What is wrong with the national side?

rrpc

snotboogie wrote: »

You are putting words in my mouth! The unions would obviously like a successful club set up but right now it doesn't exist. Again, my point, Wales, Scotland and Italy do not take their provincial Rugby seriously in comparison to how Ireland, France and England operate and how they view international rugby.

There are a number of assumptions you are making here that aren't borne out by the facts.

Wales regional approach has largely failed because (a) the Welsh clubs have a greater history and fan base than the regional constructs and (b) as a byproduct of that are in direct competition with them for gate receipts and crowds.

Scotland has always struggled at club rugby because of the popularity of other sports. International rugby is the only exception, but to be fair to Glasgow they are improving their gates along with their performances.

Italy has much the same problems as Scotland. There was much discussion after the failure of Aironi to the effect that their next franchise should be based in Rome to capitalise on the increasing popularity of the national team. It remains to be seen if Zebre can survive.

France and England have always had a vibrant club scene with long traditions. Ireland adopted the same approach by leveraging off the existing provincial structure that is over a century old.

Liveforrugby

What's wrong with team? Players are too small. this expains it well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision

At the end of the day you can run amazing line etc etc but it's a pretty simple game jimmy runs into john the bigger man wins. end of

corny

Liveforrugby wrote: »

What's wrong with team? Players are too small. this expains it well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision

At the end of the day you can run amazing line etc etc but it's a pretty simple game jimmy runs into john the bigger man wins. end of

But if Jimmy is standing still while he receives the ball John is really gonna ram home the advantage. If Jimmy takes the ball at pace it might be a different story.

jm08

Liveforrugby wrote: »

What's wrong with team? Players are too small. this expains it well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision

At the end of the day you can run amazing line etc etc but it's a pretty simple game jimmy runs into john the bigger man wins. end of

.... and get injured a lot.

Denis Hickie made a very good point today on BBC News (and quoted in Irish Times).

“In recent years, certainly this year and even last year, there has been an horrific run of injuries,” added Hickie.
“When Ireland won the Grand Slam they used 21 players and this year they used 36 and Ireland doesn’t have 36 front-line international players.”

Liveforrugby

jm08 wrote: »

.... and get injured a lot.

Denis Hickie made a very good point today on BBC News (and quoted in Irish Times).

A direct result of being too small, the boys are brave but it's only a matter of time before you break

trouttrout

Liveforrugby wrote: »

A direct result of being too small, the boys are brave but it's only a matter of time before you break

Small in comparison to what? The English? The French? The Welsh?

Size of our players is not an issue

Liveforrugby

trouttrout wrote: »

Small in comparison to what? The English? The French? The Welsh?

Size of our players is not an issue

Maybe I guess

sydthebeat

Liveforrugby wrote: »

A direct result of being too small, the boys are brave but it's only a matter of time before you break

thats a viewpoint that has some credence but one i don't fully subscribe to.
We are not genetically different to any of the other celtic nations, especially the welsh. However they just seem to have a freakishly run of large players currently.

Other than than them we are not comparatively smaller.

this was the talk a year ago

interesting to see the average weights at that time. Ireland third in the list behind Wales and England.

according to this in the 2012 6N we were on average the third heaviest squad at 16 stone 3 behind scotland and wales...


so basically if you take wales out of the equation we do not have a small squad at all.

and who beat wales this year????

Tox56

I'm pretty sure we had a bigger (heavier) pack than England this year?

ouncer

very much liked the brendan fanning version (and he is a journalist whom usually i can't handle) where the flaws are internal. no more than delaney as fai chairman. great salaries, not much need for solutions as part of that salary. just ensure buddy system stays intact

case885

Tox56 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure we had a bigger (heavier) pack than England this year?

