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Sexism you have personally experienced or have heard of? *READ POST 1*

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,487 ✭✭✭banquo


    maybe
    Glorious article in The Guardian:

    Online Abuse Is Not Limited By Gender


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    As are the poorest and most exploited - as has been pointed out men don't simply occupy the best jobs, but also the worst and most dangerous ones (9/10 of workplace fatalities are male).

    Given that fuller picture (which may well not suit your narrative) - what's your point?
    My point is: saying "Men are basically disposable" is lying. Yes, men are more likely to work dangerous jobs, but that does not mean that men in general are disposable. It's a completely hyperbolic thing to say - and not helpful.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    My point is: saying "Men are basically disposable" is lying.

    It's not a lie unless it sets out to deceive. IMO it's a valid perception, in that I can see how one would see it that way, particularly with the military, and more dangerous jobs like oil rigging and even joining the police force.

    Maybe this is not relevant in Ireland, but this idea of male expendibility is a perception that exists outside if Ireland but has perhaps been referenced here on an Irish site, confusing matters a little bit.

    However, with more and more women doing dangerous jobs, like their recent admission into combat in the US, it may change so that all are seen as expendible.


  • Administrators Posts: 53,783 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    awec wrote: »
    We are drifting again...
    mod <snip>

    As for men being disposable, I would suggest people read the Myth of Male Power as it covers this in some detail and answers Femme Fatale's criticisms.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    No
    Zulu wrote: »
    On the sexism I've experienced, it's the refusal to entertain the topic that bothers me the most. Discussing sexism faced my men or mens rights, inevitably, at some stage, will have certain people attempt to shut down the conversation/topic. Be it thread derailment, or petty "women have it worse" type belittlement.
    One of the first points I made on this very thread! And, as predicted, it plays out again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    Not what I'm saying whatsoever - it's only in your head that I'm saying "Women have it worse"; I wouldn't do that on a thread about sexism experienced by men (the reverse happens enough on the other forum so I know how frustrating it is when people do that).

    I only said a statement like "Men are basically disposable" is purely for provocation. If it's true that men are basically disposable, who thinks it? I certainly don't, do you? Nobody thinks it for crying out loud.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    No
    Not what I'm saying whatsoever - it's only in your head that I'm saying "Women have it worse";
    ..well me, and the others.
    I wouldn't do that on a thread about sexism experienced by men
    ...and yet here your are, doing the very same.
    (the reverse happens enough on the other forum so I know how frustrating it is when people do that).
    Whatever. This isn't there. And we aren't them.
    I only said a statement like "Men are basically disposable" is purely for provocation. If it's true that men are basically disposable, who thinks it? I certainly don't, do you? Nobody thinks it for crying out loud.
    Sensible people take a step back and consider it.
    Why is it that men suffer such high mortality in the workplace if they are considered equally as indispensable as women? Why are the rates so extremely disproportionate?

    Why is it "women and children first"?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    I only said a statement like "Men are basically disposable" is purely for provocation. If it's true that men are basically disposable, who thinks it? I certainly don't, do you? Nobody thinks it for crying out loud.
    Actually we do and have done so for a very long time.

    Historically, chivalry would have men sacrifice themselves to protect women and children - up to the more modern "women and children first" where it came to the order to save people. In war zones we continually hear of civilian women being raped, but have you asked what happens to civilian men? They're killed, but that's not really as important, it seems.

    Men still constitute 93% of work related deaths, taking on more dangerous jobs, and are the one's who are drafted to fight wars (even Ireland, we're just lucky that we're not a war at present). The idea that a man is necessary in a family has also been questioned, whereby men have been legally reduced to little more than ATM machines with little other input on the lives of their children.

    Arguing that because some men are at the apex of the social ladder dispels this is, of course, a logical fallacy; you might as well argue that women were better off in Elizabethan England by the same logic. Reality is that 99.999% are not.

    If the value of men was not so secondary, why do you think news reports make a point of saying how many women and children are killed in tragedies, as if to underline the greater importance of their loss? Or how little interest there is in male suicide or illnesses that target men, while female medical concerns choke up the media?

    If you want to claim that the dispensability of men is a myth, you're really going to have to address all of the above (and many more examples I've not yet given) and how they come from something else. My suspicion is that people tend to reject this notion because we've been so brainwashed with decades of how only women can be discriminated against, that we've not really thought about it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    Zulu wrote: »
    ..well me, and the others.
    In your (plural) heads so.
    ...and yet here your are, doing the very same.
    No I am not marching in here saying "Women have it worse" by expressing the view that the statement "Men are basically disposable" is inflammatory, provocative and hostile. Stop telling me I'm doing something that I'm not doing, just because you want that to be the case. I didn't say it at all - you and others are simply deciding that I was implying it.
    Whatever. This isn't there. And we aren't them.
    I didn't say you are them. I only said it to illustrate how I know how frustrating whataboutery can be, hence I wouldn't resort to it. Please stop twisting and ignoring what I'm saying.
    Why is it that men suffer such high mortality in the workplace if they are considered equally as indispensable as women? Why are the rates so extremely disproportionate?

