The New Pope!

floggg

I have no interest in joining the Rc Club, or that of any other religion. And I don't care about their private beliefs.

What you're failing to grasp though is that the RCC isn't happy just to believe privately - they want their beliefs to be codified as law. That's when I have a legitimate concern? In the UK, the RCC is one of the most vocal critics of marriage equality. Same in the States and I'm sure many other countries. The also opposed divorce here. They are actively trying to impose their belies on others, so it's the church who refuse to,follow a live and let by approach.

Secondly, you can argue about followers etc (and there are still a significant amount, and even more so in other countries) but you can't argue with money. In the recent state referenda on marriage equality, catholic groups were one of, if not the largest spenders on the no side.

Now, thankfully, they lost those - but the no side had won every state referendum up to that date. You can't argue that the RCC doesn't have any impact on the lives of gay Californians for example.

Lenmeister

Hoboo wrote: »

I think anyone who needs another human in Rome to tell them to respect and love others deserves to live in continual ignorance

Very true, I know many of these unfortunatly. But these are devout catholics and have their bushido. That's just the way it is with many of them.

@TP1969 - "I think it's a mistake to assume that because you, or I , know some people personally that we then extrapolate that across the world." - Well to be honest for me it's only natural to assume when I've travelled around and met so many people from around the world this sort of thing. Plus being closely tied to that sort of community leads me to believe as such. Who knows, it could be a very small number in the end, but I wouldn't think so.

@suicide_circus - Ya I agreethat's true. Don't know much about the Islamic teachings so can't really give my opinion there.

TP1969

suicide_circus wrote: »

The church already teaches love compassion and kindness should be extended to everyone.

I prefer to see what someone does rather than what they say. The same is true for the catholic church.

So, for example, a church which conspired to allow the continuation, by its representatives, of the rape, torture, abuse and brutalisation of the children in its care on the one hand, and on the other hand "teaches love compassion and kindness should be extended to everyone", then I take their pronouncements with a large pinch of salt.

suicide_circus wrote: »

If people really want to alter RCC doctraine they have a far better chance of doing that from within the institution than shouting from the outside.

What a load of nonsense. No "people" have the power to overrule the infallible pronouncements of the pope, whether from inside or outside. To pretend the catholic church is in any way democratic is just untrue.

suicide_circus wrote: »

And, again, why does no one try to exact pressure to alter Islamic teachings in homosexuality?

This thread is about the pope, and there are plenty of critics of Islamic teaching on homosexuality. Should you want to start off a thread about that, I'll gladly point out the Islam has no single authority who dictates to all the worlds Muslims, in the way the pope does.

Hoboo

Suicide Circus (Thats one crazy name:) )

"The church already teaches love compassion and kindness should be extended to everyone".

It does for the most part, but anything which hurts another human being has nothing to do with love or compassion. The RCC excludes GLBTS for a start, and hides child rapists from not only justice, but allows them to continue. It shows zero compassion and kindness to our most vulnerable and weak in society, our children. Voiceless and unable to defend themselves, they are prey to some, and nothing but a problem for the Vatican and a danger to the institution.

The Vatican has thousands of reports collected by Benedict, who took charge of all sexual abuse reports since 2001/2002, yet do nothing but hide them. The only Autocracy in Europe, it hides sexual abuse by exercising diplomatic immunity and its right to self government. Jesus would not be proud. People need to literally see the light. Its a church built by a roman emperor in the name of Jesus, not by Jesus. Its rules were made by man, not Jesus.

It teaches compassion and kindness on the outside..........the RCC like to spread the teachings of Jesus, but in reality practice the complete opposite.

hochiquinn

suicide_circus wrote: »

And, again, why does no one try to exact pressure to alter Islamic teachings in homosexuality?

Or in the Eastern spirtualities like Tibetan Buddhism.

Or the majority of the world's population who see it as immoral, unnatural and disgusting.

Bum "sex" is a distinctly Western, privileged, middle-class phenomenon.