Its the backs where we are considerably smaller, id rather a team that can win a game with skill and talent rather than bulldozers as backs but surely some of the players can bulk up more without losing pace i maybe wrong. Personally id like to see the likes of murray, sexton, earls zebo put on lean muscle to make them stronger in tackling and taking hits but if it affects their game there is no point

schools rugby

case885 wrote: »

Its the backs where we are considerably smaller, id rather a team that can win a game with skill and talent rather than bulldozers as backs but surely some of the players can bulk up more without losing pace i maybe wrong. Personally id like to see the likes of murray, sexton, earls zebo put on lean muscle to make them stronger in tackling and taking hits but if it affects their game there is no point

Murray is in great shape as is Sexton . Both fine defenders

Podge_irl

Murray and Sexton are both a good deal larger than average for their positions.

case885

Yes true they are both at 6ft 2 and good weight but i think another 6-8 kilos lean muscle would be good for their defensive game but affect their pace, skill which i wouldnt want to see. Unfortunately all the top rugby nations have big lumps of backs now and if ireland want to compete with them without getting half the team injured i think the backs needs bulk up in muscle. Thats just my opinion

Podge_irl

6-8 kilos!?!?! That would out Sexton at 100kg, that's ludicrously large for a flyhalf.

Not to mention that along with being above average size for their positions, Sexton and Murray are two of the best defensive players in their position already. I'd take Sexton over any 10 in defence frankly.

Earls' problems in defence have nothing to do with size either.

GiftofGab

Liveforrugby wrote: »

What's wrong with team? Players are too small. this expains it well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision

At the end of the day you can run amazing line etc etc but it's a pretty simple game jimmy runs into john the bigger man wins. end of

Disagree. Size plays a big part yes...but skill and a rugby brain is more important. BOD isn't considered a giant yet was the best 13 the world ever seen. Richie McCaw is considered quite small for a flanker. He weighs in at only 106kg at 6ft 1". There has been some great players recent years that are extremely small. Shane Williams one example. Will Genia is playing brilliantly atm - he's only 5ft 8" and 85kg. 98 cap peter stinger was only 72kg.

Our problem was bad management and lack of depth in the squad. Our back up players are simply not good enough.

desertcircus

I know this Ireland-don't-have-enough-players trope is being thrown around in reaction to injuries, but we're really not that short on candidates for jerseys barring at 3. We could field Court, Strauss, Fitzpatrick, O'Callaghan, Tuohy, Locky, Henry, POM, Reddan, Jackson, Marshall, Earls, Trimble, Gilroy and Fitzgerald in the event of the entire likely starting team getting injured and that team wouldn't do too badly against all but the top sides. Throw in the likes of Madigan, Henderson, Cave, Kilcoyne and you're really not short of decent players.

case885

Podge_irl wrote: »

6-8 kilos!?!?! That would out Sexton at 100kg, that's ludicrously large for a flyhalf.

Not to mention that along with being above average size for their positions, Sexton and Murray are two of the best defensive players in their position already. I'd take Sexton over any 10 in defence frankly.

Earls' problems in defence have nothing to do with size either.

Alright calm, i was only making the point that it wouldnt hurt the backs to put on 5 kilos of muscle which improve their strength and may help them when their playing big teams like wales, south africa etc.

.ak

It could also ruin their agility and plyo abilities. Conditioning is far more important than strength training for backs imo.

case885

.ak wrote: »

It could also ruin their agility and plyo abilities. Conditioning is far more important than strength training for backs imo.

Im not on about strenght for their backs, I mean improving the backs (9-15) strenght. And conditioning is improving strength

.ak

case885 wrote: »

Im not on about strenght for their backs, I mean improving the backs (9-15) strenght. And conditioning is improving strength

... I get jokes.

case885

.ak wrote: »

... I get jokes.

Ok good for you.

.ak

Which is a nice way of saying stop acting the maggot.

JustinDee

case885 wrote: »

Alright calm, i was only making the point that it wouldnt hurt the backs to put on 5 kilos of muscle which improve their strength and may help them when their playing big teams like wales, south africa etc.

There is a balance applicable to each player individually. It is not a black and white case of one-size-fits-all.

irishbucsfan

case885 wrote: »

Alright calm, i was only making the point that it wouldnt hurt the backs to put on 5 kilos of muscle which improve their strength and may help them when their playing big teams like wales, south africa etc.

O'Driscoll in 2008 would disagree with you.

Do you realise these guys have professional S&C coaches who manage these things?

case885

irishbucsfan wrote: »

O'Driscoll in 2008 would disagree with you.

Do you realise these guys have professional S&C coaches who manage these things?

Ya your good at pointing out the obvious there..

clsmooth

case885 wrote: »

Ya your good at pointing out the obvious there..

Which is good when some cant see it

.ak

case885 wrote: »

Ya your good at pointing out the obvious there..

Okay enough of the sarky comments.