Woman: Antidepressants led to suicides of relatives

Fromthetrees · 14-03-2013 02:41PM #1

A mother who believes her son was turned into a suicidal killer by the side-effects of antidepressants has lost another family member to suicide while he was also on antidepressants.

Leonie Fennell has been campaigning to raise awareness about the potential side-effects of commonly prescribed SSRI antidepressants since her 22-year-old son, Shane Clancy, stabbed another young man to death, injured two others, and then killed himself in 2009.

She revealed the family is coming to terms with another death after her brother-in-law took his own life within a few months of beginning to take the same antidepressant, which he was prescribed after feeling low following heart surgery.

I'm of the opinion that we still don't completely understand the full effects that these drugs can have on people, both short and long term.

I also believe that pills are way over prescribed in this country.

What do ye think?

--Kaiser-- · 14-03-2013 02:48PM

I don't think brain chemicals should be ****ed about with and think these type of drugs should be a last resort, not a first.

Here's a good piece I read recently about the dangers of anti-depressants
http://www.thestreetspirit.org/August2005/interview.htm

When you look at the research literature, you find a clear pattern of outcomes with all these drugs -- you see it with the antipsychotics, the antidepressants, the anti-anxiety drugs and the stimulants like Ritalin used to treat ADHD. All these drugs may curb a target symptom slightly more effectively than a placebo does for a short period of time, say six weeks. An antidepressant may ameliorate the symptoms of depression better than a placebo over the short term.

What you find with every class of these psychiatric drugs is a worsening of the target symptom of depression or psychosis or anxiety over the long term, compared to placebo-treated patients. So even on the target symptoms, there's greater chronicity and greater severity of symptoms. And you see a fairly significant percentage of patients where new and more severe psychiatric symptoms are triggered by the drug itself.

petes · 14-03-2013 02:48PM

It says on the instructions that come with them to make sure a friend or family also reads the instructions because suicide ideation can be heightened while they take effect.

smash · 14-03-2013 02:52PM

Was he taking the same stuff as Justin Bieber's hamster?

seamus · 14-03-2013 02:57PM

I've never understood the logic of treating someone who is suicidal with pills which make you think about suicide.

The prescription of SSRI's appears to be one of the most successful marketing con jobs of the modern era, right up there with DeBeers and their diamonds.

--Kaiser-- · 14-03-2013 03:01PM

seamus wrote: »

I've never understood the logic of treating someone who is suicidal with pills which make you think about suicide.

The prescription of SSRI's appears to be one of the most successful marketing con jobs of the modern era, right up there with DeBeers and their diamonds.

Depression medication - may cause suicidal thoughts.
That's a bit like: Headache pills - may cause massive skullsplitting migraines

Phill Ewinn · 14-03-2013 03:01PM

Lots of misinformation, bolloxology and armchair doctors to follow.

Antidepressants work. Finding the one that works for you isn't always easy. GPS are mostly not the right people to turn to when antidepressants are needed.

smash · 14-03-2013 03:02PM

seamus wrote: »

I've never understood the logic of treating someone who is suicidal with pills which make you think about suicide.

It's like treating a rapist with Viagra!

14-03-2013 03:03PM

A lot of peoples lives have changed for the better because of SSRIs. It just isn't deemed news worthy.

Remember these people were prescribed SSRIs because they were mentally unstable, seems a bit unfair to blame SSRI when they lose it without some direct proof.

--Kaiser-- · 14-03-2013 03:05PM

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Lots of misinformation, bolloxology and armchair doctors to follow.

Antidepressants work. Finding the one that works for you isn't always easy. GPS are mostly not the right people to turn to when antidepressants are needed.

There are many studies suggesting they don't work as well as pharmaceutical companies say. Like this one
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253608/?tool=pubmed

These findings suggest that, compared with placebo, the new-generation antidepressants do not produce clinically significant improvements in depression in patients who initially have moderate or even very severe depression, but show significant effects only in the most severely depressed patients.

Jimoslimos · 14-03-2013 03:08PM

seamus wrote: »

I've never understood the logic of treating someone who is suicidal with pills which make you think about suicide.

