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The New Pope!
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Well said Floggg- here's another of dear Frankie's comments:
http://www.queerty.com/pope-francis-i-same-sex-marriage-is-a-machination-of-the-father-of-lies-20130313/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Queerty%20Active&utm_campaign=Queerty%20Daily%20Newsletter
Anyone that could support the person who makes such a statement has severe self-esteem issues.0 -
Why does anyone care what the Pope thinks, other than those who choose to follow his church. Personally I don't care a jot what he does or does not think, and am curious to know why so many seem to become exercised by a man who wears gold dresses and claims to be infallible.
No one cares what he thinks on contraception, or on what his views are on whether or not we should drink coca cola, and for the head of a church which has a pretty disgusting history of rape, torture, abuse and murder, why anyone should care what he thinks about anything, let alone on personal or moral issues, seems bizarre.0 -
It's not just about what the Pope thinks, it's about the whole aspect that the Church (Catholic or any other for that matter) holds for gay people.
I have gay friends that are very religious and want to play an active part on it, but the two don't combine very well together, because the church doesn't welcome them. That's why for me the two were always separated in my mind: I am a Christian Orthodox, I believe in God but I wouldn't go to church very regularly.0 -
Why does anyone care what the Pope thinks, other than those who choose to follow his church. Personally I don't care a jot what he does or does not think, and am curious to know why so many seem to become exercised by a man who wears gold dresses and claims to be infallible.
No one cares what he thinks on contraception, or on what his views are on whether or not we should drink coca cola, and for the head of a church which has a pretty disgusting history of rape, torture, abuse and murder, why anyone should care what he thinks about anything, let alone on personal or moral issues, seems bizarre.
If it was a case of an old man in a silly hat making offensive statements nobody would care.
Unfortunately it's a case of an old man in a silly hat overseeing millions upon being millions spent world wide to combats LGBT rights and equality, who is attempting to, and to a certain degree succeeding, mobilise millions of supporters to exert political pressure to oppose movements towards equality, who at a minimum turns a blind eye to the support being given by members of his organisation to draconian laws in Africa and other places criminalising homosexuality and homosexual relations and who personally and vicariously preaches a message which is harmful to LGBT youths and increases the risk of their rejection or worse by their families.
So while I personally don't really care one way or the other what the RCC wants to do or believe, once they start trying to impose those beliefs on others I think it is a matter of concern for everybody who believes in tolerance and equality.
And same goes for issues like women's rights, contraception and HIV prevention too, and any other area the CC causes harm.0 -
If it was a case of an old man in a silly hat making offensive statements nobody would care.
Unfortunately it's a case of an old man in a silly hat overseeing millions upon being millions spent world wide to combats LGBT rights and equality, who is attempting to, and to a certain degree succeeding, mobilise millions of supporters to exert political pressure to oppose movements towards equality, who at a minimum turns a blind eye to the support being given by members of his organisation to draconian laws in Africa and other places criminalising homosexuality and homosexual relations and who personally and vicariously preaches a message which is harmful to LGBT youths and increases the risk of their rejection or worse by their families.
And same goes for issues like women's rights, contraception and HIV prevention too, and any other area the CC causes harm.
I don't know anyonw who believes what he says about contraception, women's rights, or on any issue. If he wants to spend his money in the ways which you suggest, its a free society and he is free to do so. The mistake is to take him seriously, Not many of the billion catholics the RC church likes to boast about listen to him on views like women's rights, abortion, contraception or homosexuality, so why should any of the rest of us?
My view is that the more publicity we give these sinister virgins with their hideous views, the more we encourage them.0 -
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peter barrins wrote: »This post has been deleted.
It's not about the Church or Pope not suiting lifestyles!!!!!!! It's about when the Church and Pope actively use their influence to block our rights.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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peter barrins wrote: »This post has been deleted.
And there are many people in Ireland and elsewhere with no religious beliefs who view gay marriage as a right. . . and might dismiss your point of view as meaningless.0 -
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peter barrins wrote: »This post has been deleted.
(I am a foreigner, so correct me if I am wrong)
In Ireland, 20 years ago you were going to jail if you were gay.
For the last couple of years, Ireland has the Civil Partnership for same-sex couples.
Eventually, we will reach the state of gay marriage.