That so many homosexual persons suffer from mental illness and kill themselves; I'd steer well clear.

hochiquinn

TP1969 wrote: »

What a load of nonsense. No "people" have the power to overrule the infallible pronouncements of the pope, whether from inside or outside. To pretend the catholic church is in any way democratic is just untrue.

The church is not democratic. It is the guardian of the truth handed down by Jesus Christ through the apostles. Democratic structures aren't suitable for such an institution. That said, there are however, democratic elements within the church (such as the election of a pontiff). If you have a problem with the church not being "democratic" -- I'm sure there are plenty of snake oil men who'll tell you whatever takes your fancy.

Hoboo

hochiquinn wrote: »

Or in the Eastern spirtualities like Tibetan Buddhism.

Or the majority of the world's population who see it as immoral, unnatural and disgusting.

Bum "sex" is a distinctly Western, privileged, middle-class phenomenon.

That so many homosexual persons suffer from mental illness and kill themselves; I'd steer well clear.

Loving your facts.

Majority of the world ? This from the latest study, conducted in your head ?

The rest of your post is bordering on insane. Find myself laughing, albeit with concern, at your ignorance.

suicide_circus

Why are people bringing paedophilia into this as if there is some connection between the gross mishandling of child abuse cases and the stance on homosexuality?

i really dont understand the obsession with the RCCs stance on homosexuality. If youre not a member of the club, it is irrelevant to you.

Im a non member by the way but i am a libertarian so i am opposed to any person or institution being forced into going against its conscience. Live and let live. Noone is forced to follow the club rules.

TP1969

suicide_circus wrote: »

Why are people bringing paedophilia into this as if there is some connection between the gross mishandling of child abuse cases and the stance on homosexuality?

I have no idea which "people" you mean, but you seem to have not responded to me, as one person, when I challenged your declaration that the catholic church "teaches love compassion and kindness should be extended to everyone".

General responses about "people" are not discussion and make you seem evasive.

Hoboo

suicide_circus wrote: »

Why are people bringing paedophilia into this as if there is some connection between the gross mishandling of child abuse cases and the stance on homosexuality?

i really dont understand the obsession with the RCCs stance on homosexuality. If youre not a member of the club, it is irrelevant to you.

Im a non member by the way but i am a libertarian so i am opposed to any person or institution being forced into going against its conscience. Live and let live. Noone is forced to follow the club rules.

That could have been me, the only connection is its another example of the RCC displaying its complete mistreatment of some groups within society. But yes, slightly off topic. Mea Maxima Culpa

Just so youre aware, if you were baptised then in the eyes of the Vatican youre still one of the 1.2 billion RC's in the world. So you may be a libertarian in your eyes, but if baptised in the RCC youre officially still in the club.

I am a member, but in the process of having my baptism annuled. Just write to your local bishop and they'll do it, your bap cert will be updated and sent to you.

suicide_circus

TP1969 wrote: »

I have no idea which "people" you mean, but you seem to have not responded to me, as one person, when I challenged your declaration that the catholic church "teaches love compassion and kindness should be extended to everyone".

General responses about "people" are not discussion and make you seem evasive.

oh no! Not evasive!

The club teaches love, compassion and kindness. Unfortunately the club's board of management is made up of people who sometimes fail to meet the high standards set by the club founders. People are flawed.

You take the clubs pronouncments with a "pinch of salt". Why do their rules or views have any baring on your life whatsover? What part will the new pope play in your life?

Of course the church isnt democratic. It deals in truth and absolutes (as they see it). No one is under the illusion that it is a democracy and if that bothers anyone, they are free to not participate.

The church is patriarchal, as are most ancient religions, this is their right.

suicide_circus

Hoboo wrote: »

That could have been me, the only connection is its another example of the RCC displaying its complete mistreatment of some groups within society. But yes, slightly off topic. Mea Maxima Culpa

Just so youre aware, if you were baptised then in the eyes of the Vatican youre still one of the 1.2 billion RC's in the world. So you may be a libertarian in your eyes, but if baptised in the RCC youre officially still in the club.

