Woman: Antidepressants led to suicides of relatives

Fromthetrees

A mother who believes her son was turned into a suicidal killer by the side-effects of antidepressants has lost another family member to suicide while he was also on antidepressants.

Leonie Fennell has been campaigning to raise awareness about the potential side-effects of commonly prescribed SSRI antidepressants since her 22-year-old son, Shane Clancy, stabbed another young man to death, injured two others, and then killed himself in 2009.

She revealed the family is coming to terms with another death after her brother-in-law took his own life within a few months of beginning to take the same antidepressant, which he was prescribed after feeling low following heart surgery.

I'm of the opinion that we still don't completely understand the full effects that these drugs can have on people, both short and long term.

I also believe that pills are way over prescribed in this country.

What do ye think?

--Kaiser--

I don't think brain chemicals should be ****ed about with and think these type of drugs should be a last resort, not a first.

Here's a good piece I read recently about the dangers of anti-depressants
http://www.thestreetspirit.org/August2005/interview.htm

When you look at the research literature, you find a clear pattern of outcomes with all these drugs -- you see it with the antipsychotics, the antidepressants, the anti-anxiety drugs and the stimulants like Ritalin used to treat ADHD. All these drugs may curb a target symptom slightly more effectively than a placebo does for a short period of time, say six weeks. An antidepressant may ameliorate the symptoms of depression better than a placebo over the short term.

What you find with every class of these psychiatric drugs is a worsening of the target symptom of depression or psychosis or anxiety over the long term, compared to placebo-treated patients. So even on the target symptoms, there's greater chronicity and greater severity of symptoms. And you see a fairly significant percentage of patients where new and more severe psychiatric symptoms are triggered by the drug itself.

petes

It says on the instructions that come with them to make sure a friend or family also reads the instructions because suicide ideation can be heightened while they take effect.

smash

Was he taking the same stuff as Justin Bieber's hamster?

seamus

I've never understood the logic of treating someone who is suicidal with pills which make you think about suicide.

The prescription of SSRI's appears to be one of the most successful marketing con jobs of the modern era, right up there with DeBeers and their diamonds.

--Kaiser--

seamus wrote: »

I've never understood the logic of treating someone who is suicidal with pills which make you think about suicide.

The prescription of SSRI's appears to be one of the most successful marketing con jobs of the modern era, right up there with DeBeers and their diamonds.

Depression medication - may cause suicidal thoughts.
That's a bit like: Headache pills - may cause massive skullsplitting migraines

Phill Ewinn

Lots of misinformation, bolloxology and armchair doctors to follow.

Antidepressants work. Finding the one that works for you isn't always easy. GPS are mostly not the right people to turn to when antidepressants are needed.

smash

seamus wrote: »

I've never understood the logic of treating someone who is suicidal with pills which make you think about suicide.

It's like treating a rapist with Viagra!

A lot of peoples lives have changed for the better because of SSRIs. It just isn't deemed news worthy.

Remember these people were prescribed SSRIs because they were mentally unstable, seems a bit unfair to blame SSRI when they lose it without some direct proof.

--Kaiser--

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Lots of misinformation, bolloxology and armchair doctors to follow.

Antidepressants work. Finding the one that works for you isn't always easy. GPS are mostly not the right people to turn to when antidepressants are needed.

There are many studies suggesting they don't work as well as pharmaceutical companies say. Like this one
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253608/?tool=pubmed

These findings suggest that, compared with placebo, the new-generation antidepressants do not produce clinically significant improvements in depression in patients who initially have moderate or even very severe depression, but show significant effects only in the most severely depressed patients.

Jimoslimos

seamus wrote: »

I've never understood the logic of treating someone who is suicidal with pills which make you think about suicide.

The prescription of SSRI's appears to be one of the most successful marketing con jobs of the modern era, right up there with DeBeers and their diamonds.

My theory on the mechanism of how these drugs may be responsible for an observed increase in suicide.
Q: What do you need to commit suicide?
A: Motivation

Q: What do severely depressed individuals have little of?
A: See answer above

So SSRIs may be effective anti-depressants, but in treating severe depression may be giving motivation to suicidal individuals who previously would not have been able to carry out the act.

Just speculation mind.

