The New Pope!

i_steal_sheep

No great surprise that this new man, Pope Francis I, is going to be no different to what's come before him in terms of his attitude towards same sex marriage. I know, in fairness, he may have his positive attributes but I was hoping that the conclave may have elected someone who would be a little more inclusive.

John Paul II was a gas man with his religion-a-la-carte, it's just a pity that they don't recognise the same thing in themselves as leaders of the church.

Beruthiel

i_steal_sheep wrote: »

I was hoping that the conclave may have elected someone who would be a little more inclusive.

I very much doubt that there was one man in that conclave that holds a more inclusive view towards gay people.
Or, if one did, he would most certainly keep that thought to himself.
Frankie believes gay marriage to be the work of Satan.
If he can do more damage to the RCC that will be fine by me.

TwoShedsJackson

I never get why people think, or even hope, that a new Pope is going to be more inclusive or progressive than the last one. You don't get to be Pope without fitting the reactionary mold firmly, and the previous two Popes had in any event stacked the cardinals so that it was guaranteed another conservative would be elected.

i_steal_sheep

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

I never get why people think, or even hope, that a new Pope is going to be more inclusive or progressive than the last one. You don't get to be Pope without fitting the reactionary mold firmly, and the previous two Popes had in any event stacked the cardinals so that it was guaranteed another conservative would be elected.

I never for a second thought we were going to get a more progressive one, but a more inclusive one would do the job. Deus Caritas Est / God is Love - isn't the whole premise of the bible?

periodictable

This is what he thinks of us

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/13/pope-francis-gay-marriage-anti_n_2869221.html

Annasopra

Obviously his views on social matters are disappointing but his views on economic issues are hopeful and progressive


"Human rights are not only violated by terrorism, repression or assassination, but also by unfair economic structures that creates huge inequalities." Archbishop Jorge Mario Bergoglio (Pope Francis I)

mr.anonymous

Having a progressive Pope would be like having a black man in charge of the KKK.

I have no respect for religious institutions or beliefs! This is nothing to be hopeful about at all. I wish it wasn't such a big news story.

1ZRed

Just a new king of the pedos tbh

Caiseoipe19

1ZRed wrote: »

Just a new king of the pedos tbh

Great input there, as usual. You're absolutely hilarious. Grow up like a good lad.

Annasopra

1ZRed wrote: »

Just a new king of the pedos tbh

It is very clear and obvious that a large number of LGBT people are not religious. However, this does not justify calling all priests paedos. Don't do it again. As always I don't respond to moderation on thread and if you have any issues PM me.

LegacyUser

1ZRed wrote: »

Just a new king of the pedos tbh

Not all clergy are 'pedos' in fact I know some who don't share the same views as the pope regarding gay marriage,adoption.Nice to see you make that sweeping generalization when the 'pedo' brush is often targeted at ourselves- the gay male community,while we are it we all have HIV,sex mad 100% promiscous etc etc

1ZRed

Cygnus wrote: »

Great input there, as usual. You're absolutely hilarious. Grow up like a good lad.

Condescension is a great way of getting anyone to do anything

Annasopra

1zred, Cygnus - take your discussion to PM

i_steal_sheep

1ZRed wrote: »

Just a new king of the pedos tbh

Is it not possible to have a bit of a discussion about the new Pope and the Church without going 'there'? I'm not particularly religious but I do have a lot of respect for the many many good men who are within the priesthood.

floggg

i_steal_sheep wrote: »

Is it not possible to have a bit of a discussion about the new Pope and the Church without going 'there'? I'm not particularly religious but I do have a lot of respect for the many many good men who are within the priesthood.

I don't. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.

As long as catholic priests and the catholic community as a whole is happy to sit back and allow their hierarchy spout the nonsense they do about the LGBT community, about women, about contraception and condom use, and refuse to demand accountability for things like child abuse, then they have to accept guilt by association.

All of these things are done in their name.

If they want respect, then they should stand up and publicly reject these things, not sit there in silence when these things are said and done.

I say this as somebody with a relative in the priesthood who was very supportive of me when he found out I was gay. Until he denounces the hatred spewed from the Vatican from the pulpit though, his comforting private words aren't really doing much good to the world.

Annasopra

floggg wrote: »

his comforting private words aren't really doing much good to the world.