I am a member, but in the process of having my baptism annuled. Just write to your local bishop and they'll do it, your bap cert will be updated and sent to you.

I am aware of this but since i dont allow meaningless pieces of paper to keep me awake at night, i think i'll save the price of a stamp and not write to the bishop.

paulmorro

suicide_circus wrote: »

i really dont understand the obsession with the RCCs stance on homosexuality. If youre not a member of the club, it is irrelevant to you.

The club are a massive political lobby group. I don't give a seconds thought to not being able to be married in a church. I care that they proclaims my acts as being evil to the entire world. (Never mind that that they are the ones who regularly link their paedophaelia issue to homosexuals!)

Lenmeister

suicide_circus wrote: »

I am aware of this but since i dont allow meaningless pieces of paper to keep me awake at night, i think i'll save the price of a stamp and not write to the bishop.

lol had a giggle @ that one

Things will change in Ireland, slowly but surely. Ireland as a whole are slowly accepting gay/lesbian/marriage/abortion etc. Ofcourse if the pope is against it, it won't move things any faster.

suicide_circus

paulmorro wrote: »

The club are a massive political lobby group. I don't give a seconds thought to not being able to be married in a church. I care that they proclaims my acts as being evil to the entire world. (Never mind that that they are the ones who regularly link their paedophaelia issue to homosexuals!)

The modern vatican does not teach that homosexuality is "evil".

TP1969

suicide_circus wrote: »

The club teaches love, compassion and kindness. .

I'm afraid you seem totally un-aware of the "club's" ( as you call it) record of rape, torture, brutalisation, theft and murder across many century's, including recent years. But it says it stands for "love, compassion and kindness", so thats ok then.

In any case, its up to you what you choose to believe, and if you choose to ignroe the facts and choose to believe what they say, that's your perogative.

Simply repeating that they teach "love compassion and kindness" is not an argument, and is avoiding the issue that less and less people find anything which is said by a clutch of hysterical virgins who run this disgraceful organisation in any way relevant to their lives.

crockholm

Seems even to me, RCC don't like LGBTQ, LGBTQ don't like RCC. Everything else is a paradigm shift, e.g. "the rcc oppress us,they are against equality" but to catholic eyes "lgbtq want to destroy the family unit".

I think ne'er the twain shall meet.

Happy st.patricks day/chug-a-lug-a-thon day

TP1969

crockholm wrote: »

Seems even to me, RCC don't like LGBTQ, LGBTQ don't like RCC. Everything else is a paradigm shift, e.g. "the rcc oppress us,they are against equality" but to catholic eyes "lgbtq want to destroy the family unit".

I think ne'er the twain shall meet.

If what you say is true, its more than a little ironic that a church which murdered, tortured and raped and abused on an industrial scale, in nearly every country around the world, should claim another group wants to destroy the family unit.

Presumably, all those people it brutalised, raped, tortured, terrorised and killed were all members of family units.

crockholm

TP1969 wrote: »

If what you say is true, its more than a little ironic that a church which murdered, tortured and raped and abused on an industrial scale, in nearly every country around the world, should claim another group wants to destroy the family unit.

Presumably, all those people it brutalised, raped, tortured, terrorised and killed were all members of family units.

I know what you mean!!!

Myself,my family and everyone I know only barely managed to avoid that holocaust, I can still hear the screams of children when sister brigid consilio made us eat the watercress sandwiches.

O, the humanity!

Anyhow, have a good day today, looking forward to a little whiskey soon:)

Ambersky

suicide_circus said
The modern vatican does not teach that homosexuality is "evil".

Why would you put up a post like this that can so easily be challenged by the briefest of Google searches?

In an unexpected move today, Pope Benedict XVI announced that gays are no longer “intrinsically evil,” but only “somewhat intrinsically evil.” The Pope made what is being heralded in the religious world as a “groundbreaking concession” :rolleyes:

http://www.beyondchron.org/news/index.php?itemid=6759

The current pope francis

From a letter to the Carmelite Sisters of Buenos Aires on the perils of marriage equality:

“Let’s not be naïve, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies (thats just a fancy way of saying its from the devil) that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

ewan whose army

suicide_circus wrote: »

The modern vatican does not teach that homosexuality is "evil".

