Fergal Quinn wants to scrap the min wage

Phoebas

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

reduction in overall wages might reduce these but a reduction in min wage will only push people over the poverty line.
Say you have 60 employees at min wage. Reduce their hourly rate by 1euro so 60 x 40hrs saves 2400euros a week. 60 employees in a company is not a massive amount of employees but its not small either. And I don't think 2400euros a week to a company which is capable of employing 60 people is that much of a saving per week.

Now is probably not the best time to decrease the minimum wage because people are already having to deal with increases in other taxes and new taxes and charges, but if you take that €2400 saving - its enough to hire an additional 5 or 6 people.
Not that it necessarily would go into employing more people, but when businesses have surpluses, they tend to put some of it into investment in growth.

Cody Pomeray

Phoebas wrote: »

Now is probably not the best time to decrease the minimum wage because people are already having to deal with increases in other taxes and new taxes and charges, but if you take that €2400 saving - its enough to hire an additional 5 or 6 people.

But would they?

Unit wage costs have already fallen, and unemployment has increased and remained fairly high.

It is not a case of a simple, direct relationship between the cost of labour and the unemployment rate. Reducing the minimum wage to €7.65 would require that each additional employee is bringing in some income greater than €7.65 per hour in turn. In the absence of any economic stimulus or greater activity in general, that notion is still going to be fanciful in many firms, some of whom are already maintaining a workforce at a loss.

UCDVet

I don't understand the concept of a minimum wage. I mean, seriously, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me....

Let's say I make baskets that I want to sell. Let's say the demand for my baskets is such that I average one sale per day @ 10 euro. Let's also say it takes me 4 hours to make a basket.

That means, for one hour of work, I'm producing 2.5 euro of 'value' (ignore material costs).

Without a minimum wage law - I could make baskets and sell them. I'd make 2.5 euro per hour.

With a minimum wage law - I couldn't sell them for 10 euro. I'd have to sell them for 34.60; only - at that price, I won't sell any. So, minimum wage laws mean, I either need to produce 8.65 euro per hour - or I'm unemployed....or I need to raise prices beyond whatever optimal pricing the market would dictate.

The idea that any person you select at random is able to produce something of value at a rate of 8 euro per hour is hard for me to believe. I frequently think of businesses I could start, things I could do, etc - and the truth is, there isn't a lot I can come up with that is worth 8 euro per hour, that I can do.

No Pants

What is it you do?

FTA69

UCDVet wrote: »

I don't understand the concept of a minimum wage. I mean, seriously, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me....

Let's say I make baskets that I want to sell. Let's say the demand for my baskets is such that I average one sale per day @ 10 euro. Let's also say it takes me 4 hours to make a basket.

That means, for one hour of work, I'm producing 2.5 euro of 'value' (ignore material costs).

Without a minimum wage law - I could make baskets and sell them. I'd make 2.5 euro per hour.

With a minimum wage law - I couldn't sell them for 10 euro. I'd have to sell them for 34.60; only - at that price, I won't sell any. So, minimum wage laws mean, I either need to produce 8.65 euro per hour - or I'm unemployed....or I need to raise prices beyond whatever optimal pricing the market would dictate.

The idea that any person you select at random is able to produce something of value at a rate of 8 euro per hour is hard for me to believe. I frequently think of businesses I could start, things I could do, etc - and the truth is, there isn't a lot I can come up with that is worth 8 euro per hour, that I can do.

You're analogy is complete sh*te as minimum wage doesn't apply to business owners. It isn't there for that. There is no "law" stating that you must pay yourself minimum wage if you're a director.

Geuze

UCDVet wrote: »

I don't understand the concept of a minimum wage. I mean, seriously, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me....

The idea that any person you select at random is able to produce something of value at a rate of 8 euro per hour is hard for me to believe. I frequently think of businesses I could start, things I could do, etc - and the truth is, there isn't a lot I can come up with that is worth 8 euro per hour, that I can do.

Note that the NMW only applies to employees, as a self-employed person making baskets, you are free to work for what you like.

Geuze

UCDVet wrote: »

I don't understand the concept of a minimum wage. I mean, seriously, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me....