Fromthetrees

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Lots of misinformation, bolloxology and armchair doctors to follow.

Antidepressants work. Finding the one that works for you isn't always easy. GPS are mostly not the right people to turn to when antidepressants are needed.

Depression is such a broad thing though. The man in the article above was down because he had had heart surgery but anyone could be after such a serious procedure done to them.

Even people with the most positive outlooks in life can have off periods.

Have we got to the stage that there's a little pill for all of life's little troubles. There are a variety of other treatments that should be prescribed before we just give people mind altering pills. Exercise, better diet, certain techniques ect. should all be placed before pill.

starlings

Fromthetrees wrote: »

A mother who believes her son was turned into a suicidal killer by the side-effects of antidepressants has lost another family member to suicide while he was also on antidepressants.




I'm of the opinion that we still don't completely understand the full effects that these drugs can have on people, both short and long term.

I also believe that pills are way over prescribed in this country.

What do ye think?

We - laypeople - don't completely understand, of course not. That's why people study this for years before they're qualified to even hypothesise about drugs, let alone create, prescribe and monitor them.

The only speculation I'll make is that poor Leonie Farrell is heartbroken and trying desperately to understand what happened to her son.

Jimoslimos

Fromthetrees wrote: »

Even people with the most positive outlooks in life can have off periods.

There's a helluva difference between having an off-period and being clinically depressed.

Also depression ≠ suicidal

Zillah

I'm going to predict that 99% of people in After Hours don't have anything approaching a sufficient understanding of chemistry, medicine or mental health to be able to comment usefully on this topic, but that they're going to anyway.

snollup

seamus wrote: »

I've never understood the logic of treating someone who is suicidal with pills which make you think about suicide.

The prescription of SSRI's appears to be one of the most successful marketing con jobs of the modern era, right up there with DeBeers and their diamonds.

Hey seamus, having been taking various antidepressants (inc. SSRI's) during various stages of my life I can say that they are far from a marketing con job.

I am currently recovering from recurrent depression, a bout that has persisted for about 2 years now. Antidepressants have provided me the stability to put in the efforts to do what is need for recovery.

And yes, some people do not react well to certain AD's. It is ironic that a huge number of these types of medications even state on the instructions that they may cause suicidal thoughts but from my understanding this is the case in (only) a small percentage of cases.

In the vast majority of cases (in my experience) people respond very positively to their medications.

I guess all people suffering with mental illness may need the people around us to be aware as best they can to how our moods are. This would be even more the case if only starting a medication or while having our current prescription adjusted.

For me, it was my efforts that got me well but my AD's gave me the stability to start to put in my effort.

Czarcasm

Fromthetrees wrote: »

A mother who believes her son was turned into a suicidal killer by the side-effects of antidepressants has lost another family member to suicide while he was also on antidepressants.

Just reading that piece alone, the possibility should be considered that there were other contributing factors which this woman may not have been privy to or taken into account when coming to the conclusion that it must have been the anti-depressants that caused them to commit suicide.

I'm of the opinion that we still don't completely understand the full effects that these drugs can have on people, both short and long term.

These drugs though are prescribed for millions of people around the world who according to overwhelming medical evidence currently available, have found them to be very beneficial as a method of helping them to cope with numerous mental health disorders. There have been long term studies carried out but again these can only be based on medical evidence available at the time. If it were found that the long term effects can include more adverse effects than the solutions they offer to the majority, then I would presume people would be made far more aware of the issues.

I also believe that pills are way over prescribed in this country.

What do ye think?

I'd agree with this alright, as most mental disorder drugs are only quick fix solutions, and that's unfortunately nowadays what most people want, are quick fix solutions to their diagnoses, rather than taking the time and examining the underlying problems that led to their predicament they find themselves in.

In saying that though, I'd sooner see people taught that pills are only a temporary measure to help them cope while the underlying problems are addressed, than see people opt for what they see as the even quicker solution which is committing suicide.

Was that the lad who killed his ex and her new boyfriend a few years ago?

When people start quoting opinion pieces, it's downhill from there on.

Anti depressants work, although initially they have some settling in side effects - like many other drugs - with may include an increase in the target symptoms at first.

Sadly some people have committed suicide while (not necessarily because) they're medicated with them, but the number who have experienced a huge improvement in the quality of life, or the lives saved, massively, massively outweigh that number.

