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What is wrong with the national side?

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24567…13

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    #32
    jimjamcos
    Registered Users Posts: 4,224 ✭✭✭jimjamcos


    trouttrout wrote: »
    What players exactly aren't good enough?

    Also, while we lack depth at TH, we certainly don't at 7. SOB is a world class 7 and Chris Henry is a brilliant replacement.

    SOB is a world class player but not a world class 7. You're very idea of what a world class 7 is is indicative of the problem with the Irish management and Irish rugby in general.

    SOB would get on any team in the world at 6 or 8, not 7!


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    #33
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    Tigerandahalf wrote: »
    Sean OBrien isnt a seven.
    Chris Henry isnt good enough for Ireland and is a converted 8    . Look at Tipuric today and you have a classic 7.


    Right, we'll end the conversation here I think


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    #34
    jimbomalley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭jimbomalley


    Tigerandahalf wrote: »
    Sean OBrien isnt a seven.
    Chris Henry isnt good enough for Ireland and is a converted 8. Look at Tipuric today and you have a classic 7.

    Wales played 2 distructive 7s today and it showed...they were all over english ball, hands everywhere. Fair play to howley, tough to create line breaks when you cant get clean ball from your rucks


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    #35
    jamiedav2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭jamiedav2011


    jimjamcos wrote: »
    SOB is a world class player but not a world class 7. You're very idea of what a world class 7 is is indicative of the problem with the Irish management and Irish rugby in general.

    SOB would get on any team in the world at 6 or 8, not 7!

    So Richie McCaw isn't a world class 7 then? Because SOB took him to the cleaners in NZ.

    Jesus christ this form is silly season on game days.


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    #36
    Tigerandahalf
    Registered Users Posts: 7,811 ✭✭✭Tigerandahalf


    Ah Nz hammered Ire 60 0.


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    #37
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,263 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    O brien is our best back row ball carrier, he is also a good ground hog in my opinion. Thats why hes our 7. The only bad point I'd put on him is he gives away some silly penalties. He would be wasted at 6 as it doesn't play to his strengths.

    Ok he may not be a pocock in a ruck, but hes better in open play in opinion....


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    #38
    jimjamcos
    Registered Users Posts: 4,224 ✭✭✭jimjamcos


    I feel that, given the nature of international rugby, it takes a coach of real charisma to succeed in the role. Either a coach who captivates a team through fear or charm - Kidney does neither. Say what you want about Gatland, but he generates a bond/atmosphere in which players raise their games for him.

    There's limited opportunity for an international coach to get his message and ideas across to players given the small windows which they operate within. He has to have personality, be an effective communicator, be bold in his approach and be willing to take risks. We see this regularly in Schmidt's management and very little in Kidneys.


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    #39
    Tigerandahalf
    Registered Users Posts: 7,811 ✭✭✭Tigerandahalf


    jimjamcos wrote: »
    I feel that, given the nature of international rugby, it takes a coach of real charisma to succeed in the role. Either a coach who captivates a team through fear or charm - Kidney does neither. Say what you want about Gatland, but he generates a bond/atmosphere in which players raise their games for him.

    There's limited opportunity for an international coach to get his message and ideas across to players given the small windows which they operate within. He has to have personality, be an effective communicator, be bold in his approach and be willing to take risks. We see this regularly in Schmidt's management and very little in Kidneys.

    I would agree with you there. Charisma is v important.


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    #40
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    jimjamcos wrote: »

    SOB is a world class player but not a world class 7. You're very idea of what a world class 7 is is indicative of the problem with the Irish management and Irish rugby in general.

    SOB would get on any team in the world at 6 or 8, not 7!
    This has been discussed so many times now that I have no real desire to have this discussion again, but the bottom line is, you're wrong. Our back row is excellently balanced.


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    #41
    jimbomalley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭jimbomalley


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    O brien is our best back row ball carrier, he is also a good ground hog in my opinion. Thats why hes our 7. The only bad point I'd put on him is he gives away some silly penalties. He would be wasted at 6 as it doesn't play to his strengths.

    Ok he may not be a pocock in a ruck, but hes better in open play in opinion....

    As good as he is (and I rate him as a top class 6 and a good 7) he is actually at fault for a lot of the scrum penalties against us as he stops pushing behind the prop (watching for breaks off the scrum) resulting in the scrum buckling...someone needs to have a quiet word with seanie


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    #42
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    This has been discussed so many times now that I have no real desire to have this discussion again, but the bottom line is, you're wrong. Our back row is excellently balanced.

    I would tend to agree but still unsure about POM. In 3 of the games in this 6N he left way too much of the burden on the other 2 backrows, his workrate was fairly poor. He was absolutely excellent against France, if he can keep playing like that then yes, our backrow is very well balanced. Not going to read anything into his performance today as he was moved to the wing.

    Edit - on SOB, he has put in several top class performances for Ireland at 7, including (according to the NZ press!) going toe-to-toe with McCaw in the 2nd test last summer, also got very good reviews after the first test.


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    #43
    Tigerandahalf
    Registered Users Posts: 7,811 ✭✭✭Tigerandahalf


    Ah christ George Hook has been banging on for years how unbalanced our backrows have been and he is right. We dont have a single natural 7 in the country.