The world progresses. . .0 -
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Whatever about going to jail or whatever; the law was not enforced as it was, to a point, pretty un-enforceable. But the fact of the matter is, that until 1993, homosexuality was illegal in the Republic Of Ireland.
Condoms and contraceptives (aka, "The Tools of the Devil") were also illegal or unable to be obtained without a doctor's prescription until not long before that (Virgin Megastore on the Quays in Dublin was nearly closed down because they sold condoms over the counter, "illegally" and without prescriptions).
Divorce was illegal in the Republic of Ireland until 1995.
While only the first one truly applies to only LGBT people, the others had a long-lasting effect upon the whole of society (producing larger than sustainable families and countless unhappy homes/marriages).
Why were these laws in place? The Roman Catholic Church and the terrible grip it held on Irish society. Slowly but surely, the stranglehold and yoke of Catholic tyranny is being lifted and society is becoming much more liberal and progressive.
Just to show how stupid and backward these laws were, just think of your reaction if you were told that condoms and contraceptives were to be re-criminalised tomorrow. You'd laugh at first, then be flabbergasted and outraged at such a thing. Ditto divorce, and (for most people) ditto if homosexuality was re-criminalised. These laws make no sense and it's only right that they were removed.
The Roman Catholic Church has one helluva lot to answer for in terms of Irish history and the overwhelmingly negative effects it has had upon Ireland. No other organisation in no other country so successfully, and for so long, kept a people under the heel of a boot. And through the use (or abuse) of power, fear, ignorance, prejudice and disinformation. They controlled all the locks and they held all the keys. Until finally the Irish people decided enough was enough and started to claim back their society.
The stains left on the Irish psyche by the Roman Catholic Church will not be removed in our lifetime. There are still many scars and wounds there and it will take generations for them to be truly healed. For shame.0 -
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Why does anyone care what the Pope thinks, other than those who choose to follow his church. Personally I don't care a jot what he does or does not think, and am curious to know why so many seem to become exercised by a man who wears gold dresses and claims to be infallible.
No one cares what he thinks on contraception, or on what his views are on whether or not we should drink coca cola, and for the head of a church which has a pretty disgusting history of rape, torture, abuse and murder, why anyone should care what he thinks about anything, let alone on personal or moral issues, seems bizarre.
That's one of the most rediculous things I've read on boards. How unworldy of you to say something like that. For a start the pope does not claim to be infallible, only in a certain sense of the word - relating to the teachings of God etc. He does not know all see all etc. And how can you not see how the pope affects so many people?
Example - What he says and does is taken as creed by millions around the world. When he declares something as morally bad etc, millions of people accept it. That means that if you have a politician in government, he will think "ok Ireland is predominantly catholic, so I will grab tons of votes by preaching what the pope preaches, I will look a good man to the people this way". Then he gets power by being on the popes side and whatever the pope teaches, gets put into place in Ireland by his good Irish friend in politics because the people want it and know he can give it to them. The politicians use the weight of the popes words to gain power and bring certain laws into Ireland.
Another example related to this forum - The pope says "Being homosexual is wrong in many ways and people who are gay should be ashamed, it has no place in society". Take your average Joe that goes to mass regularly and trusts in the popes teachings. What if half of this guys friends are gay/lesbian. Is he suddenly going to cut his long time good friends out of his life because the pope says so? Some people would have no problem doing that, but is it right to do that? What kind of a person and friend are you if you do? Some people just couldn't do that, but does that make them blasphemous to the pope, God, his teachings, and in essence not a true catholic? It causes problems in every level of society.
Those are just 2 examples of the weight what the pope thinks and how it affects our lives. I hope now you see why people are so concerned. And frankly to be honest, I found your post a little childish. What the pope says and does has a domino effect everywhere, dont be so foolish to dismiss someone with so much power so quickly. Not having a go at you, but I thought your post could have used a little more thought.0 -
i_steal_sheep wrote: »No great surprise that this new man, Pope Francis I, is going to be no different to what's come before him in terms of his attitude towards same sex marriage. I know, in fairness, he may have his positive attributes but I was hoping that the conclave may have elected someone who would be a little more inclusive.
