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Sexism you have personally experienced or have heard of? *READ POST 1*

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Guess it's just one of those places where you encounter a natural imbalance, just as one could ask 'Are women allowed to be engineers' ...
    Not entirely 'natural' though.

    To begin with, if a woman has an interest in engineering, people don't presume that she's some sort of sexual deviant. This 'moral panic' goes beyond occupation, and actually has resulted in a situation where many men feel they have to avoid children altogether for fear of being branded as such.

    Additionally, we've had decades now of money being pumped into the educational system, encouraging girls to take up traditionally male subjects, such as maths and physics, that lead to such roles - to the point that now boys are falling behind in schools. There's been absolutely no reciprocal encouragement for men to go into traditionally female occupations.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 378 ✭✭ConFurioso


    Guess it's just one of those places where you encounter a natural imbalance, just as one could ask 'Are women allowed to be engineers' ...



    That reminds me of this documentary I watched once (Please ignore the crass and unnecessary title):



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 344 ✭✭wallycharlo


    ...if a woman has an interest in engineering, people don't presume that she's some sort of sexual deviant...

    Point taken, I had not even considered that side of the argument. Very true.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    ConFurioso wrote: »
    That reminds me of this documentary I watched once (Please ignore the crass and unnecessary title):
    It's a very interesting documentary, but a bit off-topic here.

    At the core of it is really the ongoing debate between nurture versus nature in science. Most nowadays have come to accept that both tend to be involved; a classic example being psychopathy or addiction, in that certain biological flags have been discovered that predisposed someone towards these conditions, but environment is still necessary to make them come to the fore.

    Practically no respected scientist takes the extreme 'nature' side of the argument any more, however on the extreme 'nurture' or tabula rasa side, some still do. The impression I get, is that such positions are often ideologically rather than scientifically based - something that you'll tend to notice when you discover that such proponents often claim that 'nurture' is behind almost everything, except sexual orientation - then suddenly the opposite is true with equal conviction.

    Interesting debate, but as I said, off-topic here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 378 ✭✭ConFurioso


    Yes, you're completely right, it is a bit off topic, I was just reminded when the subject of 'female engineers' came up. Personally, I can't seem to make my mind up over it (nature vs nurture), and wish I lived in a time when our genome was fully mapped. :pac:

    ANYWAY! As you rightly said, off topic.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    Just on Corinthian's pedophile comment.

    It's kind of annoying that male actions are always viewed through "men rape women/are pedophiles". Hell, if a man glances at a woman he is "objectifying" her, and, correct me if I'm wrong, but obectification is used as an explanation for rape. Yes, there are many disrespectful people out there, and staring is crass, but it's a little bit sad that normal sexuality is compared to abnormal sexuality. It's kind of like if a 14 year old girl stares at an actor on television, and the parent tells them to stop objectifying them. Or even worse, is supporting a culture that promotes rape :confused:

    Little bit of a rant, but just commenting how often normal, healthy sexuality is compared to abnormal sexuality.

    I think we're making gains towards getting rid of victim blaming, but there aren't any movements towards getting rid of it's partner in crime. And that is the notion that men have to be thought not to rape. It's bizarre to see slogans in various marches that promote this thought. And, since in my opinion misandry and misogyny are two sides of the same coin, you can not get rid of victim blaming, if you're still promoting a view that says any man you meet could be a potential abuser.

    Unfortunately, whether your promoting a victim blaming view or a view that all men are potential rapists, your still promoting a view that makes women feel afraid.

    Just a bit sad for everybody to be honest :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,196 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Tell me this. Are men allowed work in a creche? I watched that documentry on RTE a couple of weeks ago and noticed it was all girls. I would think an essential part of a childs development would require a more rounded interaction with adults?
    Even here in TGC, I'll probably get slated for this but anyway...

    A family member has numerous qualifications related to early childhood development and childcare and worked in creches for a few years. Frankly, unless you happen to own the creche, the money is so poor (even at supervisory levels) that few who aren't in some way subsidised by a parent (e.g. still living at home) or partner could support themselves on it.

    While some men are happy enough to work in low-paid positions, I've rarely met one prepared to do the level of certification expected for a position that pays so poorly (typically around minimum wage). No doubt it's a hangover from the "breadwinner" role of men but as a gender we tend towards expecting higher rewards for jobs that require qualification.

