Fergal Quinn wants to scrap the min wage

creedp

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

You get large employers paying low and high wages however I was just showing the cost to an private sector employer of paying around the average industrial wage. This idea that all employers have a choice in the matter is a bit silly. I know a good few small sole traders and I think that they would be no worse off if they employed nobody and just took enough work for themselves.

Why would an employer take on an employee if they didn't need to? If they could do the work themselves then I would expect them to do so. Otherwise they would be either overcharging their customers or underpaying their employee.

In any case Im not sure what the cost of the av. industrial wage has to do with removing/reducing the minimum wage. If you reduce the minimum wage then you will have to reduce social welfare otherwise its pointless as social welfare will exceed the wage and at the very minimum people will qualify for a FIS top-up, so instead of the employer paying a working wage, they will now pay a lower wage and the taxpayer pick up the slack - pointless.

Treehousetim

Cienciano wrote: »

If you want to scrap the minimum wage, you have to reduce the dole and benefits. No one will take a job when state benefits are worth more.

I think this is the most relevant point made in this thread. Just wondering WHEN the government are going to address this?

goose2005

Treehousetim wrote: »

I think this is the most relevant point made in this thread. Just wondering WHEN the government are going to address this?

Maybe when we don't live in a country where there are 26 unemployed for every 1 new job?

Lockstep

0ph0rce0 wrote: »

If you really think its ok for someone to work a full weeks work for well below minimum wage (and i'm not talking, intern or any job you gain from) then you truly are an asshole

Lay off the personal abuse

Farmer Pudsey

creedp wrote: »

Why would an employer take on an employee if they didn't need to? If they could do the work themselves then I would expect them to do so. Otherwise they would be either overcharging their customers or underpaying their employee.

In any case Im not sure what the cost of the av. industrial wage has to do with removing/reducing the minimum wage. If you reduce the minimum wage then you will have to reduce social welfare otherwise its pointless as social welfare will exceed the wage and at the very minimum people will qualify for a FIS top-up, so instead of the employer paying a working wage, they will now pay a lower wage and the taxpayer pick up the slack - pointless.

It is not that they do not need the employee. It is that they fail to do a cost benefit analysis. I have seen small business people take on extra work and after paying staff and costs they make little or nothing for themselves.

I have never advocated reducing the minimum wage if you check through my post. If anything I have pointed with the present unemployment benefit system it would be meaningless. However a some self employed work for less than the minimum wage especially when you look at how little holidays they take.

Mr. teddywinkles

Treehousetim wrote: »

I think this is the most relevant point made in this thread. Just wondering WHEN the government are going to address this?

They'll address it when the cost of living drops

Mr. teddywinkles

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Just some personal experience but in all the jobs I have had I have found that the bigger the Co I worked for, the higher they paid. It was the small ones were the ones who always tried to screw me over.

True with me too

wolfpawnat

I love how those on huge salaries think those barely able to get by should be cut and those who do not have to live on it seem to agree with them :rolleyes: it is very easy to say cut others when it means nothing to you.

The cost of food and services such as electricity and gas/oil are increasing constantly, you see it all the time, but those in big business want it cut. Every euro helps at that minimum wage level. Lets start with those a-holes in Leinster house and their expenses before we go after those who work the jobs beneath so many giving out about their wages shall we?

Xenophile

I agree with Fergal Quinn, if a 21 year old wants to work for €8.50. per hour let she/he have the freedom to do so!

belcampprisoner

if they paid 4 euros each they could pay 2 people,so it would cut unemployment in half

Xenophile

belcampprisoner wrote: »

if they paid 4 euros each they could pay 2 people,so it would cut unemployment in half

Not realistic!

Mr. teddywinkles

creedp wrote: »

Why would an employer take on an employee if they didn't need to? If they could do the work themselves then I would expect them to do so. Otherwise they would be either overcharging their customers or underpaying their employee.

In any case Im not sure what the cost of the av. industrial wage has to do with removing/reducing the minimum wage. If you reduce the minimum wage then you will have to reduce social welfare otherwise its pointless as social welfare will exceed the wage and at the very minimum people will qualify for a FIS top-up, so instead of the employer paying a working wage, they will now pay a lower wage and the taxpayer pick up the slack - pointless.