We don't know if the suicides had any other factors involved. So lets not point people desperately needing help away from where they're most likely to get it.

Fromthetrees

starlings wrote: »

We - laypeople - don't completely understand, of course not. That's why people study this for years before they're qualified to even hypothesise about drugs, let alone create, prescribe and monitor them.

There's over 400,000 people in Ireland today on antidepressants. I think this is way too high of a number and not nearly enough is done to explore why there are so many people being prescribed pills.

starlings wrote: »

The only speculation I'll make is that poor Leonie Farrell is heartbroken and trying desperately to understand what happened to her son.

That kind of sounds like amateur psychologist talk to me. :P

Jimoslimos wrote: »

There's a helluva difference between having an off-period and being clinically depressed.

Also depression ≠ suicidal

I know.

That's probably the main reason why I think GP's over prescribe antidepressants.

eviltwin

Dealing with my own depression I have found that doctors are very quick to want to offer meds.

I've nothing against them and know people who have done well on them but personally I think they should be a last resort. I wanted to try out other options, self help, cbt etc but was made to feel by doctors that meds were the only solution.

I'm happy to say I found my salvation in exercise, since I started doing seriously committing to it, I haven't had any depressive episodes. There's no doubt some people wouldn't be here today or be able to funtion without them so we shouldn't dismiss them all but I suppose like anything what works for one person may not be as successful for another.

My advice to anyone with depression is to know your illness, read up on as much as you can about all available treatments and experiment with what works best for you. And if that means taking medication so be it.

seamus

snollup wrote: »

Hey seamus, having been taking various antidepressants (inc. SSRI's) during various stages of my life I can say that they are far from a marketing con job.

Actually I don't disagree at all that for many people they can work if they're correctly prescribed and monitored.

The problem is the insane levels of prescription of drugs which in reality should only be used on a relatively small number of people, and prescribed by doctors who may lack the necessary clinical knowledge to correctly assess the patient.

They're right up there with antibiotics as doctors' favourite solution for getting rid of annoying patients.

Madam_X

The big pharma conspiracy stuff is boring too - they don't have a chip inserted into every doctor/psychiatrist's brain programming them to make money. Some medical professionals actually do care about treating patients properly! :eek:

sbsquarepants

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Depression medication - may cause suicidal thoughts.
That's a bit like: Headache pills - may cause massive skullsplitting migraines

I bought eyedrops a while back to try un-bloodshot my eyes after a weekend drinking, read the little leaflet that comes with them -
Common side effects - may cause bloodshot eyes:mad:

Wattle

I had some really bad experiences on Prozac which was marketed as a kind of miracle cure-all for depression. Couldn't get off that drug fast enough. In time with trial and error I managed to get the right meds and I take them to this day. The idea of anti-depressants is to give you a floor that you won't plunge through. They can help people function to a basic degree which starts to take their mind off suicidal ideation. I do think phramaceutical companies have quite a bit to answer for i.e. putting doctors under pressure to prescribe pills that may be totally unsuited to a patients needs.

Princess Peach

A lot of speculation going on in that article. Who is to say they would still be alive if they hadn't taken medication?

My doctor made it very clear to me what side affects I may suffer when starting on medication and I was given information on what to do if I were to feel worse and suicidal.

For me medication was not a last resort, because I was too far gone by the time I sought help, and change in lifestyle wasn't an option, and counselling, while recommended, would take too long.

Just my experiences anyway!

mcwinning

eviltwin wrote: »

Dealing with my own depression I have found that doctors are very quick to want to offer meds.

I've nothing against them and know people who have done well on them but personally I think they should be a last resort. I wanted to try out other options, self help, cbt etc but was made to feel by doctors that meds were the only solution.

I'm happy to say I found my salvation in exercise, since I started doing seriously committing to it, I haven't had any depressive episodes. There's no doubt some people wouldn't be here today or be able to funtion without them so we shouldn't dismiss them all but I suppose like anything what works for one person may not be as successful for another.

My advice to anyone with depression is to know your illness, read up on as much as you can about all available treatments and experiment with what works best for you. And if that means taking medication so be it.

Glad you are doing well now! Exercise is one of the best and most underprescribed treatment of depression.