    To be fair, few of the women I've known that worked in creches stayed past their late teens / early twenties, progressing into careers with more prospects and those that remained tended to do so as it suited their primary role of caregiver to their own children.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Sleepy wrote: »
    To be fair, few of the women I've known that worked in creches stayed past their late teens / early twenties, progressing into careers with more prospects and those that remained tended to do so as it suited their primary role of caregiver to their own children.
    That last statement seems to imply that women also aren't prepared to "do the level of certification expected for a position that pays so poorly" since they are either using it as stepping stone to a better position (much like doing an apprenticeship) or using it to augment their the role of minding their own child.

    I wonder though how successful a male applicant would be if looking for such a position; anyone know of males who are actively employed in such a role.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Sleepy wrote: »
    Even here in TGC, I'll probably get slated for this but anyway...

    A family member has numerous qualifications related to early childhood development and childcare and worked in creches for a few years. Frankly, unless you happen to own the creche, the money is so poor (even at supervisory levels) that few who aren't in some way subsidised by a parent (e.g. still living at home) or partner could support themselves on it.

    While some men are happy enough to work in low-paid positions, I've rarely met one prepared to do the level of certification expected for a position that pays so poorly (typically around minimum wage). No doubt it's a hangover from the "breadwinner" role of men but as a gender we tend towards expecting higher rewards for jobs that require qualification.

    To be fair, few of the women I've known that worked in creches stayed past their late teens / early twenties, progressing into careers with more prospects and those that remained tended to do so as it suited their primary role of caregiver to their own children.

    Also it's such a low status job they aren't going to push for men to be able to access, unlike physics and engineering, mentioned earlier. I can't think of any traditionally high status jobs dominated by women.

    It's kind of like complaining why white people don't get special encouragement to work in New York City kitchens, dominated by Mexicans.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,029 ✭✭✭um7y1h83ge06nx


    The wife of one of the guys I work with works in Childcare. It's exactly as you describe, particularly when you say the only way to make money in it is to own a creche.

    As for men working in creches, it's a vicious cycle. Men are viewed with suspicious if they want to work with and interact with kids (as we said). Men then decide that there are too many barriers to working with kids and the risks are too great so they run a mile into another career.

    I myself wouldn't mind doing some sort of coaching etc. with kids. It would be good for me as a person and good to gain some experience in dealing with kids in case I have my own some day. Realistically though I wouldn't. Lot less of a chance of ending up in a sh*tty legal situation by playing games, running, going to the pub in my spare time than working with kids in my spare time. All it takes is one false accusation and you're world can fall apart. Sad but true. :(


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Sleepy wrote: »
    No doubt it's a hangover from the "breadwinner" role of men but as a gender we tend towards expecting higher rewards for jobs that require qualification.
    It's not a 'hangover' - it's alive and well. While attitudes are slowly changing, men are still typically expected to pay; from the first date, through to long after the divorce. We can't afford not to seek more money.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,190 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    tsiehta wrote: »
    You also have Meg on Family Guy, who's entire point on the show is to be constantly verbally and physically abused.

    have you seen family guy? Like the simpsons, most of the major male characters are portrayed as being stupid. Peter, and chris in family guy and Homer and bart in the simpsons are idiots


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Feathers


    Sleepy wrote: »
    Even here in TGC, I'll probably get slated for this but anyway...

    A family member has numerous qualifications related to early childhood development and childcare and worked in creches for a few years. Frankly, unless you happen to own the creche, the money is so poor (even at supervisory levels) that few who aren't in some way subsidised by a parent (e.g. still living at home) or partner could support themselves on it.

    While some men are happy enough to work in low-paid positions, I've rarely met one prepared to do the level of certification expected for a position that pays so poorly (typically around minimum wage). No doubt it's a hangover from the "breadwinner" role of men but as a gender we tend towards expecting higher rewards for jobs that require qualification.

    To be fair, few of the women I've known that worked in creches stayed past their late teens / early twenties, progressing into careers with more prospects and those that remained tended to do so as it suited their primary role of caregiver to their own children.

    You could easily switch 'work in a creche' to 'primary school teacher', and the point still stands. Primary school teacher is a solid paying career, which has opportunity for career development (could go into a principalship, or a move to the inspectorate, etc.)

    Leaving aside the low numbers of male primary school teachers overall, how many of the men in schools are teaching infant classes?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,787 ✭✭✭✭Panthro


    maybe
    I don't know either party personally, but it looks like a sexism situation.
    I can't see a whole lot of difference between the two cases below, bar the punishment that is.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2359404/Revealed-The-dirty-text-messages-sent-teacher-24-pupil-16-week-affair-tattooed-body.html
    She "whisked him away for a romantic weekend break"..is that not abduction? She was spared jail while this guy:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2351611/Abducted-girls-love-letter-jailed-teacher-Jeremy-Forrest-seized-barred-visiting-him.html

    Well he gets 5 and a half years jail time.