If you took comfort from them then I would argue in a sense they are

1ZRed

Technically I never made one mention to all priests being pedos, ye came to that conclusion all on your own.

There are enough harboured and protected within the church to be king of them. I don't believe all priests are pedos by any stretch but there is far more under the surface and what they did was criminal in protecting the priests who abused children or anyone else.

Until they stand up to it, take the punishment for what they did, and continue to do, then I'll show them no respect and I'll think nothing of making casual comments like that.

Tbh, even if they did own up to it why would I show that organisation any such respect for the oppression and ideals they've pushed freely without any remorse over the centuries?

floggg

mango salsa wrote: »

If you took comfort from them then I would argue in a sense they are

I didn't personally, as I was long past the stage where I needed affirmation from people about this. Particularly a catholic priest.

While I did appreciate the sentiment and know it to be genuine, at the same time I found it a bit disingenuous for him to want to assure me I had his support and that he sympathised with any difficulties I faced when many of the difficulties and obstacles faced are fostered, supported and/or condoned by the very organisation he has dedicated his life's work to.

If the Catholic Church and other religious bodies decided to stop opposing equality (never mind pushing for it), I may well not need his support or sympathies.

And I don't think it's really all that helpful to the world at large to convey these sentiments privately yet every week preach the authority and infallibility of a man who calls me intrinsically disordered and describes my wish to be have my relationship recognised by the state as the work of the devil.

I don't think those private words are going to do much good to a confused teen or young adult in the pews every week whose lead to believe there's something wrong with him and who may be scared to reveal himself out of fear of rejection.

How will we ever know my uncle says nice things in private if in public he gives tacit support (through silence) to hateful and hurtful messages from Rome? Why would he ever reveal himself to my uncle?

If Christians want respect on this issue, then they need to stand up and be counted.

Annasopra

1ZRed wrote: »

I'll think nothing of making casual comments like that.

You won't be making casual comments like that in this forum

1ZRed

Of course not because this forum is wrapped in cotton wool where you can't say anything for the fear of god you may offend some overly sensitive person.

ifeelgood

I have to say I know priests that having affairs with women and that are gay. I'm completely fine with this because they are just human, but the hypocrisy is just unreal.

1ZRed

ifeelgood wrote: »

I have to say I know priests that having affairs with women and that are gay. I'm completely fine with this because they are just human, but the hypocrisy is just unreal.

Ha! though I don't know of any gay priests, bar hearing from relatives of one that used to bring the lads swimming and made the girls sit on his lap and give him a kiss and gave off "vibes", our old parish priest was well known for being with this "house keeper".

I wouldn't care at all except he was a man who loved to preach christian values he didn't follow and would give out about not getting enough money.
A joke he was in every single way.

peter barrins

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peter barrins

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peter barrins

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Phareon

Just to point out that he's just Pope Francis, not Pope Francis 'I'.
There's been an official statement and everything: http://www.latimes.com/news/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-vatican-pope-francis-name-20130313,0,1309501.story

cartell_best

It has been what? 500/600 years since the last Pope resigned? Has anybody here realised that it is possible a backlash has begun (be it baby steps) within the Catholic church?. The leader of a religious institution that leads 1.2 billion people does not resign from said position, just purely out of "not being able to give enough energy". We did witness history in the making! Take it as you want, but I believe that there is a lot going on in the background, that we will not know about at this moment in time.

Pope Benedict did not see a way forward, stuck with his thoughts and beliefs structured by a book created 2,000 years ago, but only see's the work in Progress that has been changed, manipulated and edited to suit an institution that promotes its "owner" as a vengeful, spiteful person, rapidly needing change and for f**kin once, realising people are sick and tired of hearing about hate, fear and all that negativity that the "Catholic" church has instilled in people. Pope Benedict was a victim of what is the political world, he did not meet the requirements for growth and FAITH, to allow an organisation to grow and expand. He could not have continued to be the CEO of an institution that was losing millions of investors at an unprecedented scale. Forgive me, I had to use an analogy that makes some kind of sense in this age of finance and politics, with the latter being the major factor within the church. Times are changing, and as with any institution and business, it has to change and realise that a significant percentage of his staff not only want, but need change....otherwise its destiny will be nothing more than mere mythology in 100 years time.

floggg

peter barrins wrote: »

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Thanks, I needed a good laugh!

Gays obsessed with the Catholic Church?