The ladies loss was awful, but I don't like to see large newspaper reports with personal opinion being presented about medical issues without solid research to support the claim.

Scruffles

some users are using SSRI as a collective term for anti depressants,there are a lot more anti depressent classes than that,these all work differently on chemical uptake and have different side effects and some have more interactions with other drugs.
am prescribed a higher than the normal maximum doseage of an SNRI called cymbalta, and without it woud not be here.

the main reason why anti depressents carry a risk of suicidal thought once it starts getting into the system is because the chemicals are slowly balancing,which in some peoples cases makes them get back clear thinking and lose their fatigue but still have the depressive thinking,this means they now have the mental focus to make sense of their thinking and also have the energy to go through with it.

GPs or specialists usualy point out the suicidal risk at the start of a new AD-they dont hide it, however for those of us with severe clinical depression its nothing to what we already contend with and its a chance at gaining our life and our own mind back again.


with the original story,its possible for non violent people to turn into killers from medications.
although its an anti pyschotic;not AD,does no one remember the american lad william freund;
http://murderpedia.org/male.F/f/freund-william.htm
he was an aspie lad newly on geodon; an anti pyschotic for something [cant remember what], had been on the autism spectrum disorder forum he joined at the time where we saw his discent into madness; killed two of his neighbours and himself,poor lad was treated like absolute sht by a load of grammar nazis on the forum and another forum,and neither believed his threats because of his spelling,the parents tried sueing alex plank/owner of the ASD forum for 'not taking it seriously' when they had been doing so behind the scenes.

Victor

Jimoslimos wrote: »

My theory on the mechanism of how these drugs may be responsible for an observed increase in suicide.
Q: What do you need to commit suicide?
A: Motivation

Q: What do severely depressed individuals have little of?
A: See answer above

So SSRIs may be effective anti-depressants, but in treating severe depression may be giving motivation to suicidal individuals who previously would not have been able to carry out the act.

Just speculation mind.

I would largely agree with the above. Taking an angry person, who is depressed and incapable and giving them anti-depressants can change them to being an angry, capable person and that may boil over.

Any such medication is only part of the treatment and the person needs to be under supervision, especially when taking them first or changing their dosage.

suicide_circus

SSRIs helped me a lot where a mumbo jumbo headshrinker didnt. Probably saved my life actually. Sometimes people need drugs.

General Zod

Previously been on lexapro to treat SAD and wouldn't hesitate to go back on them if necessary. Finding things are more managable now using exercise and a lamp.

They are by no means a cakewalk but it's better than the alternative.

Chuck Stone

Madam_X wrote: »

The big pharma conspiracy stuff is boring

You know that big pharma suppressed studies that showed AD's in a bad light? But hey, let's not let pesky critical medical research cast aspersions on a multi-billion dollar industry.

Selective reporting of clinical trial results may have adverse consequences for researchers, study participants, health care professionals, and patients.

Erick H. Turner, M.D., Annette M. Matthews, M.D., Eftihia Linardatos, B.S., Robert A. Tell, L.C.S.W., and Robert Rosenthal, Ph.D.
N Engl J Med 2008

That's not conspiratorial?

orestes

Not all anti-depressants are SSRI. I was perscribed SSRI medication (lexapro) a few years ago to help deal with depression, but it was explained to me very clearly by my doctor that that the medication was only to take the edge off so that I could work on getting well (counselling, exercise, etc.) and that they weren't a cure. If you're taking them and drinking heavily on them or sitting in your room all day every day or something like that then you're just messing with your brain chemistry and not doing yourself any favours. They do help, but they aren't a miracle cure by any means. Just based on my own experience of them though and the way my GP explained them to me.

scdublin

Fromthetrees wrote: »

I also believe that pills are way over prescribed in this country.

I 100% agree with this statement. I know so many people who have gone through a bad time and felt down, went to their doctors and mentioned it and been prescribed medication for it on the spot. I just don't feel comfortable about that considering the unknown effects of some of these pills, and also the fact that the person might not be depressed as such.

Obviously a person with a history of depression should be considered for these medications, especially if they feel it helps.

