Fergal Quinn wants to scrap the min wage

Barracuda1

http://www.independent.ie/business/small-business/scrap-the-minimum-wage-says-superquinn-founder-29126513.html

How about scrapping massive bonuses and salaries for company directors. Many of these directors don't spend their wages into the economy unlike the ordinary and costs more jobs.

But without a national minimum wage barrier, pay can reportedly go well below €1 per hour, especially in the former communist eastern states.

Sure we didn't even have min wage here til 2000.
It's also already perfectly legal to work for less than min wage if you have less than two years' work experience or are under 18.

Studies have shown that having a min wage does actually have a negative impact on employment.
http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/negative-effects-minimum-wage-laws

While the aim is to help workers, decades of economic research show that minimum wages usually end up harming workers and the broader economy. Minimum wages particularly stifle job opportunities for low-skill workers, youth, and minorities, which are the groups that policymakers are often trying to help with these policies.

http://www.downsizinggovernment.org/labor/negative-effects-minimum-wage-laws

As for spending - well, cato has an article about that also
http://www.cato.org/blog/consumer-spending-myth

Journalists talk endlessly these days about the need for more consumer spending to revive the economy, and for government programs to juice consumer spending.

Production, not consumption, is the source of wealth. If we want a healthy economy, we need to create the conditions under which producers can get on with the process of creating wealth for others to consume, and under which households and firms can engage in thesaving necessary to finance that production….

Whatever about scrapping it altogether, I think all 3 bands of it could at least do with being lowered.



I just found an interesting report from when they were considering introducing min wage in Ireland, actually...

http://www.djei.ie/publications/employment/1999/nationalminimumwagereport/appenb.htm

To put it in context, the most recent medium-term forecasts of employment growth with the ESRI's macromodel, in the absence of the minimum wage, include a growth in employment of 18.9% between 2000 and 2010. The introduction of the minimum wage is expected to reduce the growth in employment over the period 2000-2010 from 18.9% to 18%. (The projected fall in employment lies within the range 9,500 to 17,400 when different assumptions on spillover are used).
This decline is driven in equal measure by two separate effects:
a decline in the demand for low-wage labour due to the direct impact of the introduction of the minimum wage. Almost all of this decline occurs in industrial sectors.
a decline in the demand for higher-wage labour due to the indirect impact of the minimum wage on inflation, increasing wage demands and reducing competitiveness. The cumulative long-run impact on average wages is 2.85% and on consumer prices is 1.4%. This implies an increase in the real wage of approximately 1.4% which represents a significant deterioration in competitiveness. This decline impacts on the demand for labour in both industrial and services sectors.
Overall approximately 84% of the projected total fall in employment occurs in the industrial sectors, including building and construction.
Unemployment is projected to increase by 8,860,

It looks like an introduction of the min wage was expected to cause a decline in employment particularly in industrial/building/construction, which would tie in with the USA- based reports above.

Scortho

Barracuda1 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/small-business/scrap-the-minimum-wage-says-superquinn-founder-29126513.html

How about scrapping massive bonuses and salaries for company directors. Many of these directors don't spend their wages into the economy unlike the ordinary and costs more jobs.

So a person who sets up a company and runs it successfully shouldn't be able to earn a salary in line with that or a dividend for taking the risk?
Bye bye entrepreneurship, bye bye job creation and bye bye economic growth and investment.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=ca8Z__o52sk&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dca8Z__o52sk

http://dqydj.net/the-minimum-wage-mistake/

http://m.europe.wsj.com/articles/a/SB124476823767508619?mg=reno64-wsj

Barracuda1

Scortho wrote: »

So a person who sets up a company and runs it successfully shouldn't be able to earn a salary in line with that or a dividend for taking the risk?
Bye bye entrepreneurship, bye bye job creation and bye bye economic growth and investment.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=ca8Z__o52sk&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dca8Z__o52sk

http://dqydj.net/the-minimum-wage-mistake/

http://m.europe.wsj.com/articles/a/SB124476823767508619?mg=reno64-wsj

Its actually the same people who in this time are bringing home more money in a recessions in their salaries and the ordinary paye/prsi is taking home less. I am not against capatilism but some CEO taking home >5m pounds per annum as I seen on a programme on the BBC on night. I can't think of the name of the Lord who wanted some CEO to take paycuts. IMO when you set no min wage you also set no min safety standards and quality of life for workers

monkeypants

Henry Ford wanted every worker to be able buy one of his automobiles. Bill Cullen wanted people to work for free and his car dealership is now gone.