    Why is it "women and children first"?
    Now, the above is a much more reasonable way of putting it than "Men are basically disposable".
    I agree - it shouldn't be "Women and children first". It shouldn't be a case that only men, any men, are always the go-to people for anything violent/dangerous.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    Getting back to sexism in the workplace directed at men....

    In a recent meeting, there was a general discussion on the code of behaviour etc. Our very feminist manager (not the nice kind) was saying how inappropriate it is to refer to somebody as "pet" or "dear" etc. While she was saying it she was directing it to the two men at the meeting and not the 5 women.

    Now this discussion wasn't based on any complaints, it was just a general discussion on the code of professional conduct. The ironic thing is that neither myself or the other man have EVER used those phrases but on occasion it has been said to us. For example, when I have made coffee for a particular female college she will say, "thanks pet". Its fine, its just a real Irish thing and its nice. But the point our manager was trying to make was that if a man is to say it, it is sexist and demeaning and used to put women in their place. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Now, the above is a much more reasonable way of putting it than "Men are basically disposable".
    I agree - it shouldn't be "Women and children first". It shouldn't be a case that only men, any men, are always the go-to people for anything violent/dangerous.
    So you agree with the point, just not the wording.

    As for nobody believing it clearly that is not the case.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    No
    In your (plural) heads so...

    ...I agree - it shouldn't be "Women and children first". It shouldn't be a case that only men, any men, are always the go-to people for anything violent/dangerous.
    Wut? :confused:


  • Administrators Posts: 53,783 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    py2006 wrote: »
    The ironic thing is that neither myself or the other man have EVER used those phrases but on occasion it has been said to us. For example, when I have made coffee for a particular female college she will say, "thanks pet". Its fine, its just a real Irish thing and its nice.
    You should have pointed it out to her and told her "I don't mind it when I'm called pet".

    I do think it is important to challenge such prejudices, because if you don't they just become re-enforced whenever they're repeated and if you do challenge them like this, every so often people stop and think...


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    You should have pointed it out to her and told her "I don't mind it when I'm called pet".

    I do think it is important to challenge such prejudices, because if you don't they just become re-enforced whenever they're repeated and if you do challenge them like this, every so often people stop and think...

    Yea I agree, and normally I would challenge (politely) these instances. However, this particular individual would not take to kindly to such a challenge. It could actually have devastating consequences.

    Edit: Actually, I do remember saying that I don't believe that when people use those terms they were deliberately trying to be demeaning. However, she pointed out that its how its received is the point.


  • Administrators Posts: 53,783 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Fukuyama


    py2006 wrote: »
    Ehhhhhh, come on now!

    Sheryl Sandberg, one of the most successful women in the Tech industry and now works for Facebook said as much.

    Men are more driven in that they're more likely to pick up the phone and ask for the job.

    Here's a link.

    http://www.ted.com/talks/sheryl_sandberg_why_we_have_too_few_women_leaders.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Fukuyama


    You should have pointed it out to her and told her "I don't mind it when I'm called pet".

    I do think it is important to challenge such prejudices, because if you don't they just become re-enforced whenever they're repeated and if you do challenge them like this, every so often people stop and think...

    Customers used to call me 'love' - particularly the old ladies. Used to annoy the hell out of me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    What about sexism in sport?

    For the Dublin marathon, if an Irish man runs it in 2 hours and 30 minutes he gets €200 in prize money but if an Irish woman runs it in the same time she'll get €10,000. Obviously there are differences in the male and female physique but men getting less prize money for the same performance is not equality.

    Female tennis players get paid the same despite playing less sets and men's tennis also have far higher tv audiences i.e. they earn more revenue for the tournaments.

    In the marathon 2 hrs 30 mins is elite standard for women while its good club standard for men.

    If there was €10,000 for every sub 2:30 time, there be 1,000s of men from Europe and further afield entering the race to break that time.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    iptba wrote: »
    A (female) psychology student friend in college told me a few of the female and feminist lecturers in the psychology department (a university in Ireland) were biased against men. She gave an example of a male and female student handing in the same paper and the male getting a II.2 while the female got a high II.1 a few years apart (if I recall correctly, they did this as some sort of experiment, but could have the details wrong - it was a long time ago).

    The second person should have got a fail for copying.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators Posts: 12,178 Mod ✭✭✭✭miamee


    I find the use of the word 'mansplain' incredibly annoying and patronising towards men. I know it's not something in widespread use and probably limited to online discussions but it still boils my blood to see it being used.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    No
    miamee wrote: »
    I find the use of the word 'mansplain' incredibly annoying and patronising towards men. I know it's not something in widespread use and probably limited to online discussions but it still boils my blood to see it being used.
    Especially when it's always the same type of poster who uses it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    I find the use of the word 'mansplain' incredibly annoying and patronising towards men. I know it's not something in widespread use and probably limited to online discussions but it still boils my blood to see it being used.