Da Shins Kelly

Anti-depressants can and do work. While I don't think they should ever be seen as a quick fix or the go-to solution for everyone, they often give people the lift they need so they can put a bit of distance between themselves and their illness to try and start figuring out what it is that has them feeling the way they do and get on the road to feeling better in the long run. Apart from in the cases of extreme mental illness, I don't think that medication is really a long-term thing for most people. It's just something to help them in the short term to get a bit of perspective so they can start to address their problems instead of just using medication as a way to feel better without actually confronting what it is that has them feeling that way.

It's probably worth mentioning too that just because one person had a bad experience on one brand of prescribed medication doesn't mean that everyone will. It often takes a bit of chopping and changing with medication to find the one that suits best with the least side-effects. It's not a one size fits all situation, you need to try and find the one that suits you as an individual.

Fromthetrees

scdublin wrote: »

I 100% agree with this statement. I know so many people who have gone through a bad time and felt down, went to their doctors and mentioned it and been prescribed medication for it on the spot. I just don't feel comfortable about that considering the unknown effects of some of these pills, and also the fact that the person might not be depressed as such.

Obviously a person with a history of depression should be considered for these medications, especially if they feel it helps.

We have one of the highest rates of suicide in Europe so there is without doubt something woefully wrong with the way we treat mental health here in Ireland.

In many ways we're just dealing with it by saying, here, take a pill, and relax while we cut funding to mental health services.

It's ridiculous.

Da Shins Kelly

Fromthetrees wrote: »

We have one of the highest rates of suicide in Europe so there is without doubt something woefully wrong with the way we treat mental health here in Ireland.

In many ways we're just dealing with it by saying, here, take a pill, and relax while we cut funding to mental health services.

It's ridiculous.

To be honest, I don't even think that there is that whole 'take and pill and feel better' attitude in Ireland (not like there is in the US anyway). I think the problem in Ireland lies more with people's reluctance to address mental health problems at all. The whole 'keep that to yourself' attitude.

P_1

Hang on a moment.

We have our powers that be clamping down on people's choices regarding nicotine, caffeine and alcohol (3 naturally occurring ingredients) consumption yet they're encouraging the consumption of these chemicals that make depressed people even more depressed.

Something is very wrong with this scenario.

Fromthetrees

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Anti-depressants can and do work. While I don't think they should ever be seen as a quick fix or the go-to solution for everyone, they often give people the lift they need so they can put a bit of distance between themselves and their illness to try and start figuring out what it is that has them feeling the way they do and get on the road to feeling better in the long run. Apart from in the cases of extreme mental illness, I don't think that medication is really a long-term thing for most people. It's just something to help them in the short term to get a bit of perspective so they can start to address their problems instead of just using medication as a way to feel better without actually confronting what it is that has them feeling that way.

It's probably worth mentioning too that just because one person had a bad experience on one brand of prescribed medication doesn't mean that everyone will. It often takes a bit of chopping and changing with medication to find the one that suits best with the least side-effects. It's not a one size fits all situation, you need to try and find the one that suits you as an individual.

That's absolutely the right thing to do in cases where people need it but the problem is do we need to 'experiment' with hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Irish peoples brains every day?

Why are pills the first port of call with this?

Treatment must be made more individualised and by that I don't mean simply trying out different pills with different effects over the course of a year. I mean targeted ways to help a person on a personal level.

Fromthetrees

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

To be honest, I don't even think that there is that whole 'take and pill and feel better' attitude in Ireland (not like there is in the US anyway). I think the problem in Ireland lies more with people's reluctance to address mental health problems at all. The whole 'keep that to yourself' attitude.

I think it's more a lack of knowledge as a whole and by that I would include GP's too.

Victor

P_1 wrote: »

We have our powers that be clamping down on people's choices regarding nicotine, caffeine and alcohol (3 naturally occurring ingredients) consumption

Just because something is natural doesn't mean it is good for you. Fancy some mercury or arsenic? After heroin, alcohol is the most destructive drug out there. And anti-depressants are controlled a lot more than those three. Can you imagine if someone today invented a drug with the same effects / side effects as alcohol? They'd never get it licenced.

And there is nothing natural about the chemicals added to cigarettes, nor do you naturally find 24 can slabs growing on fruit trees.

yet they're encouraging the consumption of these chemicals that make depressed people even more depressed.