Cienciano

If you want to scrap the minimum wage, you have to reduce the dole and benefits. No one will take a job when state benefits are worth more.

RichardAnd

I doubt Quinn would say such a thing if he were earning a mere 8.65 an hour. Why not introduce a national maximum wage? Mr Quinn can spear head this idea because clearly he is open to ideas of curbing wage bills ...

On a more serious note, this demonstrates what a very thin veneer of "national interest" statements doesn't really hird. Quinn would love to have no minimum wage so that he, and those like him, would be in a position to hire desperate people for ultra cheap labor. Allow me to condense everything he said in that article into one simple little sentence.

I want others to have less so that I can have more ...

In other words, he only wants policies enacted whereby he stands to make a personal gain, screw everyone else. This is just like the vast, vast majority of humanity and it is the reason why this species is probably doomed to destroy itself.

monkeypants

Is Jobbridge not giving these people enough cheap labour?

Wicklowrider

So, the mechanic cuts his helpers wages. The lad decides he cannot afford to have his usual haircut at the barbers. The barber is wondering why his customer numbers are down and holds off paying the deposit on his holiday. The travel agent staff are getting the jitters because their sales targets are down and decide to forgo having that small extension or the painting done. The painter decides while he is doing nothing he can't afford to get the car serviced and will save the €220 by doing it himself ... until these small employers cannot afford ANY wage and the numbers are added to the dole queue as the restaurants shut and the newsagent goes out of business and people share cars instead of taking a taxi........

woodoo

I won't be setting foot in his shop again with that attitude.

Phoebas

woodoo wrote: »

I won't be setting foot in his shop again with that attitude.

It hasn't been his for a long time now.

Head The Wall

woodoo wrote: »

I won't be setting foot in his shop again with that attitude.

When you say "his shop" do you mean the ones he sold in 2005.

Barracuda1

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/140-bailedout-bank-executives-claiming-100000plus-pensions-29135093.html

This is where reduction begin.On a seperate note every TD that on a pension should be assessed on what they did for their country and decide whether they should continue ro recieve the pension or put on the state pension. I read that the retired members of parliment in greece are getting 500eur per week. Its the same currency give it to our retired TD. I like thousands have to make ends meet on the same money

RayM

Cienciano wrote: »

If you want to scrap the minimum wage, you have to reduce the dole and benefits. No one will take a job when state benefits are worth more.

The sort of people who want to scrap the minimum wage are invariably the very same types who believe that people on the dole are living lives of luxury. Feargal Quinn, for instance, has said that social welfare recipients should have their internet usage monitored using "counter terrorism software" just to make sure that they're not buying cars and holidays.

Eoin247

I don't know about scrapping it but it certainly should be lowered.

Same goes for the dole, I've heard about people being able to save up their dole to move country.

KyussBishop

bluewolf wrote: »

Studies have shown that having a min wage does actually have a negative impact on employment.
http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/negative-effects-minimum-wage-laws

http://www.downsizinggovernment.org/labor/negative-effects-minimum-wage-laws

As for spending - well, cato has an article about that also
http://www.cato.org/blog/consumer-spending-myth

A study backed by Koch-founded/run Cato, among others from Cato-backed/funded institutes, has as much credibility as the Koch brothers themselves; that's like bringing out a study from the tobacco industry, to support the argument that smoking is good for you.

Here is a good summary of the current state of study regarding the effects of the minimum wage:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage#Empirical_studies

Still highly contested, with studies showing no effect on employment, and studies showing a clear publication bias in favour of reports critical of minimum wage.

bluewolf wrote: »

Whatever about scrapping it altogether, I think all 3 bands of it could at least do with being lowered.



I just found an interesting report from when they were considering introducing min wage in Ireland, actually...

http://www.djei.ie/publications/employment/1999/nationalminimumwagereport/appenb.htm

It looks like an introduction of the min wage was expected to cause a decline in employment particularly in industrial/building/construction, which would tie in with the USA- based reports above.