Honestly, what did you expect? The catholic church aren't going to approve buggery to suit a couple of mardi gras types. The church has more important things to be worrying about: like helping the poor. Homosexuality is a distinctly Western, first world phenomenon -- a region that is only too happy to turn its back on the church.0 -
Lenmeister wrote: »
Example - What he says and does is taken as creed by millions around the world. When he declares something as morally bad etc, millions of people accept it.
Certainly the catholic church likes to boast about the billion members it has. However, I think you are a little out of date to reach your conclusion.
The fact that I don't know anyone who follows their instructions on, for example, contraception, is a case in point. You may choose to believe that millions around the world don't use contraception not because they choose not to, or because they can't afford it or have no access to it, but because a clutch of sinister old virgins tell them not to.
The world has moved a very long way from the time when if you disagreed with the pope he could put you to death. We have reached a point where no longer can the pope's representatives in Ireland, and around the world, control people from their pulpits, terrify whole communities, and rape, brutalise and torture others with impunity.
My experience is now that there are a few who say they continue to believe the pope, but the vast majority now treat the office as one of a historical curiousity, and of little relevance to them or their families or lives. While some of those will be amongst the billion the catholic church likes to boast about, it's power as an institution has been, thankfully, greatly diminished both in Ireland and around the world.
Given the churches disgraceful history of rape, torture, murder and theft, I welcome that, and look forward to a time when we all stop talking about him, and see him for what he is, a man in gold dresses representing a clutch of sinister virgins who preach hatred and nastiness and who have little relevance to virtually anyone outside those few true believers which are left in the rump of the catholic church.
The fact is millions of those who say they are catholic virtually ignore the pope, and get on with their lives without much interference to or from him. I welcome that, and welcome that every day that number is growing.0 -
hochiquinn wrote: »Honestly, what did you expect? The catholic church aren't going to approve buggery to suit a couple of mardi gras types. The church has more important things to be worrying about: like helping the poor. Homosexuality is a distinctly Western, first world phenomenon -- a region that is only too happy to turn its back on the church.
If you're going troll. Don't. Do it somewhere else.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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As a straight, now ex Catholic, this is something I dont get, and I hope I dont insult anyone cause I really dont intend to.
Why would anyone who is LGBTS want to be part of the Catholic Church ? The RCC have clearly set out their stall. The rules are the rules, if you dont like them then dont join the club.
I think their discriminatory rules, not to mention their continual cover up of child rape is absolutely disgusting. But thats the RCC.
If anything, I would have less respect than I already have if they changed their rules to suit society, they are what they are, an ancient cult which relies on ignorance to survive. The continual decline in support in Western Europe, and simultaneous increase in support in Africa and South America is testament to this. Control the education you control the minds.
I see all religions as clubs. They have directors, managers, team members, supporters. They have rules. So why join a club where the rules discriminate, and stranger still, why try to change the rules so you can join the discriminatory club.
OK, so lets say the RCC changed their rules and allowed same sex marriage for instance...........would you want to get married knowing a large number (impossible to guess figures) of their leaders dont agree. Its non-sensical.
So back to my question. Why try to change something to suit society, rather than distance yourself? If anything, I think Jesus has my back for saying no thanks.
Think its time for me to start the church of love, everyone welcome, everyone equal.0 -
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"Homosexuality is a distinctly Western, first world phenomenon"
This has to be someone fishing ?0 -
The continual decline in support in Western Europe, and simultaneous increase in support in Africa and South America is testament to this. Control the education you control the minds.
As someone who travels fairly regularly in Africa, and who has been to South America, I just don't see the increase in support there that you claim. For example, in Africa the near hysteria of the western press over the whole papacy in recent times just wasn't evident. The catholic church is now, rightly, the subject of just as much ridicule and scathing criticism in Africa as it is in Europe.
I keep hearing that the catholic church is growing in africa and south america, but the evidence for that seems patchy at best.0 -
Ofcourse there isn't 1 billion catholics. There may be that amount of people baptised catholic, but obviously you're right in saying a lot of them couldn't care less. However, there is still a massive number who do believe everything he says. I don't believe there are many people not using contraception either. But there are still a large number out there and I do know of quite a few with varying ages. Most with the no sex before marriage mindframe.