If you reduce the min wage and social benefits, then the cost of living in this wonderful country has to be reduced simple as.

Phoebas

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

If you reduce the min wage and social benefits, then the cost of living in this wonderful country has to be reduced simple as.

Reducing the minimum wage would result in a reduction in the cost of living.

HansHolzel

Quinn is yet another reason to apply the death penalty to the Seanad.

MagicBusDriver1

Phoebas wrote: »

Reducing the minimum wage would result in a reduction in the cost of living.

No, it would simply transfer wealth from the workers to the owners. You can see it in the US where minimum wages are often low. Minimun wage employees live in proverty because the cost of living especially rent do not reflect the low wages of the workers. The cost of living is distorted by the wealth of a few.

Why would you try to make a society more unequal when you consider the vast problems with crime and standard of living that you can see in unequal societies like the US?

wolfpawnat

I find the idea that everything else will magically come down if the min wage and SW does fascinating. It cannot happen, and the reasons are simple, People on SW and min wage tend to rent rather than own homes. Rents usually pay off the LL's mortgages, even if the whole of Ireland took say a 20% cut, everything from the SW to the CEO's, the mortgages will not come down. Electricity, Gas and Oil prices are going up, up, up, they won't go down. Oil and gas are not ever going to get cheaper. Products are getting more expensive to buy, sure milk just went 10c a litre. Farmers are getting so little for produce, it would be them and not Dunnes and Tesco's taking the hit. It's not going to work and to think so is head in the cloud economics. It will only divide society more, and that will not end well for anyone!

Phoebas

MagicBusDriver1 wrote: »

No, it would simply transfer wealth from the workers to the owners. You can see it in the US where minimum wages are often low. Minimun wage employees live in proverty because the cost of living especially rent do not reflect the low wages of the workers. The cost of living is distorted by the wealth of a few.

A very simplistic analysis where the bosses just pocket the savings tbh.
In reality, a cut in the minimum wage causes downward pressure on wages all the way up the chain. This results in lower costs to a whole swathe of business and contributes to a lower cost of living overall.
Obviously the benefits don't necessarily fully compensate those actually on or near the minimum wage.

MagicBusDriver1 wrote: »

Why would you try to make a society more unequal when you consider the vast problems with crime and standard of living that you can see in unequal societies like the US?

I'm not proposing a cut in the minimum wage. I'm just explaining one of its effects, but a slow graduated reduction to bring us into line with other European countries need not result in 'vast problems with crime'.

0ph0rce0

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I find the idea that everything else will magically come down if the min wage and SW does fascinating. It cannot happen, and the reasons are simple, People on SW and min wage tend to rent rather than own homes. Rents usually pay off the LL's mortgages, even if the whole of Ireland took say a 20% cut, everything from the SW to the CEO's, the mortgages will not come down. Electricity, Gas and Oil prices are going up, up, up, they won't go down. Oil and gas are not ever going to get cheaper. Products are getting more expensive to buy, sure milk just went 10c a litre. Farmers are getting so little for produce, it would be them and not Dunnes and Tesco's taking the hit. It's not going to work and to think so is head in the cloud economics. It will only divide society more, and that will not end well for anyone!

I agree with this and to think the cost of living would go down is nonsense.

People don't give a **** about me or you or how much you earn, They know we need (well most of us) electricity, fuel, clothes, food, shelter etc... to survive and they will always charge as much as they can. Why???

Because no matter how much the essentials cost, most of us have no choice but to pay their prices, and because we do, it will always rise.

Changing the minimum wage or lowering social welfare won't change a thing except line the pockets even more for the greedy corporate ***** who wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire.

SpaceTime

woodoo wrote: »

I won't be setting foot in his shop again with that attitude.

You mean Musgraves' shop!
SuperQuinn, SuperValu and Centra are all sister brands now.

Continue to drive wages down and everyone will be shopping in Lidl and Aldi. DISASTROUS for SuperQuinn

el dude

Phoebas wrote: »

Reducing the minimum wage would result in a reduction in the cost of living.

How utterly wilfully naive, did you type that with a straight face?

Phoebas

el dude wrote: »

How utterly wilfully naive, did you type that with a straight face?

Is that going to be your one and only contribution to this thread?