    Seems a bit odd I think.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,196 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Feathers wrote: »
    You could easily switch 'work in a creche' to 'primary school teacher', and the point still stands. Primary school teacher is a solid paying career, which has opportunity for career development (could go into a principalship, or a move to the inspectorate, etc.)

    Leaving aside the low numbers of male primary school teachers overall, how many of the men in schools are teaching infant classes?
    Honestly, I don't think the two are all that comparable: one pays a good salary with fantastic working hours and pension whilst the other pays minimum wage. I'd know a handful of men who work as Primary School teachers but have never met a man involved in running a creche (other than one who did the books etc. for his wife's business).


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Feathers


    Sleepy wrote: »
    Honestly, I don't think the two are all that comparable: one pays a good salary with fantastic working hours and pension whilst the other pays minimum wage. I'd know a handful of men who work as Primary School teachers but have never met a man involved in running a creche (other than one who did the books etc. for his wife's business).

    No, they're not comparable at all, which is what I was saying - the point was made that the low numbers of men in creches could be down to the low wage or the status of the job.

    The same couldn't be said of teaching infants in primary school, but there's near zero men in these roles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 364 ✭✭Frogeye


    Also it's such a low status job they aren't going to push for men to be able to access, unlike physics and engineering, mentioned earlier. I can't think of any traditionally high status jobs dominated by women.
    .

    I can think of a few:

    Journalists
    Nursing
    Teaching
    Town Planning
    and soon to include Doctors!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/jun/03/gender


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Frogeye wrote: »
    I can think of a few:

    Journalists
    Nursing
    Teaching
    Town Planning
    and soon to include Doctors!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/jun/03/gender

    You'd consider those high status?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    You'd consider those high status?

    Doctors, absolutely.
    Teachers, they certainly used to be, but still have a high standing in the community.

    The others are by no means low status jobs, and are certainly a long way away from being unskilled labor.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭MOC88


    Frogeye wrote: »
    I can think of a few:

    Journalists
    Nursing
    Teaching
    Town Planning
    and soon to include Doctors!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/jun/03/gender

    Add pharmacists to that as well


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭DamoKen


    Just saw this today http://www.ics.ie/index.php?option=com_eventbooking&task=view_event&event_id=413&Itemid=241 .

    Not sure what to make of it. On the one hand think it's great for children to know what their Mam's do in work. On the other it blatantly ignores the fact the majority of IT engineers are male, ergo the majority of children with a parent working in IT will miss out simply cos their parent is the wrong sex.

    Why not just leave it up to the child to shout "my Mom/Dad is an engineer" on the day depending on individual circumstance? At least it would mean children whose parent in IT is not a woman would be included?

    I understand females are underrepresented in IT, I should know, worked in the field for the last 15 years and almost regretted my choice in college when on the first day I found just 3 of my classmates were girls out of a class of 25+. But surely that was a personal choice in career? How does holding an exclusive event for those already in IT in any way address career choices for those at college level?

    Just doesn't sit well with me. I'm in IT, think an open day at google for kids is a great idea, but although I've worked in IT for years neither I nor my children can go because I'm not a woman. Why? Do children have no interest in what their fathers do? Is an apitude for Computer Science not present in children if it's only the father in IT?

    Makes no sense to me to have such a blantantly exclusive event. Would have thought the very point of a childrens day would be to be inclusive for family. Last I checked fathers are part of that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    ongarboy wrote: »
    I kind of equate this double standard to the whole element of how differently male and female sexualisation is treated in the media. e.g. Male strippers are considered a source of humour or giggles for the girls even as they ogle the men yet female strippers being ogled by men is viewed as seedy and sordid.
    .

    Yea I always found that one strange. I remember several years ago the Chipendales came to Ireland and it was advertised everywhere (including billboards) as a fun night out for the ladies!

    While the reverse is a seedy, perverted, degrading act that horrible sexist men do on the sly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    In my experience, especially in the workplace, women are just as sexist as men. Probably even more so nowadays because men are afraid of their lives in case they make the wrong comment and they loose their jobs.

