest game, or designer gear, or 'insert other latest thing that 'everyone' has', what's your reasoning, to fit in you just comply?
Will your children partake of other sacraments to fit in at school?

Pherekydes

lazygal wrote: »

I still find it hypocritical to go along with a baptism for a child while fully acknowledging that you don't believe any of it, regardless of any excuses like schools, or familial pressure, or it 'not meaning anything'. It makes it that bit more difficult for people who do stick to their principles to be understood.
I think sending out the message that you baptised your children so they'd fit in at school very odd. So if they ask for the latest game, or designer gear, or 'insert other latest thing that 'everyone' has', what's your reasoning, to fit in you just comply?
Will your children partake of other sacraments to fit in at school?

My youngest is 13, so no longer any need to play along. Besides, I'm older than you and had many more years of brain-washing to overcome. :pac:

lazygal

Pherekydes wrote: »

My youngest is 13, so no longer any need to play along. Besides, I'm older than you and had many more years of brain-washing to overcome. :pac:

Did they do the sacraments of communion and confirmation so they'd fit in?

Pherekydes

lazygal wrote: »

Did they do the sacraments of communion and confirmation so they'd fit in?

Does it matter?

lazygal

Pherekydes wrote: »

Does it matter?

I'm curious as to how you agree with doing one sacrament to enable your children to fit in, can I presume you mean fit into the Irish Catholic school system? And if your children partook of further sacraments in school, with your consent, to ensure they continued to fit in.

krankykitty

lazygal wrote: »

I'm curious as to how you agree with doing one sacrament to enable your children to fit in, can I presume you mean fit into the Irish Catholic school system? And if your children partook of further sacraments in school, with your consent, to ensure they continued to fit in.

With the way the school system is, is in not more about "getting in" rather than "fitting in"? Personally it would kill me to baptise my child, but what do people do when the schools in their area have an exclusionist entry policy. I would myself rather fight the system than go along with a sham baptism, but it sucks that we have to do that.

lazygal

krankykitty wrote: »

With the way the school system is, is in not more about "getting in" rather than "fitting in"? Personally it would kill me to baptise my child, but what do people do when the schools in their area have an exclusionist entry policy. I would myself rather fight the system than go along with a sham baptism, but it sucks that we have to do that.

I'm wondering though, once you've gotten in why continue the charade and go along with communions/confirmations as so many do. The poster I quoted referred to fitting in, rather than getting in.