Farmer Pudsey

A lot of posters consider Ireland expensive. We are for utilities, phone, electricity etc however we are not yet charged for water. Car and travel costs are expensive.

Recently while in France I was in a few Supermarkets and I would consider there prices as expensive if not more expensive than Ireland for general foodstuffs, would not be a good judge of other household goods. In the UK and Ireland we have been sheltered from food inflation to some extent however this is not sustain able down the line. I would no longer with internet shopping etc consider us completely out of line with other countries considering the prices I saw in France.
Ten years ago we were way more expensive and I noticed a considerable difference between supermarket prices however I think the difference in prices has been closed in the last few years.

dark crystal

Phoebas wrote: »

Reducing the minimum wage would result in a reduction in the cost of living.

Can you give an example of where this has happened please?

I'd love to see how reducing the wages of the lowest paid in society in turn led to a decrease in the cost of clothing, groceries, electricity, fuel, VAT, rent and childcare costs.

Phoebas

dark crystal wrote: »

Can you give an example of where this has happened please?

There is a fair bit of evidence linking minimum wage to prices.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1475-5890.2010.00108.x/abstract

However, over the longer term, prices in several minimum-wage sectors – notably, take-away food, canteen meals, hotel services and domestic services – do appear to have risen significantly faster than prices in non-minimum-wage sectors.
These effects were particularly significant in the four years immediately after the introduction of the minimum wage

dark crystal wrote: »

I'd love to see how reducing the wages of the lowest paid in society in turn led to a decrease in the cost of clothing, groceries, electricity, fuel, VAT, rent and childcare costs.

Who made all those claims?

woodoo

Phoebas wrote: »

A very simplistic analysis where the bosses just pocket the savings tbh.
In reality, a cut in the minimum wage causes downward pressure on wages all the way up the chain. This results in lower costs to a whole swathe of business and contributes to a lower cost of living overall.
Obviously the benefits don't necessarily fully compensate those actually on or near the minimum wage'.

Why doesn't it work well in america then.

dark crystal

Phoebas wrote: »

Who made all those claims?

You did:

Phoebas wrote: »

Reducing the minimum wage would result in a reduction in the cost of living.

The cost of living includes rent, fuel, electricity, groceries, clothing, childcare etc.

So I asked you to show where this has happened. Funnily enough, whenever anyone makes this claim, they are unable to back it up with any practical or working examples.

wolfpawnat

dark crystal wrote: »

Funnily enough, whenever anyone makes this claim, they are unable to back it up with any practical or working examples.

*whispers* because they cannot and do not exist.

Phoebas

dark crystal wrote: »

You did:



The cost of living includes rent, fuel, electricity, groceries, clothing, childcare etc.

So I asked you to show where this has happened. Funnily enough, whenever anyone makes this claim, they are unable to back it up with any practical or working examples.

The cost of living measured here by the HICP includes the prices of over 600 different goods and services. If a reduction in the minimum wage leads to a reduction in any of them then we have a reduction in the cost of living.

I've linked you to one bit of research linking the minimum wage to prices and while there is plenty of dispute about how much the minimum wage impacts on prices and in what circumstances, I think its pretty easy for anyone to join the dots between a minimum wage reduction to lower labour costs to downward pressure on prices.

Mr. teddywinkles

Phoebas wrote: »

The cost of living measured here by the HICP includes the prices of over 600 different goods and services. If a reduction in the minimum wage leads to a reduction in any of them then we have a reduction in the cost of living.

I've linked you to one bit of research linking the minimum wage to prices and while there is plenty of dispute about how much the minimum wage impacts on prices and in what circumstances, I think its pretty easy for anyone to join the dots between a minimum wage reduction to lower labour costs to downward pressure on prices.

reduction in overall wages might reduce these but a reduction in min wage will only push people over the poverty line.
Say you have 60 employees at min wage. Reduce their hourly rate by 1euro so 60 x 40hrs saves 2400euros a week. 60 employees in a company is not a massive amount of employees but its not small either. And I don't think 2400euros a week to a company which is capable of employing 60 people is that much of a saving per week.

maninasia

It's more important to get people off social welfare and working than reducing minimum wage. At the same time, the minimum wage should not be set at a level which discourages hiring.