That's right, because its the gays who have said that has spent millions in trying to prevent the Catholic Church having equal rights, who argued against the decriminalisation of Catholicism, who have said that catholic relationships undermine the fabric of society, and generally stick their oar in every time catholics try to obtain progress or equality. It's the gays who continually try to impose themselves into the bedroom and family life of catholic priests and others, and whose preaching and hatred has lead to the isolation, rejection and in some case deaths of young teens.

No, wait - isn't it the other way around?

The ignorance and lack of awareness in that post is astounding.

peter barrins

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floggg

peter barrins wrote: »

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I'm sorry, but are you willfully not getting it or just deluded? The Catholic Church is the one obsessing over gays and gay issues and does its best to promote discrimination.

A gay man highlighting its discriminatory and harmful messages and teachings isn't obsession - it's self preservation.

How you think an institution that publicly denounces me as intrinsically disordered or my relationships as a threat to civilisation deserves my respect is truly beyond me, and if you think the LGBT community is the one with an irrational obsession with the Catholic Church and not the other way around, I suggest you educate yourself or seek help.

periodictable

Well said Floggg- here's another of dear Frankie's comments:

http://www.queerty.com/pope-francis-i-same-sex-marriage-is-a-machination-of-the-father-of-lies-20130313/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Queerty%20Active&utm_campaign=Queerty%20Daily%20Newsletter

Anyone that could support the person who makes such a statement has severe self-esteem issues.

TP1969

Why does anyone care what the Pope thinks, other than those who choose to follow his church. Personally I don't care a jot what he does or does not think, and am curious to know why so many seem to become exercised by a man who wears gold dresses and claims to be infallible.

No one cares what he thinks on contraception, or on what his views are on whether or not we should drink coca cola, and for the head of a church which has a pretty disgusting history of rape, torture, abuse and murder, why anyone should care what he thinks about anything, let alone on personal or moral issues, seems bizarre.

Irish Aris

It's not just about what the Pope thinks, it's about the whole aspect that the Church (Catholic or any other for that matter) holds for gay people.
I have gay friends that are very religious and want to play an active part on it, but the two don't combine very well together, because the church doesn't welcome them. That's why for me the two were always separated in my mind: I am a Christian Orthodox, I believe in God but I wouldn't go to church very regularly.

floggg

TP1969 wrote: »

Why does anyone care what the Pope thinks, other than those who choose to follow his church. Personally I don't care a jot what he does or does not think, and am curious to know why so many seem to become exercised by a man who wears gold dresses and claims to be infallible.

No one cares what he thinks on contraception, or on what his views are on whether or not we should drink coca cola, and for the head of a church which has a pretty disgusting history of rape, torture, abuse and murder, why anyone should care what he thinks about anything, let alone on personal or moral issues, seems bizarre.

If it was a case of an old man in a silly hat making offensive statements nobody would care.

Unfortunately it's a case of an old man in a silly hat overseeing millions upon being millions spent world wide to combats LGBT rights and equality, who is attempting to, and to a certain degree succeeding, mobilise millions of supporters to exert political pressure to oppose movements towards equality, who at a minimum turns a blind eye to the support being given by members of his organisation to draconian laws in Africa and other places criminalising homosexuality and homosexual relations and who personally and vicariously preaches a message which is harmful to LGBT youths and increases the risk of their rejection or worse by their families.

So while I personally don't really care one way or the other what the RCC wants to do or believe, once they start trying to impose those beliefs on others I think it is a matter of concern for everybody who believes in tolerance and equality.

And same goes for issues like women's rights, contraception and HIV prevention too, and any other area the CC causes harm.

TP1969

floggg wrote: »

If it was a case of an old man in a silly hat making offensive statements nobody would care.

Unfortunately it's a case of an old man in a silly hat overseeing millions upon being millions spent world wide to combats LGBT rights and equality, who is attempting to, and to a certain degree succeeding, mobilise millions of supporters to exert political pressure to oppose movements towards equality, who at a minimum turns a blind eye to the support being given by members of his organisation to draconian laws in Africa and other places criminalising homosexuality and homosexual relations and who personally and vicariously preaches a message which is harmful to LGBT youths and increases the risk of their rejection or worse by their families.

And same goes for issues like women's rights, contraception and HIV prevention too, and any other area the CC causes harm.