The prescription of SSRI's appears to be one of the most successful marketing con jobs of the modern era, right up there with DeBeers and their diamonds.

My theory on the mechanism of how these drugs may be responsible for an observed increase in suicide.
Q: What do you need to commit suicide?
A: Motivation

Q: What do severely depressed individuals have little of?
A: See answer above

So SSRIs may be effective anti-depressants, but in treating severe depression may be giving motivation to suicidal individuals who previously would not have been able to carry out the act.

Just speculation mind.

Fromthetrees · 14-03-2013 03:11PM

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Lots of misinformation, bolloxology and armchair doctors to follow.

Antidepressants work. Finding the one that works for you isn't always easy. GPS are mostly not the right people to turn to when antidepressants are needed.

Depression is such a broad thing though. The man in the article above was down because he had had heart surgery but anyone could be after such a serious procedure done to them.

Even people with the most positive outlooks in life can have off periods.

Have we got to the stage that there's a little pill for all of life's little troubles. There are a variety of other treatments that should be prescribed before we just give people mind altering pills. Exercise, better diet, certain techniques ect. should all be placed before pill.

starlings · 14-03-2013 03:14PM

Fromthetrees wrote: »

A mother who believes her son was turned into a suicidal killer by the side-effects of antidepressants has lost another family member to suicide while he was also on antidepressants.

I'm of the opinion that we still don't completely understand the full effects that these drugs can have on people, both short and long term.

I also believe that pills are way over prescribed in this country.

What do ye think?

We - laypeople - don't completely understand, of course not. That's why people study this for years before they're qualified to even hypothesise about drugs, let alone create, prescribe and monitor them.

The only speculation I'll make is that poor Leonie Farrell is heartbroken and trying desperately to understand what happened to her son.

Jimoslimos · 14-03-2013 03:15PM

Fromthetrees wrote: »

Even people with the most positive outlooks in life can have off periods.

There's a helluva difference between having an off-period and being clinically depressed.

Also depression ≠ suicidal

Zillah · 14-03-2013 03:17PM

I'm going to predict that 99% of people in After Hours don't have anything approaching a sufficient understanding of chemistry, medicine or mental health to be able to comment usefully on this topic, but that they're going to anyway.

snollup · 14-03-2013 03:21PM

seamus wrote: »

I've never understood the logic of treating someone who is suicidal with pills which make you think about suicide.

The prescription of SSRI's appears to be one of the most successful marketing con jobs of the modern era, right up there with DeBeers and their diamonds.

Hey seamus, having been taking various antidepressants (inc. SSRI's) during various stages of my life I can say that they are far from a marketing con job.

I am currently recovering from recurrent depression, a bout that has persisted for about 2 years now. Antidepressants have provided me the stability to put in the efforts to do what is need for recovery.

And yes, some people do not react well to certain AD's. It is ironic that a huge number of these types of medications even state on the instructions that they may cause suicidal thoughts but from my understanding this is the case in (only) a small percentage of cases.

In the vast majority of cases (in my experience) people respond very positively to their medications.

I guess all people suffering with mental illness may need the people around us to be aware as best they can to how our moods are. This would be even more the case if only starting a medication or while having our current prescription adjusted.

For me, it was my efforts that got me well but my AD's gave me the stability to start to put in my effort.

Czarcasm · 14-03-2013 03:26PM

Fromthetrees wrote: »

A mother who believes her son was turned into a suicidal killer by the side-effects of antidepressants has lost another family member to suicide while he was also on antidepressants.

Just reading that piece alone, the possibility should be considered that there were other contributing factors which this woman may not have been privy to or taken into account when coming to the conclusion that it must have been the anti-depressants that caused them to commit suicide.

I'm of the opinion that we still don't completely understand the full effects that these drugs can have on people, both short and long term.

These drugs though are prescribed for millions of people around the world who according to overwhelming medical evidence currently available, have found them to be very beneficial as a method of helping them to cope with numerous mental health disorders. There have been long term studies carried out but again these can only be based on medical evidence available at the time. If it were found that the long term effects can include more adverse effects than the solutions they offer to the majority, then I would presume people would be made far more aware of the issues.