Let's say I make baskets that I want to sell. Let's say the demand for my baskets is such that I average one sale per day @ 10 euro. Let's also say it takes me 4 hours to make a basket.

The idea that any person you select at random is able to produce something of value at a rate of 8 euro per hour is hard for me to believe. I frequently think of businesses I could start, things I could do, etc - and the truth is, there isn't a lot I can come up with that is worth 8 euro per hour, that I can do.

Note that average output per worker in Irl is 89,000.

So average output per worker per hour is maybe 47.50 per hour, based on a 48wk year and a 39hr week.

See here:

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/economy/2012/nie_2012.pdf

In this context, 8 euro per hour output is a hobby - not real employment.

Loads of people are producing output that sells for 50-100-150 per hour, that's quite common.

realitykeeper

Scrapping the minimum wage is an essential first step to economic recovery but it should be part of a package of other reforms. Along with the scrapping of the minimum wage, there should be very substantial cuts to public sector pay, the dole and V.A.T. The dole should be temporary - e..g 6 months, pending placed employment with a state sponsored private sector employer.
People on the minimum wage need hope. In other words they need to know that the economy will recover. The economy can only recover if it can compete. For the economy to compete, the minimum wage must be abolished - it was a stupid idea to begin with.

creedp

realitykeeper wrote: »

For the economy to compete, the minimum wage must be abolished - it was a stupid idea to begin with.

By this I presume you think Ireland is unusual if not unique in having a national minimum wage? Is this actually the case?

Presumably also when advocating reductions to the minimum wage, the dole and PS pay you would also support a reduction in the average industrial wage and private sector wages in general in order to really kick start the recovery and give all low paid workers some hope. Or are you only advocating cuts for people other that yourself?

In reality the nat mimimum wage has been frozen since 2007 and given that we are experiencing inflation the min wage is reducing in real terms each year unlike the siituation applying to private sector wages in general. Who knows maybe you are focusing on cutting the wrong category of private sector wages.

realitykeeper

creedp wrote: »

By this I presume you think Ireland is unusual if not unique in having a national minimum wage? Is this actually the case?

No it is not the case. Most countries in the euro zone and most states in the US have a minimum wage. China does not have a minimum wage, instead - China competes which is why China is growing prosperous while the EU and US have struggled with an economic crisis for the last five years. Eventually, when the EU and US fail to ward off the depression that was supposed to happen in 2008 - that depression will come with a vengeance because the splurge of borrowing and stimulus will make the inevitable many times worse than it would have been had we simply taken our medicine in `08.

Mr. teddywinkles

realitykeeper wrote: »

No it is not the case. Most countries in the euro zone and most states in the US have a minimum wage. China does not have a minimum wage, instead - China competes which is why China is growing prosperous while the EU and US have struggled with an economic crisis for the last five years. Eventually, when the EU and US fail to ward off the depression that was supposed to happen in 2008 - that depression will come with a vengeance because the splurge of borrowing and stimulus will make the inevitable many times worse than it would have been had we simply taken our medicine in `08.

So let me get this right everyone on min wage cannot justify their wages at the end of their working week and are not entitled to have it but anyone working for above the min wage deserve every penny. Is that it?

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

No it is not the case. Most countries in the euro zone and most states in the US have a minimum wage. China does not have a minimum wage, instead - China competes which is why China is growing prosperous while the EU and US have struggled with an economic crisis for the last five years. Eventually, when the EU and US fail to ward off the depression that was supposed to happen in 2008 - that depression will come with a vengeance because the splurge of borrowing and stimulus will make the inevitable many times worse than it would have been had we simply taken our medicine in `08.

China may not have a minimum wage, but neither does it have functioning system in place to ensure even basic worker protection, environmental standards, health standards, planning controls and product safety.

Chinese prosperity and the rising middle class are also only confined to the cities and urban areas.

The minimum wage is not much and I think getting rid of or reducing it would be retrograde step - for a start it immediately sends out the signal that work is not that important.

OMD

realitykeeper wrote: »

No it is not the case. Most countries in the euro zone and most states in the US have a minimum wage. China does not have a minimum wage, instead - China competes which is why China is growing prosperous while the EU and US have struggled with an economic crisis for the last five years. Eventually, when the EU and US fail to ward off the depression that was supposed to happen in 2008 - that depression will come with a vengeance because the splurge of borrowing and stimulus will make the inevitable many times worse than it would have been had we simply taken our medicine in `08.