Your using a report from 1999, about expectations, instead of showing what actually happened?

After minimum wage, we had the lowest unemployment rate in decades:



One notable thing about arguments on the minimum wage, is that the people that argue against it try to use arguments based on times of economic recession, as a face for the ideological reasons for supporting its abolishment; what are their arguments, for good economic times, when unemployment is not so high?

Trying to answer that, usually exposes the core ideological roots/reasoning, behind wanting to end the minimum wage.

Barracuda1

Eoin247 wrote: »

I don't know about scrapping it but it certainly should be lowered.

Same goes for the dole, I've heard about people being able to save up their dole to move country.

The cost of living would need to be lowered first. The demographic of our cities and towns does not allow for people to live on low wages. There would need to be better public transport in urban areas to do so. You could have the same standard of living on 100 eur less a week if you didn't need a car but unfortunatly you do. Planning laws didn't build to allow the people need a car less. A decent apartment complex that would allow families to live in and a transport service fit for 21st Ireland. I myself would take a second job or work from home and not take children allowance if I could but when welfare is better than taking a seond job who is going to work

RichardAnd

RayM wrote: »

The sort of people who want to scrap the minimum wage are invariably the very same types who believe that people on the dole are living lives of luxury. Feargal Quinn, for instance, has said that social welfare recipients should have their internet usage monitored using "counter terrorism software" just to make sure that they're not buying cars and holidays.

Those people are of a mind set that they personally will never fall under the wing of the policies that they suggest should be brought into effect. I would imagine that they would change their tune if they were to find themselves on the dole or in need of a job. Capitalism is great, so long as it works for you.

Eoin247 wrote: »

I don't know about scrapping it but it certainly should be lowered.

Same goes for the dole, I've heard about people being able to save up their dole to move country.

Indeed, better that they remain here in dudgeon and despondency. After all, there are many magnanimous souls such as Mr Quinn who would only be too happy to take them on for an "exciting opportunity" via the Jobsbridge scheme or better yet, a position with remuneration free from the shackles of minimum wage regulations.

KyussBishop

KyussBishop wrote: »

Your using a report from 1999, about expectations, instead of showing what actually happened?

I'm using a report that indicated that even Irish groups did not think the introduction of a min wage would be a good thing, for the same reasons.

After minimum wage, we had the lowest unemployment rate in decades:

My report dealt with unemployment as directly affected by min wage. You're looking at unemployment overall, with a number of factors (like a property bubble?). You need to pick out what part of those levels were affected by min wage, positively or negatively; otherwise the two are not comparable. Did unemployment drop despite the min wage? Because of it? No effect?
You might also notice that the report said the rate of unemployment dropping would be slowed after introducing it - not that it would stop altogether. Showing that it didn't stop altogether... has no bearing on it.

One notable thing about arguments on the minimum wage, is that the people that argue against it try to use arguments based on times of economic recession, as a face for the ideological reasons for supporting its abolishment; what are their arguments, for good economic times, when unemployment is not so high?

It seems quite obvious that when we have an unemployment problem, we should look at the causes and solutions

Barracuda1

One other point I'd like to make is. The min wage is attractive to foreign nationals who seems in majority a hard working people and if it was lowered they would not be interesed in coming here to work and the economy would suffer for it. There are people who would not work if you gave them 86.50 eur an hour(min wage X 10) but there are those who think it viable to travel and work for it and keep coming if you do

jippo nolan

Barracuda1 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/small-business/scrap-the-minimum-wage-says-superquinn-founder-29126513.html

How about scrapping massive bonuses and salaries for company directors. Many of these directors don't spend their wages into the economy unlike the ordinary and costs more jobs.

How about scrapping fergal quinn?

flutered

Eoin247 wrote: »

Same goes for the dole, I've heard about people being able to save up their dole to move country.

so what did they eat and drink while they were saving their dole.

Barracuda1

flutered wrote: »

so what did they eat and drink while they were saving their dole.

If you were on the dole and wanted out of Ireland you would live on a paultry menu for a few months to get the money together.

KyussBishop

bluewolf wrote: »

My report dealt with unemployment as directly affected by min wage. You're looking at unemployment overall, with a number of factors (like a property bubble?). You need to pick out what part of those levels were affected by min wage, positively or negatively; otherwise the two are not comparable. Did unemployment drop despite the min wage? Because of it? No effect?