I also believe that pills are way over prescribed in this country.

What do ye think?

I'd agree with this alright, as most mental disorder drugs are only quick fix solutions, and that's unfortunately nowadays what most people want, are quick fix solutions to their diagnoses, rather than taking the time and examining the underlying problems that led to their predicament they find themselves in.

In saying that though, I'd sooner see people taught that pills are only a temporary measure to help them cope while the underlying problems are addressed, than see people opt for what they see as the even quicker solution which is committing suicide.

14-03-2013 03:26PM

Was that the lad who killed his ex and her new boyfriend a few years ago?

14-03-2013 03:32PM

When people start quoting opinion pieces, it's downhill from there on.

Anti depressants work, although initially they have some settling in side effects - like many other drugs - with may include an increase in the target symptoms at first.

Sadly some people have committed suicide while (not necessarily because) they're medicated with them, but the number who have experienced a huge improvement in the quality of life, or the lives saved, massively, massively outweigh that number.

We don't know if the suicides had any other factors involved. So lets not point people desperately needing help away from where they're most likely to get it.

Fromthetrees · 14-03-2013 03:35PM

starlings wrote: »

We - laypeople - don't completely understand, of course not. That's why people study this for years before they're qualified to even hypothesise about drugs, let alone create, prescribe and monitor them.

There's over 400,000 people in Ireland today on antidepressants. I think this is way too high of a number and not nearly enough is done to explore why there are so many people being prescribed pills.

starlings wrote: »

The only speculation I'll make is that poor Leonie Farrell is heartbroken and trying desperately to understand what happened to her son.

That kind of sounds like amateur psychologist talk to me. :P

Jimoslimos wrote: »

There's a helluva difference between having an off-period and being clinically depressed.

Also depression ≠ suicidal

I know.

That's probably the main reason why I think GP's over prescribe antidepressants.

eviltwin · 14-03-2013 03:42PM

Dealing with my own depression I have found that doctors are very quick to want to offer meds.

I've nothing against them and know people who have done well on them but personally I think they should be a last resort. I wanted to try out other options, self help, cbt etc but was made to feel by doctors that meds were the only solution.

I'm happy to say I found my salvation in exercise, since I started doing seriously committing to it, I haven't had any depressive episodes. There's no doubt some people wouldn't be here today or be able to funtion without them so we shouldn't dismiss them all but I suppose like anything what works for one person may not be as successful for another.

My advice to anyone with depression is to know your illness, read up on as much as you can about all available treatments and experiment with what works best for you. And if that means taking medication so be it.

seamus · 14-03-2013 03:42PM

snollup wrote: »

Hey seamus, having been taking various antidepressants (inc. SSRI's) during various stages of my life I can say that they are far from a marketing con job.

Actually I don't disagree at all that for many people they can work if they're correctly prescribed and monitored.

The problem is the insane levels of prescription of drugs which in reality should only be used on a relatively small number of people, and prescribed by doctors who may lack the necessary clinical knowledge to correctly assess the patient.

They're right up there with antibiotics as doctors' favourite solution for getting rid of annoying patients.

Madam_X · 14-03-2013 03:56PM

The big pharma conspiracy stuff is boring too - they don't have a chip inserted into every doctor/psychiatrist's brain programming them to make money. Some medical professionals actually do care about treating patients properly! :eek:

sbsquarepants · 14-03-2013 04:06PM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Depression medication - may cause suicidal thoughts.
That's a bit like: Headache pills - may cause massive skullsplitting migraines

I bought eyedrops a while back to try un-bloodshot my eyes after a weekend drinking, read the little leaflet that comes with them -
Common side effects - may cause bloodshot eyes:mad:

Wattle · 14-03-2013 04:09PM

I had some really bad experiences on Prozac which was marketed as a kind of miracle cure-all for depression. Couldn't get off that drug fast enough. In time with trial and error I managed to get the right meds and I take them to this day. The idea of anti-depressants is to give you a floor that you won't plunge through. They can help people function to a basic degree which starts to take their mind off suicidal ideation. I do think phramaceutical companies have quite a bit to answer for i.e. putting doctors under pressure to prescribe pills that may be totally unsuited to a patients needs.