    And there's a bit of an elitist attitude as well. Eg: You've never been to Gender studies, what would you know?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,587 ✭✭✭newport2


    Once again girls largely outperform boys in the leaving cert, not an eyebrow raised. No questions asked. The education system is not failing the boys, it's just that girls are better.

    Anywhere men/boys outperform women/girls there is - without question - sexism afoot. When women/girls outperform men, it's "Well done the girls".

    If the supposed salary gap in the workplace was the other way around, I expect there would be just headlines such as "Women continue to outperform men in the workplace", something we would all be supposed to applaud.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,880 ✭✭✭iptba


    newport2 wrote: »
    Once again girls largely outperform boys in the leaving cert, not an eyebrow raised. No questions asked. The education system is not failing the boys, it's just that girls are better.

    Anywhere men/boys outperform women/girls there is - without question - sexism afoot. When women/girls outperform men, it's "Well done the girls".

    If the supposed salary gap in the workplace was the other way around, I expect there would be just headlines such as "Women continue to outperform men in the workplace", something we would all be supposed to applaud.
    The coverage also tends not to highlight the variations across genders - it doesn't tend to highlight that males do tend to do better at the top level in maths, for example, possibly because that would stray from the message that girls can do equally as well or better than boys.
    A1s in common languages and maths (Girls/Boys):

    English: 764 vs 450
    Irish: 690 vs 272
    French: 591 vs 311
    Maths: 197 vs 512

    or
    compared the number of girls that got A1s, boys got, in percentage terms:
    English: 58.9%
    Irish: 39.4%
    French: 52.6%
    Maths: 259.9%

    Source for Stats: http://examinations.ie/index.php?l=en&mc=st&sc=r13

    And if you're heading for university, you generally have to do three languages (incl. English) and one mathematical subject.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,587 ✭✭✭newport2


    Another thing that bugs me is often hearing the line "Men don't like successful women".

    Heard it so many times when a men ends a relationship with a woman, her friends churn it out as a way of saying "He only broke up with you because he can't handle you're so wonderful". While this is understandable thing to do to console her, it does do damage. My wife's friend got dumped recently, was upset and they were all churning this line out, but the thing is, they seemed to genuinely believe it to be true in all cases. I got asked by one of them why men don't like successful women and I said that this was untrue in the vast majority of cases, had they not even considered that her boyfriend had just lost interest, things didn't feel right to him, etc. Got blank stares back.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,880 ✭✭✭iptba


    newport2 wrote: »
    Another thing that bugs me is often hearing the line "Men don't like successful women".

    Heard it so many times when a men ends a relationship with a woman, her friends churn it out as a way of saying "He only broke up with you because he can't handle you're so wonderful". While this is understandable thing to do to console her, it does do damage. My wife's friend got dumped recently, was upset and they were all churning this line out, but the thing is, they seemed to genuinely believe it to be true in all cases. I got asked by one of them why men don't like successful women and I said that this was untrue in the vast majority of cases, had they not even considered that her boyfriend had just lost interest, things didn't feel right to him, etc. Got blank stares back.
    An alternative explanation for some relationships involving successful women breaking down would be hypergamy, a tendency in some females to want a partner that has/generates at least as much if not more resources than them, and so not being happy if this wasn't occurring.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,523 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    iptba wrote: »
    The coverage also tends not to highlight the variations across genders - it doesn't tend to highlight that males do tend to do better at the top level in maths, for example, possibly because that would stray from the message that girls can do equally as well or better than boys.



    or



    Source for Stats: http://examinations.ie/index.php?l=en&mc=st&sc=r13

    And if you're heading for university, you generally have to do three languages (incl. English) and one mathematical subject.

    One that particularly annoyed me today was the in the Irish Times:

    "Even in physics – often the preserve of boys – the 2013 class defied tradition: 84.7 per cent of higher level girls achieved an honour, while only 70.4 per cent of boys managed it."

    Despite the fact that far more males sat the exam (3589 versus 1243). A higher percentage of males got As and Bs. They conveniently include C grades as it adds a headline sort of figure.

    I really dislike the casual use of "GIRLS OUTPERFORM BOYS". Perhaps on average they did, but females didn't just en masse get better grades than boys. Differences in average performance over such a large and diverse group of people is completely irrelevant.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 220 ✭✭Guyanachronism


    Does getting abuse for not confirming to a masculine ideal count as a sexism?

    I mean for example if a guy has long hair, wears skinny jeans etc. and he gets abuse shouted at him, you know the usual sissy, queer etc.

    It is abuse that is based on the guy not conforming to some vague masculine idea, people demanding that he conform to some vague gender stereotype. So since it's based on his gender, does it count as sexism?

    Because that would be the most prevalient form of sexism that I would personally experience and see other men experience.


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