Unemployment leveled out at what economists generally would mark as a pretty good/low level of unemployment, between 4-5%; you don't get a whole lot better than that, unless you set up something like a Job Guarantee.

The fall in unemployment rate wouldn't be correlated with minimum wage at all really, in my view; the rate it was at, is pretty much within the bounds of standard international rates for 'structural unemployment'.

bluewolf wrote: »

It seems quite obvious that when we have an unemployment problem, we should look at the causes and solutions

Agreed, but abolishing minimum wage is a permanent policy that lasts into good economic times as well; otherwise, why not argue for linking minimum wage to the unemployment rate, rather than abolishing it outright?

The causes of high unemployment right now, are pretty clearly to do with reduced consumer demand, due to reduced dispensable income, caused by debt-deflation (excessive private debts being deleveraged), and reduced public spending plus taxes.

maninasia

Barracuda1 wrote: »

If you were on the dole and wanted out of Ireland you would live on a paultry menu for a few months to get the money together.

Years ago I worked in Superquinn on minimum wage. At that time I had a particulalry nasty supervisor who enjoyed terrorizing people below him. Once Fergal appeared on the shop floor, caught him in the act, and asked me was I going to stand for this.
Well I had to stand for this as otherwise I didn't have a job Fergal (that's what I wanted to say but it didn't happen.... That or tell the supervisor to get f himself in front of the boss ).

Not sure of my point her beyond that Fergal Quinn is not a black and white character, not quite your typical CEO and if he says something he believes in it, even if his delivery or logic may have holes in it.

I don't agree with scrapping minimum wage, as it is very important for ensuring a minimum income standard for the working class, students, part-timers, people starting out and the money goes back into the local economy anyway, but there is a case for adjusting the wage if it is counterproductive to hiring people.

And yes social welfare rates would need to be adjusted in tandem to make it work.

Markcheese

RichardAnd wrote: »

Those people are of a mind set that they personally will never fall under the wing of the policies that they suggest should be brought into effect. I would imagine that they would change their tune if they were to find themselves on the dole or in need of a job. Capitalism is great, so long as it works for you.





Indeed, better that they remain here in dudgeon and despondency. After all, there are many magnanimous souls such as Mr Quinn who would only be too happy to take them on for an "exciting opportunity" via the Jobsbridge scheme or better yet, a position with remuneration free from the shackles of minimum wage regulations.

Correct me if I'm wrong but job bridge is completely voluntary, yes some employers probably are abusing the scheme , but why would you take a job bridge place to train to be a shelf stacker (unless you had no work experience at all)
And the way around minimum wage is through self employment... I'm self employed and would love to earn minimum wage .....

Markcheese

Unemployment leveled out at what economists generally would mark as a pretty good/low level of unemployment, between 4-5%; you don't get a whole lot better than that, unless you set up something like a Job Guarantee.

Unemployment may have been aprox 4 % during the boom,but that doesn't include the large number of non workers in our economy , those on disability, single parents allowance, ect ...
Does anyone know what % of the Irish population actually works ? or even what the definition of the Irish work force actually is , ?

Barracuda1

maninasia wrote: »

Years ago I worked in Superquinn on minimum wage. At that time I had a particulalry nasty supervisor who enjoyed terrorizing people below him. Once Fergal appeared on the shop floor, caught him in the act, and asked me was I going to stand for this.
Well I had to stand for this as otherwise I didn't have a job Fergal (that's what I wanted to say but it didn't happen.... That or tell the supervisor to get f himself in front of the boss ).

Not sure of my point her beyond that Fergal Quinn is not a black and white character, not quite your typical CEO and if he says something he believes in it, even if his delivery or logic may have holes in it.

I don't agree with scrapping minimum wage, as it is very important for ensuring a minimum income standard for the working class, students, part-timers, people starting out and the money goes back into the local economy anyway, but there is a case for adjusting the wage if it is counterproductive to hiring people.

And yes social welfare rates would need to be adjusted in tandem to make it work.