Yes. Those Chinese workers are loaded all right. Hopefully in Ireland we can one day achieve the standard of living the Chinese enjoy.

Mr. teddywinkles

OMD wrote: »

Yes. Those Chinese workers are loaded all right. Hopefully in Ireland we can one day achieve the standard of living the Chinese enjoy.

I suggest to people on here to go read about the lives of of the average worker in china before spouting on about wages here.
Its economy might be booming at the moment but at cost of its own workforce. Its such a silly comparison.

Frank Lee Midere

realitykeeper wrote: »

No it is not the case. Most countries in the euro zone and most states in the US have a minimum wage. China does not have a minimum wage, instead - China competes which is why China is growing prosperous while the EU and US have struggled with an economic crisis for the last five years. Eventually, when the EU and US fail to ward off the depression that was supposed to happen in 2008 - that depression will come with a vengeance because the splurge of borrowing and stimulus will make the inevitable many times worse than it would have been had we simply taken our medicine in `08.

Anybody on minimum wage is probably not working in Ireland's export sector, but merely in the local economy, so competiveness is not an issue. In terms of the extra costs to consumers in Ireland, it is more often than not rentier costs which push up prices - the cost of rent. Reducing rents on Grafton street - and similar - and increasing wages would boost the economy, and reduce prices for consumers.

Jawgap

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

I suggest to people on here to go read about the lives of of the average worker in china before spouting on about wages here.
Its economy might be booming at the momoment but at cost of its own workforce. Its such a silly comparison.

Not sure if you missed the sarcasm or not..........

Mr. teddywinkles

Jawgap wrote: »

Not sure if you missed the sarcasm or not..........

no I did not just reinforcing his point.

Farmer Pudsey

realitykeeper wrote: »

No it is not the case. Most countries in the euro zone and most states in the US have a minimum wage. China does not have a minimum wage, instead - China competes which is why China is growing prosperous while the EU and US have struggled with an economic crisis for the last five years. Eventually, when the EU and US fail to ward off the depression that was supposed to happen in 2008 - that depression will come with a vengeance because the splurge of borrowing and stimulus will make the inevitable many times worse than it would have been had we simply taken our medicine in `08.

Is China growing prosperous for certain sections it is just like that other bastion of free enterprise and democracy Mother Russia. It is not exactly going untroubled through this world recession. It constantly manipulates it currency and it is going through it natural resources at a tremendous rate. It also will not export some of these resources which it has exclusive access to.

It is manipulates it workforce and has working conditions akin to late 1800's GB and the US rather than a modern economy. It is hard to guess how long this will continue for or as it population gets more Educated will they strive for western freedoms of speech, work and lifestyle.

AllthingsCP

Cienciano wrote: »

If you want to scrap the minimum wage, you have to reduce the dole and benefits. No one will take a job when state benefits are worth more.

You would also have to lower rents, tax's charges, Food, basically the standard of life.

realitykeeper

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

So let me get this right everyone on min wage cannot justify their wages at the end of their working week and are not entitled to have it but anyone working for above the min wage deserve every penny. Is that it?

No that is not it. Those on a minimum wage are entitled to whatever the market dictates - which may be the same as the minimum wage or more probably, something less. That said, I would concede there are plenty of high paid public sector employees whose salaries are so large that it amounts to theft. Nobody who works for the state should be paid a large salary - that is stealing.

creedp

realitykeeper wrote: »

No that is not it. Those on a minimum wage are entitled to whatever the market dictates - which may be the same as the minimum wage or more probably, something less. That said, I would concede there are plenty of high paid public sector employees whose salaries are so large that it amounts to theft. Nobody who works for the state should be paid a large salary - that is stealing.

Right so the proposal is to get rid of the minimum wage to reduce pay for the lowest paid private sector employees while protecting the pay of well paid private sector employees. If there was a referendum I wonder would it be carried?

