Should programming/networking be a leaving cert subject?

theidiots

GavinFlud wrote: »

I both agree and disagree with what you've said.

On the one hand, a lot of people who actually graduate with degrees in CS or SE never end up working in that field, simply because they are no where near good enough or don't have the relevant certs for certain jobs. This is all mainly due to huge numbers of people jumping on the SE bandwagon because that's where the jobs are. If these companies can't find Irish graduates good enough to fill their jobs, they'll gladly look at graduates from other companies.

On the other hand, there is most certainly jobs out there for talented graduates from CS and SE courses. The only thing is that nobody's going to get a job based solely on the fact that they managed to graduate. Companies want to see side-projects, contributions to open-source projects and a genuine knowledge of SE.

In relation to OP's original question, I'd like to see things like programming and computer engineering taught in schools, even at a basic level. The kids that like it have the option of continuing in that field, while the ones who don't can just ditch it after their exams like we do with most other subjects.

I agree and there is a lot of talented individuals who have amazing final year projects, work on side projects or tell the employer that they will work for free for a month to prove their worth.

Programming thought from primary school we would have some mad heads:pac:

JRant

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

I've been trying to convince my parents to enrol my kid Sister in an after-school lesson to learn the bare basics. I think that, in a world already pretty much run on technology, if you can't do anything beyond use the future version of Facebook in ten years time you're gonna have trouble doing most anything work related.

I volunteered for a while in an after school club to teach young kids how to use Lego Mindstorm. The kids get to build lego machines and then programme them using the mindstorm interface. It's a really good way to introduce while loops, for loops, if statements and the kids pick it up incredibly quickly. Definitely worth a look into for ur sis.

GavinFlud

theidiots wrote: »

I agree and there is a lot of talented individuals who have amazing final year projects, work on side projects or tell the employer that they will work for free for a month to prove their worth.

Programming thought from primary school we would have some mad heads:pac:

To be fair, if someone is willing to work for free for a month that would be a major red flag for me in terms of their actual talent. Likewise, if a company is looking to hire someone without having to pay them for a month's work then I'd be definitely steering well clear of that company.

You're right though, the main problem we'd have if kids were taught programming from primary school would be a massive increase in the number of space cadets who think they're the world's best programmer but in reality couldn't tell you what a compiler is.

Bipolar Joe

JRant wrote: »

I volunteered for a while in an after school club to teach young kids how to use Lego Mindstorm. The kids get to build lego machines and then programme them using the mindstorm interface. It's a really good way to introduce while loops, for loops, if statements and the kids pick it up incredibly quickly. Definitely worth a look into for ur sis.

Deadly idea, didn't know this even existed. Cheers, man!

BrianG23

Should be optional. I certainly would have done it if I could

theidiots

I tried that but my criminal record of touching rats in there funny place wouldn't let me near a school :mad:

gubbie

theidiots wrote: »

... Home EC, geography(no more than enough at junior cert) or even thought at junior cert would be more beneficial. College courses these days are a joke. I don't mean that everyone should be made do them. I mean that people should have a choice.

Step 1 to life is being able to feed and look after yourself. Everyone should do home ec.

I think programming should be a LC subject, but not a mandatory one.

There's also 3 different programming competitions at the moment going on in Cork.

Duggys Housemate

gubbie wrote: »

Step 1 to life is being able to feed and look after yourself. Everyone should do home ec.

I think programming should be a LC subject, but not a mandatory one.

Home E does not need to be an examined course. But let's teach people to cook.

batistuta9

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

Deadly idea, didn't know this even existed. Cheers, man!