Good to hear from someone who has met Fergal. The problem we face here is that the tax to employ someone in ireland is high. The employers PRSI per employee is 10.75% This is higher than the UK. To pay min wage to a person is almost double the cost to the employer but the employee should not be the loser. A win win for everyong would be reducing the employers PRSI by 1% for companies with <50 employees. The bulk of employment in ireland are given by small companies employing <50 employees

RichardAnd

Markcheese wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but job bridge is completely voluntary, yes some employers probably are abusing the scheme , but why would you take a job bridge place to train to be a shelf stacker (unless you had no work experience at all)
And the way around minimum wage is through self employment... I'm self employed and would love to earn minimum wage .....

It is voluntary and I was not implying otherwise. However, what I was implying (though I will admit I did so though a medium of sarcasm) was that these schemes have injected something into the job market that will only detract from job seekers; the concept of working for experience.

I don't want to pull this thread into a debate on work experience because it's not its intended topic but I will simply say that asking people to work for experience is something that is almost always suggested by those who know (or at least, believe) that they will never be in such a position. It's extremely easy for someone with years of experience and a good job to tell a graduate that they should work for no pay but for the graduate, the prospect is soul destroying.

I'll leave it at that though, there has been many a thread wherein the topic has garnered far more detailed discussion.

flutered

Barracuda1 wrote: »

If you were on the dole and wanted out of Ireland you would live on a paultry menu for a few months to get the money together.

provided you do not have kids.

zenno

Markcheese wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but job bridge is completely voluntary, yes some employers probably are abusing the scheme , but why would you take a job bridge place to train to be a shelf stacker (unless you had no work experience at all)
And the way around minimum wage is through self employment... I'm self employed and would love to earn minimum wage .....

Not from what i have heard. As far as i know, you can be forced onto a jobbridge program and if you do not do it the social welfare will cut you off.

carpejugulum

Cienciano wrote: »

If you want to scrap the minimum wage, you have to reduce the dole and benefits. No one will take a job when state benefits are worth more.

That's already the case.

Both welfare and minimum wage should be cut.

Cossax

bluewolf wrote: »

Studies have shown that having a min wage does actually have a negative impact on employment.
http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/negative-effects-minimum-wage-laws

I know someone has pulled you on this earlier but I'm curious as to whether a) you just don't know that studies and meta-studies on the effects of minimum wages law tend to range from saying there are negative effects to saying there are little to no effect or b) you are deliberately misrepresenting the balance of studies for ideological reason?

maninasia

The CATO institute is not an impartial institute, so it's not really worth quoting from. If you can find some peer reviewed economic literature that is more valuable.

Saying setting a minimum wage is good or setting a minimum wage is bad DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING. A minimum wage could be 1 USD an hour or 100 USD an hour. It is an absolutely POINTLESS ARGUMENT of itself.

Minimum wage can be important for giving people enough money to live on, the key here is HOW MUCH should the minimum wage should be set at and how does it link together with the other structures such as social welfare and tax.

Maura74

I am all for scrapping minimum wage as it is only there to stop large employers exploiting their workers and that should not be happening anyway in a civilized countries.

I am all for decent living wage that employees can actually live on, i.e., not having any mean test benefits while working, which are funded by us the tax payers thus subsidizing large employers to benefit from the tax payer.

K.Flyer

He must have been out for a few with Bill. What, drop wages and work conditions even lower and make signing on even more attractive?
If you do not have happy workers, then you will not have productive workers and if you are going to pay them as little as possible they are going to do as little as possible for you in return, which is not good for any business.
Understanding the point if the cost of living was adjusted accordingly it would be a valid suggestion, but the cost of living is not dropping, if anything its going up.

FTA69

Having moved to London a little over a year ago I found myself working in a minimum wage job, namely a pub, due to the construction industry being intermittent and it being relatively difficult to secure a factory job outside of an agency which would pay in or around minimum wage. Over here you pay 20% tax on minimum wage as a matter of standard. The minimum wage is £6.08 an hour. So given 39 hours a week that equates to £237 gross and after tax you are left with £189 in your account per week. On top of this I was also doing an internship every week with a view to getting out of the above aforementioned job, which thankfully landed me a very well paid job after a year of free graft. However, the year I spent working in that pub on that wage, I'll never forget.