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

No that is not it. Those on a minimum wage are entitled to whatever the market dictates - which may be the same as the minimum wage or more probably, something less. That said, I would concede there are plenty of high paid public sector employees whose salaries are so large that it amounts to theft. Nobody who works for the state should be paid a large salary - that is stealing.

Unfortunately if you want certain professions to be part of the PS you have to pay the going rate - and quite frankly there are definitely certain professions in the PS I want to be paid above the going rate to make sure the best are employed there......


.......if you (or a loved one) are stretched out in A&E you want the best doctors and nurses, not the best they could get for the money.

I agree, however, that a significant group of managers (especially at senior level) are either overpaid or under employed.

jman0war

Jawgap wrote: »

.......if you (or a loved one) are stretched out in A&E you want the best doctors and nurses, not the best they could get for the money.

I agree, however, that a significant group of managers (especially at senior level) are either overpaid or under employed.

If they really are the best, then money is probably not their primary motivator.

Jawgap

jman0war wrote: »

If they really are the best, then money is probably not their primary motivator.

Probably not - but neither are they interested in living in penury.

creedp

jman0war wrote: »

If they really are the best, then money is probably not their primary motivator.

Does this principle apply only to the medical profession or can it be generalised to all workers in all sectors?

realitykeeper

creedp wrote: »

Right so the proposal is to get rid of the minimum wage to reduce pay for the lowest paid private sector employees while protecting the pay of well paid private sector employees. If there was a referendum I wonder would it be carried?

Market forces dictate pay in the private sector. Protection only happens in the public sector and also where there is a minimum wage. Note that both of these groups are protected by the state which in turn is bankrupt. That is what you get when you have an incompetent government. As for the referendum - perhaps it would pass or perhaps not. The markets would react accordingly and the people would benefit or suffer depending on the wisdom of their decision.
My own view is that democracy works really well where you have a mentally mature populace who are frugal, hard working and austere. Democracy is a disaster in countries with mentally immature populations which are addicted to alcohol, drugs, gambling, borrowed money etc. Severe hardship is the cure for the brat-like behavior of the Irish.

realitykeeper

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Is China growing prosperous for certain sections it is just like that other bastion of free enterprise and democracy Mother Russia. It is not exactly going untroubled through this world recession. It constantly manipulates it currency and it is going through it natural resources at a tremendous rate. It also will not export some of these resources which it has exclusive access to.

It is manipulates it workforce and has working conditions akin to late 1800's GB and the US rather than a modern economy. It is hard to guess how long this will continue for or as it population gets more Educated will they strive for western freedoms of speech, work and lifestyle.

China is entitled to manipulate its currency, after all - it is it`s currency. China also has the right to keep it`s resources for itself, after all - it`s resources are it`s resources.

You seem to have issues with China "manipulating" things. I`m going to go out on a limb here and speculate that you are not the most gracious of losers. China is simply looking after it`s own interests as it is entitled to do.

Russia has its faults but I think they were right in allowing Edward Snowdon to stay. How things have changed since the cold war.

realitykeeper

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Reducing rents on Grafton street - and similar - and increasing wages would boost the economy, and reduce prices for consumers.

A better idea would be to allow the free market to determine the cost of labour, rent and everything else. Interference in the free market distorts reality and undermines competition. The single most important thing the government can do is restore competition by desisting from interfering in everything. It would be no harm if they were to flog every single state asset including Leinster House to pay the national debt. If necessary they could rent some of these assets back from the private sector.

alastair

realitykeeper wrote: »

A better idea would be to allow the free market to determine the cost of labour, rent and everything else. Interference in the free market distorts reality and undermines competition. The single most important thing the government can do is restore competition by desisting from interfering in everything.

Because lack of oversight has worked out so well before.


Oh wait...

Farmer Pudsey

realitykeeper wrote: »

China is entitled to manipulate its currency, after all - it is it`s currency. China also has the right to keep it`s resources for itself, after all - it`s resources are it`s resources.

You seem to have issues with China "manipulating" things. I`m going to go out on a limb here and speculate that you are not the most gracious of losers. China is simply looking after it`s own interests as it is entitled to do.

Russia has its faults but I think they were right in allowing Edward Snowdon to stay. How things have changed since the cold war.

Please elaborate what you mean I do not understand maybe I am missing something.