You mention in your experience about these things, I would imagine msot of my friends have an experience if not the same, very similar to yours, but my experience is quite different. I know a vast amount of people still very much adhearing to the pope and the church. Is your experience only in Ireland? Mine is in many a place. And there are many communities where the pope and church teachings are creed, all around the world. Even if you cut that 1 billion to 100 million church goers and followers. then slash it again and again. Eventually you're still going to have a huge number of people that follow, that adhere, that obey and don't question. Out of 1 billion supposed catholics, are you telling me that there may be only 100 people that will do as he says? I don't think so. People follow him for varying reasons. Maybe they're scared of hell. Maybe they were brought up strict. Maybe they will think they're way down the list of Gods people if they don't do exactly as the pope says. Maybe they will consider themselves hugely immoral by disobeying. Maybe God is their hero. It doesn't matter what the reasons.
My opinion is not out of date, I am not foolish enough to think there are 1 billion practising church going commandment abiding and God living catholics, far from it. And I am well aware of the history of the church. I agree with what you have said in what they have done, but the fact of the matter is the church has not lost as much power as you think, albeit still a lot. They did have a stranglehold on much of Europe at one point in time, but that time has long since passed. I was also baptised catholic, but do not adhere to any of it's doctrine. I am fiercely resentful of much to do with the church, so I agree with much of what you say, but not that the pope has no influence, that's rediculous tbh. And yes I am well aware that as time goes on the church will have less influence because times change and the people will get what they want. Their views are not what the majority of the world wants right now.
@hochiquinn - What do you mean "Homosexuality is a distinctly Western, first world phenomenon"? You do realise it's an ancient practice all down through history right? Unless I'm missing something.
Edit: I didn't see you posted again about traveling regularly in africa. I'd agree about Africa, not so sure about South America. Though I'm sure you'd know more than I as I've never been to either.0 -
Agree.As a straight, now ex Catholic, this is something I dont get, and I hope I dont insult anyone cause I really dont intend to.
Why would anyone who is LGBTS want to be part of the Catholic Church ? The RCC have clearly set out their stall. The rules are the rules, if you dont like them then dont join the club.
would people feel validated if a gay friendly pope had been elected or something? The RCC is a club, open to all. This club has rules. If you dont like these rules, dont join the club.
Why no pressure on Islam to abandon its principles on this matter?0 -
.... Why would anyone who is LGBTS want to be part of the Catholic Church ? The RCC have clearly set out their stall. The rules are the rules, if you dont like them then dont join the club.
I think their discriminatory rules, not to mention their continual cover up of child rape is absolutely disgusting. But thats the RCC. ....
Well said, couldn't have put it better myself. Also why would women whom the church discriminate against want to be part of the church? I find it strange there's a 4 page thread on the pope in a gay forum. The church, it's leaders and some of its followers pontificate a lot .... but who's listening? They should get their own house in order first. I think Jesus put it eloquently ....And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?0 -
Well don't you think many strict catholics would be vastly more accepting of gay/lesbians etc if their own leader was to announce that they no longer denounced such things and were extending their arms whole heartedly? It sends a huge message to the catholic world and make catholics reconsider the way they view things. Or so I'd think.suicide_circus wrote: »Agree.
would people feel validated if a gay friendly pope had been elected or something? The RCC is a club, open to all. This club has rules. If you dont like these rules, dont join the club.0 -
As someone who travels fairly regularly in Africa, and who has been to South America, I just don't see the increase in support there that you claim. For example, in Africa the near hysteria of the western press over the whole papacy in recent times just wasn't evident. The catholic church is now, rightly, the subject of just as much ridicule and scathing criticism in Africa as it is in Europe.
I keep hearing that the catholic church is growing in africa and south america, but the evidence for that seems patchy at best.
Im not sure what parts of Africa youve been to, but from my experience the growth is rampant. School, waterwell, crops, Jesus. RCC Jesus.
You must also remember, the RCC includes everyone who has been baptised and has not had their birth certs rectified. Ask most people in Ireland for example their religion, high chance they will say Roman Catholic. Do they go to mass? Unlikely. Do they believe the bread (Eucharist) and wine is really the body and blood of Jesus ? No. Do they have sex before marriage? Yes. Do they use contraception ? Yes. Do they eat meat on fridays, do they say the rosary every day. The list goes on.
The way I see it, if you do ANY of the above, youre breaking the rules, you cant possible call yourself RC. But people pick and choose what suits them, especially when it comes to having their big day in a white dress.