Rent for me was £80 a week with bills included, an absurdly low rent in London. However, the flat was and is grimy and run-down and in need of a refurb since the 1980s. The carpet is peeling up and the wallpaper is peeling down. The kitchen (a former catering kitchen for a pub) is vile and when I first moved in I found a nest of dead mice in the oven. The windows are rotting wooden sash windows that keep in no heat. The hot water is intermittent and frequently doesn't work. For three months our entire building was infested with mice. I got three in my room alone. The building has been broken into three times in three years.

After paying for this I was left with £100. Travel to my internship cost me £15 a week. I walked to and from the pub as I couldn't afford the bus. My girlfriend (of over 3 years) works as a nurse in a town outside London and to see her for a day a week costs another £25 in travel thus leaving me with spendable income of £60 per week. You can take £30 of that away for food and cigarettes which thus leaves you with another £30 disposable income. Not much in other words. You can forget going to the pub ever. You can forget trips to central London, or if you do go you can't do anything. I have the exact same clothes I brought over with me. If God forbid you have to go the dentist, or hurt yourself and can't work, or get the flu and can't work behind a bar your weekly income gets drastically slashed. You have no savings to rely on and you may fall behind your rent. The slightest purchase down to a sandwich at the train station gets monitored and antagonised over. Words can't really express the frustration of working a full-time job and finding yourself below the poverty line.

Living on a minimum wage is not easy. Those who would seek to reduce it often have no concept of what it is like to live on it. The pub chain I worked for is one of the largest in Europe, with annual profits of tens of millions but yet they pay their staff a wage that they can barely hope to live on. If you cut the minimum wage all you will do is take even more money out of the economy as those who earn the lowest wage tend to spend it. And when they do spend it they will spend it in service businesses. Personally I can't see how anyone can justify taking even more money out of the hands of the poorest section of the workforce in the name of greater profit for businesses.

I posted the above on a similar thread here a few months ago. Cutting the minimum wage to increase profiteering is a terrible idea.

eire4

bluewolf wrote: »

Sure we didn't even have min wage here til 2000.
It's also already perfectly legal to work for less than min wage if you have less than two years' work experience or are under 18.

Studies have shown that having a min wage does actually have a negative impact on employment.
http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/negative-effects-minimum-wage-laws


http://www.downsizinggovernment.org/labor/negative-effects-minimum-wage-laws

As for spending - well, cato has an article about that also
http://www.cato.org/blog/consumer-spending-myth



Whatever about scrapping it altogether, I think all 3 bands of it could at least do with being lowered.



I just found an interesting report from when they were considering introducing min wage in Ireland, actually...

http://www.djei.ie/publications/employment/1999/nationalminimumwagereport/appenb.htm

It looks like an introduction of the min wage was expected to cause a decline in employment particularly in industrial/building/construction, which would tie in with the USA- based reports above.

The Cato Institute wow talk about a biased group with absolutely no creditability at all. Nothing more then a Koch Brothers big business propaganda machine with a strong anti government libertarian bias.

Mr. teddywinkles

What do people on here think min wage should be reduced to?
What is reasonable wage for a 40 hr week?
What can you live on in a country with ever increasing taxes and prices?

And just lets say for arguements sake THERE IS NO WELFARE!

Cossax

Cossax wrote: »

I know someone has pulled you on this earlier but I'm curious as to whether a) you just don't know that studies and meta-studies on the effects of minimum wages law tend to range from saying there are negative effects to saying there are little to no effect or b) you are deliberately misrepresenting the balance of studies for ideological reason?

If there are more I'd love to read them?
It seems strange to dismiss a study done by a former govt employee because "they're biased"; either what they're saying is true based on freely available stats, or it isn't.
Anything else I have found e.g. Card and Krueger have focused narrowly on one particular industry in one particular state, and looked at the overall fall or increase of employment without isolating the factors or whether the increase in employment could have been faster otherwise, whether it was due to any other conditions... which is the same problem as the claims about the irish rates. Even one page which mentions them and seems to agree with them concludes:

Most studies have found that the entire net effect of an increase in minimum wage results in a slight decrease in employment. A 10 percent increase would most likely lead to only a 1 percent reduction in employment.

http://www.uvm.edu/~vlrs/doc/min_wage.htm
So it does a little about-turn to disagree with them, but then claims "well it's only a small effect anyway".