They're a bit expensive enough though, + it's hacked for Java (maybe others too) if you want to move away from the drag-drop blocks that's used to program them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXiql8Fm64A

Bipolar Joe

batistuta9 wrote: »

They're a bit expensive enough though, + it's hacked for Java (maybe others too) if you want to move away from the drag-drop blocks that's used to program them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXiql8Fm64A

Are there any that might be more appealing to girls? All the ones I've seen so far are "Build this truck!" or whatever.

lidllady

The job opportunities in IT are completely overexagerated IMO, I have a First Class Hons degree and I've found the jobs market and pay levels absolutely terrible. I even know one guy who graduated last year with a first class honours and 87% GPA and he still couldn't find ANY job :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: As a career IT has been a complete dissapointment because it just sucks up so much of you're time learning about new technologies, it never seems to pay off and you get treated like dirt

batistuta9

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

Are there any that might be more appealing to girls? All the ones I've seen so far are "Build this truck!" or whatever.

I dunno tbh, i think the ones in the video above the guy created himself, i you get me, this is what you can build - instruction manual like regular lego - from what you buy http://mindstorms.lego.com/en-us/history/default.aspx

have a look around that site or online you might see something for girls

or you could program it to do something girly or whatever she's into

Capt'n Midnight

if they don't teach the right type of programming then the kids may need to be de-programmed before they can be of use as a programmer

ie. it's may be easier to learn object orientated programming if you haven't been stuck learning basic or whatever it is that teachers know , because they aren't going to hire in competent programmers to do the teaching

GavinFlud

lidllady wrote: »

The job opportunities in IT are completely overexagerated IMO, I have a First Class Hons degree and I've found the jobs market and pay levels absolutely terrible. I even know one guy who graduated last year with a first class honours and 87% GPA and he still couldn't find ANY job :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: As a career IT has been a complete dissapointment because it just sucks up so much of you're time learning about new technologies, it never seems to pay off and you get treated like dirt

It's not all about the degree though. A lot of companies use the degree as a way to weed out a large proportion of applicants. After that it's down to the interview process and coding tests. That's where you really need to excel. I know a lot of very smart people who haven't gotten jobs they'd be great at because they interview badly or panic under the pressure of a timed coding test.

You're definitely right about the last part though. You have to be constantly keeping up to date with new technologies and techniques, usually without that newly-gained knowledge being reflected in your salary. Though in my case I usually enjoy trying out new technologies so it varies from person to person.

gubbie

batistuta9 wrote: »

I dunno tbh, i think the ones in the video above the guy created himself, i you get me, this is what you can build - instruction manual like regular lego - from what you buy http://mindstorms.lego.com/en-us/history/default.aspx

have a look around that site or online you might see something for girls

or you could program it to do something girly or whatever she's into

There's one of these going on adverts at the moment for the asking price of €200.

There's a company that runs day workshops and week long camps called LearnIt.

There's also Coderdojo. From what I know they do a mixture of everything including Scratch.

Sorry for all the links... I'll remove them if needed

I can't see programming coming in soon into the Irish system at all. After school clubs, yes, but not as a subject for a while. Problem is most teachers don't know how to code and most programmers don't know how to teach.

Duggys Housemate

If programming was taught in schools then IT companies would hire maths, physics or engineering graduates.

Dave!

Yes I think so. Not necessarily compulsory, but certainly an option.

tolosenc

What we need isn't more code, but better code. So not everyone should be forced to take more technical aspects of computing in school, but everyone should learn things like typing, and hooking up peripherals etc. Do that stuff in first year, then if you want to do JC computing, you learn things about hardware, and digital logic and maybe a bit of Python scripting. LC should be more about networking, server admin, and more serious programming.

That'd give a very good grounding for anyone who does or doesn't want to go on with computers.

The ability for one bad teacher for a year to turn you off something for life is a pretty big risk that would need to be considered. But computers are necessary for anyone who wants to do research in a science field. The ex was studying genetics, and the number of times I had to talk her through the basic Matlab code she needed was nuts.