I don't know anyonw who believes what he says about contraception, women's rights, or on any issue. If he wants to spend his money in the ways which you suggest, its a free society and he is free to do so. The mistake is to take him seriously, Not many of the billion catholics the RC church likes to boast about listen to him on views like women's rights, abortion, contraception or homosexuality, so why should any of the rest of us?

My view is that the more publicity we give these sinister virgins with their hideous views, the more we encourage them.

peter barrins

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peter barrins

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Annasopra

peter barrins wrote: »

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It's not about the Church or Pope not suiting lifestyles!!!!!!! It's about when the Church and Pope actively use their influence to block our rights.

peter barrins

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Irish Aris

peter barrins wrote: »

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And there are many people in Ireland and elsewhere with no religious beliefs who view gay marriage as a right. . . and might dismiss your point of view as meaningless.

peter barrins

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Irish Aris

peter barrins wrote: »

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(I am a foreigner, so correct me if I am wrong)
In Ireland, 20 years ago you were going to jail if you were gay.
For the last couple of years, Ireland has the Civil Partnership for same-sex couples.
Eventually, we will reach the state of gay marriage.

The world progresses. . .

peter barrins

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DazMarz

Whatever about going to jail or whatever; the law was not enforced as it was, to a point, pretty un-enforceable. But the fact of the matter is, that until 1993, homosexuality was illegal in the Republic Of Ireland.

Condoms and contraceptives (aka, "The Tools of the Devil") were also illegal or unable to be obtained without a doctor's prescription until not long before that (Virgin Megastore on the Quays in Dublin was nearly closed down because they sold condoms over the counter, "illegally" and without prescriptions).

Divorce was illegal in the Republic of Ireland until 1995.

While only the first one truly applies to only LGBT people, the others had a long-lasting effect upon the whole of society (producing larger than sustainable families and countless unhappy homes/marriages).

Why were these laws in place? The Roman Catholic Church and the terrible grip it held on Irish society. Slowly but surely, the stranglehold and yoke of Catholic tyranny is being lifted and society is becoming much more liberal and progressive.

Just to show how stupid and backward these laws were, just think of your reaction if you were told that condoms and contraceptives were to be re-criminalised tomorrow. You'd laugh at first, then be flabbergasted and outraged at such a thing. Ditto divorce, and (for most people) ditto if homosexuality was re-criminalised. These laws make no sense and it's only right that they were removed.

The Roman Catholic Church has one helluva lot to answer for in terms of Irish history and the overwhelmingly negative effects it has had upon Ireland. No other organisation in no other country so successfully, and for so long, kept a people under the heel of a boot. And through the use (or abuse) of power, fear, ignorance, prejudice and disinformation. They controlled all the locks and they held all the keys. Until finally the Irish people decided enough was enough and started to claim back their society.

The stains left on the Irish psyche by the Roman Catholic Church will not be removed in our lifetime. There are still many scars and wounds there and it will take generations for them to be truly healed. For shame.

wonderfulname

peter barrins wrote: »

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Please, tell me more about this agenda.

Lenmeister

TP1969 wrote: »

Why does anyone care what the Pope thinks, other than those who choose to follow his church. Personally I don't care a jot what he does or does not think, and am curious to know why so many seem to become exercised by a man who wears gold dresses and claims to be infallible.

No one cares what he thinks on contraception, or on what his views are on whether or not we should drink coca cola, and for the head of a church which has a pretty disgusting history of rape, torture, abuse and murder, why anyone should care what he thinks about anything, let alone on personal or moral issues, seems bizarre.

That's one of the most rediculous things I've read on boards. How unworldy of you to say something like that. For a start the pope does not claim to be infallible, only in a certain sense of the word - relating to the teachings of God etc. He does not know all see all etc. And how can you not see how the pope affects so many people?

Example - What he says and does is taken as creed by millions around the world. When he declares something as morally bad etc, millions of people accept it. That means that if you have a politician in government, he will think "ok Ireland is predominantly catholic, so I will grab tons of votes by preaching what the pope preaches, I will look a good man to the people this way". Then he gets power by being on the popes side and whatever the pope teaches, gets put into place in Ireland by his good Irish friend in politics because the people want it and know he can give it to them. The politicians use the weight of the popes words to gain power and bring certain laws into Ireland.