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    #44
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,831 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Our problem is not lack of a bloody 'true 7'. For one, SOB has developed into an excellent openside. The fact he is also a destructive ball carrier is irrelevant. On top of which our number 8, for all his faults is an excellent back row on the deck. And Henry being a converted 8 is completely ****ing irrelevant. He's now a 7 and a damn good one.


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    #45
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    Tigerandahalf wrote: »
    Ah christ George Hook has been banging on for years how unbalanced our backrows have been and he is right. We dont have a single natural 7 in the country.

    Ah George Hook said it?!

    Sorry, I retract what I said earlier, you're completely right..







    Really didn't know Hook said it, I feel very silly now.




    All sarcasm


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    #46
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,263 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    jimbomalley wrote: »

    As good as he is (and I rate him as a top class 6 and a good 7) he is actually at fault for a lot of the scrum penalties against us as he stops pushing behind the prop (watching for breaks off the scrum) resulting in the scrum buckling...someone needs to have a quiet word with seanie

    A christ here.... He doesn't push behind a prop... Go back to sleep.


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    #47
    clsmooth
    Registered Users Posts: 3,591 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    jimbomalley wrote: »
    As good as he is (and I rate him as a top class 6 and a good 7) he is actually at fault for a lot of the scrum penalties against us as he stops pushing behind the prop (watching for breaks off the scrum) resulting in the scrum buckling...someone needs to have a quiet word with seanie

    Why don't you be that man? He's reachable on Twitter.


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    #48
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,831 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Please educate us on what a proper 7 does and what elements they would bring to our game that we are currently missing?


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    #49
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,831 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    A christ here.... He doesn't push behind a prop... Go back to sleep.

    Both flankers do it and it annoys me. Flankers mot pushing definitely makes a difference.


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    #50
    jimjamcos
    Registered Users Posts: 4,224 ✭✭✭jimjamcos


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    This has been discussed so many times now that I have no real desire to have this discussion again, but the bottom line is, you're wrong. Our back row is excellently balanced.

    We have a No.8 who's forever clearing out rucks and focusing primarily on donkey work.

    We have a No.7 who's our main ball-carrier at every opportunity and turning over very little ball in comparison to his penalty count at rucks.

    We have have no variation provided by either of the above of O'Mahoney come line-out time.


    But yes you're right...our back row is "excellently balanced" :rolleyes:


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    #51
    Quint2010
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    Injuries, the captaincy issue and a poor coaching ticket. You can't just blame one thing.


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    #52
    Tigerandahalf
    Registered Users Posts: 7,811 ✭✭✭Tigerandahalf


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Please educate us on what a proper 7 does and what elements they would bring to our game that we are currently missing?

    Watch Tipuric today.


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    #53
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    Tigerandahalf wrote: »
    Watch Tipuric today.

    Cop out :rolleyes:


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    #54
    jimbomalley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭jimbomalley


    sydthebeat wrote: »

    A christ here.... He doesn't push behind a prop... Go back to sleep.

    Really? So a 7/6 doesnt have his shoulder welded to the buttocks of the prop in front of him?? Watch the game again. The scrum goes backwards at least twice in the game just as sean sticks his head up. Its actually simple physics syd, 8 bodies pushing against 7 will normally come out on top. If you dont agree with me counter argue rather than being a dick


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    #55
    jamiedav2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭jamiedav2011


    jimbomalley wrote: »
    As good as he is (and I rate him as a top class 6 and a good 7) he is actually at fault for a lot of the scrum penalties against us as he stops pushing behind the prop (watching for breaks off the scrum) resulting in the scrum buckling...someone needs to have a quiet word with seanie


    ****in hell.

    Why even bother on this forum when the seagulls are around. :rolleyes:


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    #56
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    The amount of uneducated nonsense being spouted is incredible.


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    #57
    jimbomalley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭jimbomalley


    clsmooth wrote: »

    Why don't you be that man? He's reachable on Twitter.

    Well first off im not on twitter and secondly why would he listen to me when his (national) coaches cant see issue with it?


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    #58
    Tigerandahalf
    Registered Users Posts: 7,811 ✭✭✭Tigerandahalf


    If you want to have a debate, debate please. Dont be insulting people.
    Brent Pope said a while back that if Sean OBrien was in NZ he prob would have been converted to a hooker. He is very talented but has shortcomings in every position in the backrow.


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    #59
    jimbomalley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭jimbomalley


    jamiedav2011 wrote: »


    ****in hell.

    Why even bother on this forum when the seagulls are around. :rolleyes:

    Show me a good scrummaging unit where all 8 dont push as a unit? Ignorance is bliss though right?

    Edit: oh yeah, forgot to add :rolleyes: at the end, you know, just to emphasize my point :rolleyes:


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    #60
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Tigerandahalf wrote: »
    Ah christ George Hook has been banging on for years how unbalanced our backrows have been and he is right. We dont have a single natural 7 in the country.
    Both wrong.


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    #61
    clsmooth
    Registered Users Posts: 3,591 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    jimbomalley wrote: »
    Well first off im not on twitter and secondly why would he listen to me when his (national) coaches cant see issue with it?

    It's constructive criticism and if it stops a few scrum penalties per game I'm sure he'd listen to your opinion. Why be so shy? It's for the good of the nation? If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem Jim.


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