I also like the idea of getting young kids playing with toys that get them thinking like programmers early on.

lidllady wrote: »

The job opportunities in IT are completely overexagerated IMO, I have a First Class Hons degree and I've found the jobs market and pay levels absolutely terrible. I even know one guy who graduated last year with a first class honours and 87% GPA and he still couldn't find ANY job :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: As a career IT has been a complete dissapointment because it just sucks up so much of you're time learning about new technologies, it never seems to pay off and you get treated like dirt

I both agree and disagree. I disagree in the sense that there are plenty of opportunities out there for people with computing backgrounds. I know a lot of the bigger companies out there are quite selective about who they hire. They use an Honours degree as a filter, but a lot of them will disregard people from certain 3rd level institutions (I don't know which ones) as they deem the course not up to standard. There are a lot of people being brought in to the country to fill technical jobs.

At the same time, the industry is over hyped. A lot of the big tech companies here employ people in technical or customer support roles, rather than the R&D roles that they are often made out to be. If you're happy to take your degree and work in a call centre, then there's a job for you.

seven_eleven

Something like HTML maybe? But to be honest maybe the more basics of computers should be taught, seeing as the majority of people dont even know how to uninstall programs, clear their web history, using an antivirus, or even just updating their computer when it prompts them to. Most of the time people just stand there almost looking insulted, dont read the popup, then click ignore.
And then 1 year down the line they will be crying and moaning when their laptop takes 30 minutes to start up and runs slower than a turtle.

IrishCule

seven_eleven wrote: »

Something like HTML maybe? But to be honest maybe the more basics of computers should be taught, seeing as the majority of people dont even know how to uninstall programs, clear their web history, using an antivirus, or even just updating their computer when it prompts them to. Most of the time people just stand there almost looking insulted, dont read the popup, then click ignore.
And then 1 year down the line they will be crying and moaning when their laptop takes 30 minutes to start up and runs slower than a turtle.

It's probably not a stretch to say that some of the "basic" stuff you just mentioned will eventually need to be taught. Especially with the rise in Cyber Security awareness.

Grayson

gubbie wrote: »

I can't see programming coming in soon into the Irish system at all. After school clubs, yes, but not as a subject for a while. Problem is most teachers don't know how to code and most programmers don't know how to teach.

Sad but true.

We had an option to pay extra money (i think it was £40) for 10 lessons in programming. There was one battered old olivetti I think. It ran dos 5. And we were taught Cobol.

I think it should be a leaving cert subject. Although there's no teachers who can teach it and no programmers who can teach, there won't be either until it's a subject on the leaving cert.
Once there's a syllabus, a school can (if they want to teach it) start looking for qualified teachers.

Grayson

lidllady wrote: »

The job opportunities in IT are completely overexagerated IMO, I have a First Class Hons degree and I've found the jobs market and pay levels absolutely terrible. I even know one guy who graduated last year with a first class honours and 87% GPA and he still couldn't find ANY job :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: As a career IT has been a complete dissapointment because it just sucks up so much of you're time learning about new technologies, it never seems to pay off and you get treated like dirt

Strange. I'm in a IT job and have no degree.

I know loads of people who are getting on fine with their degrees. I'd say an IT graduate is the one of the most most employable graduates there is (Obviously something like medicine would have a higher success rate, and probably a higher drop out rate).
And anytime I've ever gone job hunting there's always loads of jobs there.

Irish Steve

murphzor wrote: »

System.out.println("No, we need to teach more useful/important things like Irish and Religion");

NO. and NO to the above.

Networking / Programming is a very fast changing fast moving area that makes defining a valid syllabus for it almost impossible, and there are so many other variable, like operating systems, and concepts that change so quickly, the qualification would probably be out of date before it was even taken. It wouldn't suit some personalities, so for all of these reasons, no. The other aspect is that keeping the teachers up to date would be a nightmare, and teaching out of date products or concepts is counterproductive.

I've worked with computers for close on 40 years, and what I learnt in the early years is now so out of date, it's not even funny. The same applies to Languages, and operating systems. They change too often to make them a school subject.

As for the quote above, I would say that a far more important subject would be Home Systems, a short course with a course book that is kept by the student in how things in the home work, like Electrics, Gas, Water systems, Oil Heating, Phone and Broadband, Cable TV, CCTV systems, Access Control systems, basic simple stuff like "what to do if the power goes off", What is a circuit breaker, or a fuse board, How to read gas,electric and water meters, How to set up a computer on broadband, and more importantly, with graphic full colour photographs, what NOT to do, and WHY NOT, especially in relation to Gas safety, and also Electric Safety.