How about the American Enterprise Inst, will we listen to them?
http://www.aei.org/article/economics/fiscal-policy/labor/why-we-shouldnt-raise-the-minimum-wage/

Research published in 2010 by economists Joseph Sabia and Richard Burkhauser concluded that if the federal minimum wage were increased from $7.25 an hour to $9.50 an hour (remember that the president's proposal is to increase the minimum wage to $9 per hour), only 11.3% of workers who would gain from the increase belong to poor households.
Why?
First, many people who live in poverty do not work, and would thus be unaffected by an increase in the minimum wage. In addition, workers who earn the minimum wage are generally not the primary breadwinners in their households. They are secondary earners - an elderly parent earning some retirement income or a spouse with a part-time job. Or they are young people living with their parents. Data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics show that while workers under age 25 make up only about 20% of those who earn hourly wages, they constitute about half of all workers earning the minimum wage or less. Raising the minimum wage is therefore an ineffective anti-poverty proposal.
The case for a higher minimum wage grows even weaker when you stop to consider that there are vastly superior alternatives for steering money to low-income households. For example, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office has found that expanding the earned income tax credit is a much more efficient way to fight poverty than increasing the minimum wage.

Or these lads?

Neumark highlighted limitations of the some of the earlier studies of the minimum wage. Too often, he asserted, the research focused primarily on groups--such as teenagers--which include many workers not directly affected by the minimum wage. Thus, estimated results tended to understate the employment effects on sub-minimum wage workers.
Neumark and Wascher had reviewed studies of previous state-level panel analyses that estimated minimum wage effects as well as industry-specific case studies. Overall, they reviewed ninety different studies and highlighted what they found to be the most credible sources of information. They found that nearly two-thirds of the credible studies found job losses from an increased minimum wage.

http://www.aei.org/article/economics/the-minimum-wage-debate/
They're from the National Bureau of Economic Research; I trust this is unbiased enough
http://www.nber.org/papers/w12663

Our review indicates that there is a wide range of existing estimates and, accordingly, a lack of consensus about the overall effects on low-wage employment of an increase in the minimum wage. However, the oft-stated assertion that recent research fails to support the traditional view that the minimum wage reduces the employment of low-wage workers is clearly incorrect. A sizable majority of the studies surveyed in this monograph give a relatively consistent (although not always statistically significant) indication of negative employment effects of minimum wages. In addition, among the papers we view as providing the most credible evidence, almost all point to negative employment effects, both for the United States as well as for many other countries. Two other important conclusions emerge from our review. First, we see very few - if any - studies that provide convincing evidence of positive employment effects of minimum wages, especially from those studies that focus on the broader groups (rather than a narrow industry) for which the competitive model predicts disemployment effects. Second, the studies that focus on the least-skilled groups provide relatively overwhelming evidence of stronger disemployment effects for these groups.

The NBER is the nation's leading nonprofit economic research organization. Twenty-two Nobel Prize winners in Economics and thirteen past chairs of the President's Council of Economic Advisers have been researchers at the NBER. The more than 1,100 professors of economics and business now teaching at colleges and universities in North America who are NBER researchers are the leading scholars in their fields.

Mr. teddywinkles

RayM wrote: »

The sort of people who want to scrap the minimum wage are invariably the very same types who believe that people on the dole are living lives of luxury. Feargal Quinn, for instance, has said that social welfare recipients should have their internet usage monitored using "counter terrorism software" just to make sure that they're not buying cars and holidays.

I bet most never done a hard graft for min wage either or less.

fly_agaric

Arguments against having a living (or closer to living) minimum wage based on the fact it might "reduce employment" seem a bit strange to me.

What is the point of full-time job where employer can pay so little that the employee (no doubt forelock-tugging & appropriately grateful that they aren't on the scratcher) is basically destitute (or would be if govt. or perhaps some charity in the US case did not step in with any welfare supports)?

KyussBishop

bluewolf wrote: »

It seems strange to dismiss a study done by a former govt employee because "they're biased"; either what they're saying is true based on freely available stats, or it isn't.

Not really, it's perfectly acceptable to point out a Koch-funded institute is behind a study, and to cast doubt on it because of that, since there is an entire industry of think-tanks out there, devoted to the purpose of putting out junk-science, to back political aims.

Again, you wouldn't believe a Tobacco-industry funded study saying smoking is good for you.