Read the thread.

dlofnep

Antidepressants are bollocks and make people worse in the long run. Any of my friends who have used them, are still on them - and are still bolloxed. I've suffered depression equal to anyone else, and I've never once thought that they would benefit me. I toughed it out, occupied my mind with hobbies, exercised to lift my spirits... Antidepressants only mask problems, they do not cure them.

P_1

Victor wrote: »

Just because something is natural doesn't mean it is good for you. Fancy some mercury or arsenic?

And there is nothing natural about the chemicals added to cigarettes, nor do you naturally find 24 can slabs growing on fruit trees.

I didn't mention cigarettes, I mentioned nicotine. Big difference.

Nicotine has been proven to help people, the problem with extracting it through cigarettes are the chemicals added to it. There have been more beneficial ways of extracting the nicotine for consumption that have been banned.

Similarly I mentioned alcohol, not 24 can slabs, again a massive difference.

planetX

They've been a disaster for 3 members of my family, one of whom is now dead. 2 are still recovering from the after effects of years on high doses, and are much improved by being completely off them. And they may not be addictive, but one in particular is extremely nasty to discontinue. I believe they're a way to get rid of the patient, an easy answer to a difficult problem.

ziggy23

I was prescribed anti-depressants a few times. My doctor hands them out like sweets. The last ones I was on made me like a zombie and if I had a few drinks even 1 or 2 beers I behaved very strangely. I don't take anything at the moment and feel much better. I still get low days but I can deal with them. I really feel anti-depressants are over prescribed in this country, plus people are given them and left to their own devices no real check ups done. The withdrawal symptoms if you stop taking them can be a bastard too I managed to wean myself off the last ones and minimise the withdrawal symptoms by taking Omega 3 supplements.

GalwayGuy2

To clarify a little bit, I think the pills can make you think about commiting suicide, but they don't actually make you commit suicide.

We have one of the highest rates of suicide in Europe so there is without doubt something woefully wrong with the way we treat mental health here in Ireland.

In many ways we're just dealing with it by saying, here, take a pill, and relax while we cut funding to mental health services.

It's ridiculous.

It'd be interesting to know if they were on pills themselves, or avoided seeking help.

Steve O

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Lots of misinformation, bolloxology and armchair doctors to follow.

Antidepressants work. Finding the one that works for you isn't always easy. GPS are mostly not the right people to turn to when antidepressants are needed.

100%

I wish I could afford them, but it does take time to find the right ones.

Steve O

dlofnep wrote: »

Antidepressants are bollocks and make people worse in the long run. Any of my friends who have used them, are still on them - and are still bolloxed. I've suffered depression equal to anyone else, and I've never once thought that they would benefit me. I toughed it out, occupied my mind with hobbies, exercised to lift my spirits... Antidepressants only mask problems, they do not cure them.

So much bull**** in one post. If you think "toughening up" or going to the gym for an hour is going to stop your depressive thoughts, you really don't know the true effects.

You gym for an hour, yea you feel great, You've worked hard, but guess what? Your mind continues on with the same hopelessness.

You go do your hobby, feel great, have a laugh. Guess what? Your mind goes into the same state.

You talk about masking problems? All of the above do. Anti-depressants gave me the ability to be able to sit down and relax, without letting the mind take over.

cassid

Specific Anti depressants can be used to treat chronic neuro pain. I suffer from a specific neuro condition that is pretty awful, started a specific anti-depressant which helped to block the pain receptors to my brain, so have a "normal" life for now.

dlofnep

Steve O wrote: »

So much bull**** in one post. If you think "toughening up" or going to the gym for an hour is going to stop your depressive thoughts, you really don't know the true effects.

You gym for an hour, yea you feel great, You've worked hard, but guess what? Your mind continues on with the same hopelessness.

You go do your hobby, feel great, have a laugh. Guess what? Your mind goes into the same state.

You talk about masking problems? All of the above do. Anti-depressants gave me the ability to be able to sit down and relax, without letting the mind take over.

Yeah that's great - enjoy being dependent on mood-altering drugs. I'll do fine without it.

Chuck Stone

seamus wrote: »

Actually I don't disagree at all that for many people they can work

And so can placebo except placebos are cheap and non-toxic with fewer side-effects.