Why did the former pope say that homosexuality "destroys the essence of the human creature" on his Christmas (of all things) speech.

Annasopra

crockholm wrote: »

Seems even to me, RCC don't like LGBTQ, LGBTQ don't like RCC. Everything else is a paradigm shift, e.g. "the rcc oppress us,they are against equality" but to catholic eyes "lgbtq want to destroy the family unit".

I think ne'er the twain shall meet.

Happy st.patricks day/chug-a-lug-a-thon day

I don't think it's that simple. There are some lgbt people who still say they are Catholic. In fact in London there were Catholic masses happening in Soho for the lgbt community and they closed last month.

paulmorro

suicide_circus wrote: »

The modern vatican does not teach that homosexuality is "evil".

High up members do.

crockholm

mango salsa wrote: »

I don't think it's that simple. There are some lgbt people who still say they are Catholic. In fact in London there were Catholic masses happening in Soho for the lgbt community and they closed last month.

And I guess you could find practicing catholics with pro-lgbt veiws,Gavin Newsome SF Mayor for one. The exception rather than the rule I fear, I don't think there will be a middle ground between both communities/groups.

Annasopra

crockholm wrote: »

And I guess you could find practicing catholics with pro-lgbt veiws,Gavin Newsome SF Mayor for one. The exception rather than the rule I fear, I don't think there will be a middle ground between both communities/groups.

I actually think there is a middle ground from most lay catholics and a large number of priests. It's the hierarchy and the fringes that preach the anti gay rhetoric.

84% of Irish people in the 2011 census defined themselves as Catholic but polls suggest over 70% of the electorate support marriage equality. Mary McAleese and Tony Blair are also both examples of people who are practising catholics and pro lgbt rights.

periodictable

suicide_circus wrote: »

And, again, why does no one try to exact pressure to alter Islamic teachings in homosexuality?

More is expected from the Catholic Church which has been centered in western Europe for 2000 years.
Islam on the other hand has one heck of an evolution to go through, but should be rightly condemned its views on homosexuality. Funny thing is try walking down any street in an Islamic state and you'll be propositioned by other men left right and center.

periodictable

peter barrins wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Nell Mc Cafferty wrote some interesting court reports on gay men before the courts in the 1970s/80s.
Read it.

pragmatic1

Who cares. The RCC are a disgusting organisation. They're in no position to lecture anyone on morality or ethics.

Peregrinus

ewan whose army wrote: »

Why did the former pope say that homosexuality "destroys the essence of the human creature" on his Christmas (of all things) speech.

He's been widely reported as having said this about either homosexuality or about gay marriage. In fact he never said it about either of these things or, as far as I can find, about anything else.

The full address is here: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2012/december/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20121221_auguri-curia_en.html. In the address, he describes gender - the condition of being male or female - as "pertaining to the essence of the human creature", and he rejects the view that maleness or femaleness is something we choose, or that society chooses for us. The word "destroy" does not appear anywhere in the text. You may agree or disagree with his view, but I struggle to see it as inherently anti-gay. It's about gender, not about orientation. If you insiston reading it as a comment about sexual orientation then, if anything, it's rather at odds with the view, current in some fundamentalist circles in the US, that being gay is a "choice".

simon0brien

floggg wrote: »

I don't. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.

As long as catholic priests and the catholic community as a whole is happy to sit back and allow their hierarchy spout the nonsense they do about the LGBT community, about women, about contraception and condom use, and refuse to demand accountability for things like child abuse, then they have to accept guilt by association.

All of these things are done in their name.

If they want respect, then they should stand up and publicly reject these things, not sit there in silence when these things are said and done.

I say this as somebody with a relative in the priesthood who was very supportive of me when he found out I was gay. Until he denounces the hatred spewed from the Vatican from the pulpit though, his comforting private words aren't really doing much good to the world.

Do you have faith outside religion??