Even simple things like setting a time clock on heating, changing a tap washer, checking and replacing a fuse in a plug, There's a whole list of basic jobs that all of the people coming out of second level should be aware of and understand. That might help reduce the number of serious accidents with particularly Gas and Electricity, and also make it a lot harder for the cowboys that are unfortunately still out there to rip people off.

I'm not suggesting that they should be taught too much, but enough to know the basics, and more importantly enough to know when NOT to try and sort out the fault or problem, but to call in the right professional to sort it.

philologos

Karsini wrote: »

I don't see why really. Not everyone would be interested in this as a career path and that's mainly what it would be. Especially writing software - you need the right sort of head for it, it's not something that just anyone could do.

I loved coding as a teenager. I started getting into programming properly as a result of my own curiosity.

To have done this as an academic subject, and to have actually got some form of appreciation for it would have done a world of good and if taught well would have progressed my understanding.

I think it's daft to say that because a few people don't want to do it that it shouldn't be a subject at all.

What about those of us who did want to do it but never got the chance?

Irish Steve: C# and .NET have been around for 10 years, Java has been around since 1995, C++ since the 1980's, C since the early 70's. It doesn't really change all that often. The same is true about TCP / IP, routing and other things.

JJJJNR

No should not be a subject, but iP subnetting etc could be taught as part of the maths curriculum.

philologos

JJJJNR wrote: »

No should not be a subject, but iP subnetting etc could be taught as part of the maths curriculum.

I'm really curious about this, why not?

Grayson

Irish Steve wrote: »

NO. and NO to the above.

Networking / Programming is a very fast changing fast moving area that makes defining a valid syllabus for it almost impossible, and there are so many other variable, like operating systems, and concepts that change so quickly, the qualification would probably be out of date before it was even taken. It wouldn't suit some personalities, so for all of these reasons, no. The other aspect is that keeping the teachers up to date would be a nightmare, and teaching out of date products or concepts is counterproductive.

see, I don't think anyone is suggesting it should be compulsary. It'd be like physics or chemistry. So only people who had an aptitude would do it.

As for it being out of date, i doubt it. You'd be teaching to a level equivalent to the end of a first year course with some other bits and bobs thrown in. You'd need to update the course every 5, maybe 10 years. 5 years ago first years were studying java in just about every college course, and in 5 years they probably will again.

If they change it substantially after 10 years, they can plan ahead and get the teachers to recertify. The same as they do in the IT industry or anything else like nursing where stuff changes.

It's not a qualification. It's like doing physics for the leaving. How many went on to become physicists based on the leaving cert? Leaving cert anything isn't a qualification. They all go on to college where they take physics. Or they dump it and never use it again. The same with programming.

That's not to say that there shouldn't be a basic course in stuff like how to use a search engine. How to avoid spam emails and protect your computer etc... But that would be more of they type of thing that should be wedged into a home economics course. And it's the kind of thing that would go out of date far more than the programming course.

JJJJNR

More I think about it, I think there should be taught subject that covers computing as subject, similar to woodwork, its a lot more practical and would be a real life skill much like a trade, should be an option from 1st year.

Peregrine

Karsini wrote: »

I don't see why really. Not everyone would be interested in this as a career path and that's mainly what it would be. Especially writing software - you need the right sort of head for it, it's not something that just anyone could do.

You know that the only compulsory subjects are Irish, Maths English + foreign language right? If programming was brought it as an option, like Biology or Physics thousands of people who is interested in computers and would do it, myself included. Sure if they got 5,500 students to study Higher Level Agricultural Science in 2012, I don't see why programming wouldn't prosper.

WoollyRedHat

orestes wrote: »

What, like foundation level facebook or something? Cos I know a few people who would fail that one.

Like, totes.