Personally I see baptism as a breach of human rights, you should have free will and choice at 18, not be forced, unknowingly, to absolve you of your original sin ?? WTF.
According to a recent Eldis report, amongst others....
More than two-thirds of Catholics live in the developing world, and population projections indicate that proportion will grow to three-quarters in the period assessed.
From 2004 to 2050, Catholic populations are projected to increase by 146 percent in Africa, 63 percent in Asia, 42 percent in Latin America and the Caribbean, and 38 percent in North America. Whilst the United States will still experience growth albeit at a reduced rate, Europe will experience a 6 percent decline in its Catholic population.
Countries forecast to have the greatest numerical increases in their Catholic populations by 2050 include Congo, the Philippines, Mexico, Brazil, Nigeria, Uganda, Colombia, Argentina, and Angola.
Multiple other reports showing developing world is and will be key to RC survival.0 -
Lenmeister wrote: »Well don't you think many strict catholics would be vastly more accepting of gay/lesbians etc if their own leader was to announce that they no longer denounced such things and were extending their arms whole heartedly? It sends a huge message to the catholic world and make catholics reconsider the way they view things. Or so I'd think.
I think anyone who needs another human in Rome to tell them to respect and love others deserves to live in continual ignorance, and never fully appreciate or experience what it feels like to love and respect, and in return feel loved and respected.
But I forgive them, for they do not understand.0 -
Lenmeister wrote: »Ofcourse there isn't 1 billion catholics. There may be that amount of people baptised catholic, but obviously you're right in saying a lot of them couldn't care less. .
I really have no idea, but that's what they like to claim.Lenmeister wrote: »
I know a vast amount of people still very much adhearing to the pope and the church.
I think it's a mistake to assume that because you, or I , know some people personally that we then extrapolate that across the world.
My experience comes all sorts of sources and not just from those who I know; from talking to others, looking at legislation, reading newspapers, travelling, reading about church matters in the press and books, talking to friends who are involved in the church in some capacity or other and from other sources.
Neither of us can argue the specific numbers, and I am just grateful that the numbers of those who do no longer subject themselves to the utterances of this pope is growing, and see him as irrelevant, out of touch, and still grappling with issues the majority of us have already decided upon for ourselves.
Take homosexuality as a case in point. Most countries around the world now have abandoned the nasty and vicious teachings of the catholic church on that issue, and most counties now have legislatively decided that to be homosexual is as normal as fish and chips. The pope, meanwhile, thinks....well, actually, not many really care what he thinks any more as we've all moved on and left him on the subject.
Whetever he decides on the issue is now largely irrelevant, as if he decides its ok to be gay, well we've all decided that already and are not looking to him for guidance, and if he decides its not ok to be gay, then we don't really care as we've mostly decided it is .Lenmeister wrote: »I agree with what you have said in what they have done, but the fact of the matter is the church has not lost as much power as you think, albeit still a lot. They did have a stranglehold on much of Europe at one point in time, but that time has long since passed. I was also baptised catholic, but do not adhere to any of it's doctrine. I am fiercely resentful of much to do with the church, so I agree with much of what you say, but not that the pope has no influence, that's rediculous tbh.
I agree it would be ridiculous to claim the pope has no influence, and would never claim that.
What makes me glad is that the power of the papacy is dwindling, and hope it will continue to dwindle. I wonder myself if the disgraceful way the church conspired and covered up, thus allowing the rape, brutalisation and torture of children in its care to continue, will not, in fact, turn out to be their Gerald Ratner moment.
All I can say for now is that the pope seems less and less relevant to many, and that is a good thing.0 -
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The church already teaches love compassion and kindness should be extended to everyone. They just dont condone gay sex or marriage. If there are "catholics" out there queer bashing or generally abusing gay people then they are going against chuch teaching and doing it due to their own prejudices and shortcomings.Lenmeister wrote: »Well don't you think many strict catholics would be vastly more accepting of gay/lesbians etc if their own leader was to announce that they no longer denounced such things and were extending their arms whole heartedly? It sends a huge message to the catholic world and make catholics reconsider the way they view things. Or so I'd think.
If people really want to alter RCC doctraine they have a far better chance of doing that from within the institution than shouting from the outside.
And, again, why does no one try to exact pressure to alter Islamic teachings in homosexuality?0
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