    I've seen groups of women openly ogle a large picture of semi naked man posing suggestively with an exaggerated bulge. I had remarks made about my ass and on another occasion when a remark was made about my jeans, one woman shouted "its whats in your jeans" much to the hysterics of the other ladies in a group. All I could do was be embarrassed and laugh. It was only afterwards that I realised that I would have been a serious amount of trouble if I had done the same.

    Recently, while being the only man at a meeting I had to listen to them giving out about men and how sexist they are but the irony was that they were being very sexist and offensive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    Zulu wrote: »
    On the sexism I've experienced, it's the refusal to entertain the topic that bothers me the most. Discussing sexism faced my men or mens rights, inevitably, at some stage, will have certain people attempt to shut down the conversation/topic. Be it thread derailment, or petty "women have it worse" type belittlement.

    This really bugs me. It has happened to me on a few occasions. If I bring up anything relating to men it means that I am a) belittling the situations women find themselves in or b) I hate women.

    I kid you not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 373 ✭✭ibstar


    1)Any guy working/worked in retail will always work and have to do more things than their female counterparts (while both parties being paid the same)
    2)Night clubs charging males more than females, or not charging females at all.( happens a lot abroad)
    3)Women expecting you to give up your seat (used to give up when I was single :D ). Will only give up my seat for an Elderly person (Ageism anyone?) or a pregnant woman.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,523 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    ibstar wrote: »
    1)Any guy working/worked in retail will always work and have to do more things than their female counterparts (while both parties being paid the same)
    2)Night clubs charging males more than females, or not charging females at all.( happens a lot abroad)
    3)Women expecting you to give up your seat (used to give up when I was single :D ). Will only give up my seat for an Elderly person (Ageism anyone?) or a pregnant woman.

    I'm not sure I agree with number 1.

    Number 2 I do find particularly annoying.

    Number 3 is completely bonkers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭Woodward


    No
    I'm not sure I agree with number 1.

    Number 2 I do find particularly annoying.

    Number 3 is completely bonkers.

    #1 is true in my experience. On top of all the other duties the guys are expected to do most of the lifting even when the girls would be perfectly capable


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    ibstar wrote: »
    1)Any guy working/worked in retail will always work and have to do more things than their female counterparts (while both parties being paid the same)
    Any time I've been involved in office moves the expectation from the majority of the female staff has been for the males to carry the pc, monitor and other moderately heavy equipment. All of which they where physically capable of holding but frequently played the men are stronger card.
    ibstar wrote: »
    3)Women expecting you to give up your seat (used to give up when I was single :D ). Will only give up my seat for an Elderly person (Ageism anyone?) or a pregnant woman.
    It amazing how blind other women become in my experience when they've got seats and there is a pregnant women standing beside them. This is especially so if there is a male seated.

    My favourite was once seeing a male eventually getting up to give a seat and overhearing one women say to another that it took him long enough.

    Pity I didn't have the balls to say something.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Fukuyama


    Just on the retail point - anyone saying that's not true has their eyes wide shut.

    I've often found myself doing ridiculous tasks in retail simply because I was the only male around. Cleaning up feces, heavy lifting, dealing with anti-social/aggressive customers etc...

    Also in my last job it was an unwritten rule that female members of staff wouldn't do the locking up shift (petrol station). It was assumed that the lads wouldn't mind the added danger of having an armed robbery. :rolleyes:

    When we actually did have one I was quietly very pissed off at that rule. You could argue that the girls were also being discriminated against in that they could only do morning, afternoon and evening shift. Yet I never heard a complaint about it, particularly after the robbery happened. Interesting.

    I enjoyed the night shift anyway so wasn't going to kick up a fuss. However, after the attempted robbery there were obviously conversations among the male staff about the obvious elephant in the room.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,297 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    maybe
    ibstar wrote: »
    1)Any guy working/worked in retail will always work and have to do more things than their female counterparts (while both parties being paid the same)
    2)Night clubs charging males more than females, or not charging females at all.( happens a lot abroad)
    3)Women expecting you to give up your seat (used to give up when I was single :D ). Will only give up my seat for an Elderly person (Ageism anyone?) or a pregnant woman.
    The retail thing I can attest to; always had to carry the heavier boxes, and/or most of the manual tasks. Shop, pub, cinema; all jobs require heavy lifting by males. And thank f**k; a few of the part-time jobs that I had gotten I think I got because I was a tall male that they assumed could lift stuff. Most other males in the jobs were strong, and the women (mainly) weak and pretty. I suppose that brush swings both ways.

    As for the third point, I only give my seat up to the elderly. I wouldn't want to offend any fat ladies.


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