Princess Peach · 14-03-2013 04:17PM

A lot of speculation going on in that article. Who is to say they would still be alive if they hadn't taken medication?

My doctor made it very clear to me what side affects I may suffer when starting on medication and I was given information on what to do if I were to feel worse and suicidal.

For me medication was not a last resort, because I was too far gone by the time I sought help, and change in lifestyle wasn't an option, and counselling, while recommended, would take too long.

Just my experiences anyway!

mcwinning · 14-03-2013 04:18PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Dealing with my own depression I have found that doctors are very quick to want to offer meds.

I've nothing against them and know people who have done well on them but personally I think they should be a last resort. I wanted to try out other options, self help, cbt etc but was made to feel by doctors that meds were the only solution.

I'm happy to say I found my salvation in exercise, since I started doing seriously committing to it, I haven't had any depressive episodes. There's no doubt some people wouldn't be here today or be able to funtion without them so we shouldn't dismiss them all but I suppose like anything what works for one person may not be as successful for another.

My advice to anyone with depression is to know your illness, read up on as much as you can about all available treatments and experiment with what works best for you. And if that means taking medication so be it.

Glad you are doing well now! Exercise is one of the best and most underprescribed treatment of depression.

The ladies loss was awful, but I don't like to see large newspaper reports with personal opinion being presented about medical issues without solid research to support the claim.

Scruffles · 14-03-2013 04:36PM

some users are using SSRI as a collective term for anti depressants,there are a lot more anti depressent classes than that,these all work differently on chemical uptake and have different side effects and some have more interactions with other drugs.
am prescribed a higher than the normal maximum doseage of an SNRI called cymbalta, and without it woud not be here.

the main reason why anti depressents carry a risk of suicidal thought once it starts getting into the system is because the chemicals are slowly balancing,which in some peoples cases makes them get back clear thinking and lose their fatigue but still have the depressive thinking,this means they now have the mental focus to make sense of their thinking and also have the energy to go through with it.

GPs or specialists usualy point out the suicidal risk at the start of a new AD-they dont hide it, however for those of us with severe clinical depression its nothing to what we already contend with and its a chance at gaining our life and our own mind back again.

with the original story,its possible for non violent people to turn into killers from medications.
although its an anti pyschotic;not AD,does no one remember the american lad william freund;
http://murderpedia.org/male.F/f/freund-william.htm
he was an aspie lad newly on geodon; an anti pyschotic for something [cant remember what], had been on the autism spectrum disorder forum he joined at the time where we saw his discent into madness; killed two of his neighbours and himself,poor lad was treated like absolute sht by a load of grammar nazis on the forum and another forum,and neither believed his threats because of his spelling,the parents tried sueing alex plank/owner of the ASD forum for 'not taking it seriously' when they had been doing so behind the scenes.

Victor · 14-03-2013 04:48PM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

My theory on the mechanism of how these drugs may be responsible for an observed increase in suicide.
Q: What do you need to commit suicide?
A: Motivation

Q: What do severely depressed individuals have little of?
A: See answer above

So SSRIs may be effective anti-depressants, but in treating severe depression may be giving motivation to suicidal individuals who previously would not have been able to carry out the act.

Just speculation mind.

I would largely agree with the above. Taking an angry person, who is depressed and incapable and giving them anti-depressants can change them to being an angry, capable person and that may boil over.

Any such medication is only part of the treatment and the person needs to be under supervision, especially when taking them first or changing their dosage.

suicide_circus · 14-03-2013 04:54PM

SSRIs helped me a lot where a mumbo jumbo headshrinker didnt. Probably saved my life actually. Sometimes people need drugs.

General Zod · 14-03-2013 04:55PM

Previously been on lexapro to treat SAD and wouldn't hesitate to go back on them if necessary. Finding things are more managable now using exercise and a lamp.

They are by no means a cakewalk but it's better than the alternative.

Woman: Antidepressants led to suicides of relatives

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