What I find, is that people who have already chosen the outcome they are trying to prove, will ignore the credibility problems in studies that promote their views, and cast doubt on all competing studies, while ignoring the problems with the studies they promote (and also casting doubt on criticism of that).

Usually, it doesn't take a huge amount of effort in searching around, to start finding sources that undermine the credibility of such studies.

You will find this with almost every single right-wing think-tank study, revolving around issues involving gun control, regulation, minimum wage, pollution, global warming, carcinogenic chemicals, harmful substances in food, among much much else; there's a study out there for everything, where the desired outcome is decided beforehand, and the study fudged to meet that; there's a lot of junk-science, and it comes from a regular set of think-tanks, with predictable political/business connections.

bluewolf wrote: »

How about the American Enterprise Inst, will we listen to them?

They are a notorious think-tank known for putting out garbage on all sorts of issues:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/American_Enterprise_Institute

bluewolf wrote: »

They're from the National Bureau of Economic Research; I trust this is unbiased enough

The NBER is better (though not quite perfect, in being quite opaque, and from what is known, having some questionable funding), and the Neumark/Wascher's study is one among many on both sides of the (very much unsettled) debate.


The wider point in the minimum wage debate that is not addressed, but which I usually keep coming back to, is that (even accepting the loss of jobs argument for the moment) the arguments against it only really apply in times of high-unemployment; in times with low-unemployment more jobs are being made available all the time (unless it is argued that minimum wage permanently reduces the stock of jobs available, which would be a tall order to demonstrate).

With this being the case, you'd think opponents would argue for a falloff in minimum wage as unemployment increases, but instead complete abolition is usually argued (even for low-unemployment times); that implies loss of employment isn't the real issue for opponents, but something else.

Jcarroll07

I don't believe in the government setting the minimum wage, the less government involvement in peoples lives the better I think. However I personally could not take advantage of a worker in that situation by paying them next to nothing as it is simply wrong to do so in my opinion. While im against government telling business what to do and not to do I do believe that there should be some level below which people should not fall.

0ph0rce0

If they did get rid, the companies would be dropping it down to 4-5 euro for sure.

As soon as the government dropped it by a euro, every minimum paid job advertised on the net was changed in seconds to 7.75

What fool would work 40hrs a week for €160, Even if the dole was cut to €100 i still wouldn't do it.

Suryavarman

0ph0rce0 wrote: »

If they did get rid, the companies would be dropping it down to 4-5 euro for sure.

As soon as the government dropped it by a euro, every minimum paid job advertised on the net was changed in seconds to 7.75

What fool would work 40hrs a week for €160, Even if the dole was cut to €100 i still wouldn't do it.

If somebody isn't going to work a 40 hour week for €160 then businesses obviously aren't going to offer jobs at such a low rate are they?

0ph0rce0

Suryavarman wrote: »

If somebody isn't going to work a 40 hour week for €160 then businesses obviously aren't going to offer jobs at such a low rate are they?

Thats when the foreigner lads come in who will, not that i care. but you can be sure they will take it, so they will offer jobs at them low rates

Barracuda1

0ph0rce0 wrote: »

Thats when the foreigner lads come in who will, not that i care. but you can be sure they will take it, so they will offer jobs at them low rates

I'd say they would be taking up multiple jobs with that kind of wage. I can't see the min wage going that low when the government can leave it as it is and bring them in to the tax system

Suryavarman

0ph0rce0 wrote: »

Thats when the foreigner lads come in who will, not that i care. but you can be sure they will take it, so they will offer jobs at them low rates

And if they want to work for that kind of money, leave them. They'll probably be better off than they would be in their home country.

0ph0rce0

Suryavarman wrote: »

And if they want to work for that kind of money, leave them. They'll probably be better off than they would be in their home country.

That's what i said in my post, I DON'T CARE.

I have a grand paying job, but still a scummy move if it does happen. I've worked minimum wage and if it was any lower its just slave labor

Suryavarman

0ph0rce0 wrote: »

That's what i said in my post, I DON'T CARE.

I have a grand paying job, but still a scummy move if it does happen. I've worked minimum wage and if it was any lower its just slave labor

Slave labour is involuntary, working for less than the current minimum wage isn't. To call a low wage job slave labour is just stupid.