Another example related to this forum - The pope says "Being homosexual is wrong in many ways and people who are gay should be ashamed, it has no place in society". Take your average Joe that goes to mass regularly and trusts in the popes teachings. What if half of this guys friends are gay/lesbian. Is he suddenly going to cut his long time good friends out of his life because the pope says so? Some people would have no problem doing that, but is it right to do that? What kind of a person and friend are you if you do? Some people just couldn't do that, but does that make them blasphemous to the pope, God, his teachings, and in essence not a true catholic? It causes problems in every level of society.

Those are just 2 examples of the weight what the pope thinks and how it affects our lives. I hope now you see why people are so concerned. And frankly to be honest, I found your post a little childish. What the pope says and does has a domino effect everywhere, dont be so foolish to dismiss someone with so much power so quickly. Not having a go at you, but I thought your post could have used a little more thought.

hochiquinn

i_steal_sheep wrote: »

No great surprise that this new man, Pope Francis I, is going to be no different to what's come before him in terms of his attitude towards same sex marriage. I know, in fairness, he may have his positive attributes but I was hoping that the conclave may have elected someone who would be a little more inclusive.

Honestly, what did you expect? The catholic church aren't going to approve buggery to suit a couple of mardi gras types. The church has more important things to be worrying about: like helping the poor. Homosexuality is a distinctly Western, first world phenomenon -- a region that is only too happy to turn its back on the church.

TP1969

Lenmeister wrote: »

Example - What he says and does is taken as creed by millions around the world. When he declares something as morally bad etc, millions of people accept it.

Certainly the catholic church likes to boast about the billion members it has. However, I think you are a little out of date to reach your conclusion.

The fact that I don't know anyone who follows their instructions on, for example, contraception, is a case in point. You may choose to believe that millions around the world don't use contraception not because they choose not to, or because they can't afford it or have no access to it, but because a clutch of sinister old virgins tell them not to.

The world has moved a very long way from the time when if you disagreed with the pope he could put you to death. We have reached a point where no longer can the pope's representatives in Ireland, and around the world, control people from their pulpits, terrify whole communities, and rape, brutalise and torture others with impunity.

My experience is now that there are a few who say they continue to believe the pope, but the vast majority now treat the office as one of a historical curiousity, and of little relevance to them or their families or lives. While some of those will be amongst the billion the catholic church likes to boast about, it's power as an institution has been, thankfully, greatly diminished both in Ireland and around the world.

Given the churches disgraceful history of rape, torture, murder and theft, I welcome that, and look forward to a time when we all stop talking about him, and see him for what he is, a man in gold dresses representing a clutch of sinister virgins who preach hatred and nastiness and who have little relevance to virtually anyone outside those few true believers which are left in the rump of the catholic church.

The fact is millions of those who say they are catholic virtually ignore the pope, and get on with their lives without much interference to or from him. I welcome that, and welcome that every day that number is growing.

Annasopra

hochiquinn wrote: »

Honestly, what did you expect? The catholic church aren't going to approve buggery to suit a couple of mardi gras types. The church has more important things to be worrying about: like helping the poor. Homosexuality is a distinctly Western, first world phenomenon -- a region that is only too happy to turn its back on the church.

If you're going troll. Don't. Do it somewhere else.

Hoboo

As a straight, now ex Catholic, this is something I dont get, and I hope I dont insult anyone cause I really dont intend to.

Why would anyone who is LGBTS want to be part of the Catholic Church ? The RCC have clearly set out their stall. The rules are the rules, if you dont like them then dont join the club.

I think their discriminatory rules, not to mention their continual cover up of child rape is absolutely disgusting. But thats the RCC.

If anything, I would have less respect than I already have if they changed their rules to suit society, they are what they are, an ancient cult which relies on ignorance to survive. The continual decline in support in Western Europe, and simultaneous increase in support in Africa and South America is testament to this. Control the education you control the minds.


I see all religions as clubs. They have directors, managers, team members, supporters. They have rules. So why join a club where the rules discriminate, and stranger still, why try to change the rules so you can join the discriminatory club.

OK, so lets say the RCC changed their rules and allowed same sex marriage for instance...........would you want to get married knowing a large number (impossible to guess figures) of their leaders dont agree. Its non-sensical.


So back to my question. Why try to change something to suit society, rather than distance yourself? If anything, I think Jesus has my back for saying no thanks.

Think its time for me to start the church of love, everyone welcome, everyone equal.