Should programming/networking be a leaving cert subject?

theidiots

Should programming/networking be a leaving cert subject?

orestes

What, like foundation level facebook or something? Cos I know a few people who would fail that one.

I don't see why really. Not everyone would be interested in this as a career path and that's mainly what it would be. Especially writing software - you need the right sort of head for it, it's not something that just anyone could do.

amacca

theidiots wrote: »

Should programming/networking be a leaving cert subject?

behaving yourself and making a proper effort should be a leaving cert subject


it should be compulsory to get at least a B in it in order to progress through the system


there could also be a compulsory short module in the new JC programme entitled "how to shut the fcuk up and listen"

Fannyhead

No

LETHAL LADY

I was taught programming in the early 90s when I was in 5th year, on an IBM computer as part of computer studies. The teaching method was fairly simplistic, but to be fair it gave me a basic understanding of programming.
Do they not teach programming these days?

Bipolar Joe

Karsini wrote: »

I don't see why really. Not everyone would be interested in this as a career path and that's mainly what it would be. Especially writing software - you need the right sort of head for it, it's not something that just anyone could do.

Not everyone is interested in chemistry or physics based careers, you gotta do them. And yes, pretty much anyone can do those things, it's a bullshit get-out for people who don't want to learn saying you "Need the right head for it."

MadsL

Ah the days when we used to be able to run this in BASIC

10 PRINT "ANDY IS A PENIS"
20 GOTO 10

Monitor screen scrolling all day

Where To

DERR 144

murphzor

System.out.println("No, we need to teach more useful/important things like Irish and Religion");

blueturnip

Yes it should.

When I was I school I didn't even know you could do courses in computers in college.

It's what I do now after going the long way round.

Bring back Logo turtle.

DEFTLEFTHAND

If they taught basic computer skills I'd be happy. I went to secondary school in the early to mid 00s and our computer classes were a complete joke, after a while they completely ceased to happen for some reason. Anything I know is self taught.

Typing for instance is something that needs to be taught at a young age, whether we like it or not it's now an important life skill.

Programming/website development/coding should be taught - it's where all the money is being made lately.

Where To

I think this should be a leaving cert subject.

i am awsome

show.println("This is genius, it defenetly should, I started a year ago, and it's awesome!!!");

LETHAL LADY

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

If they taught basic computer skills I'd be happy. I went to secondary school in the early to mid 00s and our computer classes were a complete joke, after a while they completely ceased to happen for some reason. Anything I know is self taught.

Typing for instance is something that needs to be taught at a young age, whether we like it or not it's now an important life skill.

I was taught typing skills by typing things like "Dad ate a salad" over and over again. WTF

Artful_Badger

A subject like programming wouldnt just give people an understanding of programming. It would be great for the development of problem solving, logical thinking and all that jazz.

It should be taught in place of waste of time subjects like religion and Irish.

Bipolar Joe

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

And yes, pretty much anyone can do those things, it's a bullshit get-out for people who don't want to learn saying you "Need the right head for it."

Some people can barely turn on a computer, let alone write software for one. I know a 24 year old girl who couldn't text until a couple of years ago.

KyussBishop

Anyone who starts learning to program only after they are 18+, is going to be useless at programming for quite some time (particularly when trying to start off getting a job); definitely something that would be better introduced at an early age in school, and a potentially good way to improve peoples critical thinking abilities in certain aspects.

theidiots

There's thousands upon thousands of jobs in SQL. Surely bull crap courses like Home EC, geography(no more than enough at junior cert) or even thought at junior cert would be more beneficial. College courses these days are a joke. I don't mean that everyone should be made do them. I mean that people should have a choice.

Bipolar Joe

Karsini wrote: »

Some people can barely turn on a computer, let alone write software for one. I know a 24 year old girl who couldn't text until a couple of years ago.

Is that because she appears to have some sort of mental deficiency, blocking her ability to use technology, or because she was never taught?

SilverScreen

murphzor wrote: »

System.out.println("No, we need to teach more useful/important things like Irish and Religion");

agree++;

I think there should be an optional leaving cert module that teaches the basics of programming, networking and web development. This kind of stuff is just as essential in 21st century Ireland as learning physics or maths. I didn't learn Java programming until I started college and even for the first couple of years I was still trying to get my head around the concepts of it. The only real foundation I had for it was the logical thinking of leaving cert maths. I think teaching the basics of a language like Java or C++ would be hugely beneficial for those looking to study Software Engineering or other IT-related courses at 3rd level.

Bipolar Joe

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

Is that because she appears to have some sort of mental deficiency, blocking her ability to use technology, or because she was never taught?

I suppose the AH answer would be that she's American. :pac: She just has no interest in technology, didn't need it nor did she care.

Bipolar Joe

Zero1986 wrote: »

agree++;

I think there should be an optional leaving cert module that teaches the basics of programming, networking and web development. This kind of stuff is just as essential in 21st century Ireland as learning physics or maths. I didn't learn Java programming until I started college and even for the first couple of years I was still trying to get my head around the concepts of it. The only real foundation I had for it was the logical thinking of leaving cert maths. I think teaching the basics of a language like Java or C++ would be hugely beneficial for those looking to study Software Engineering or other IT-related courses at 3rd level.

I've been trying to convince my parents to enrol my kid Sister in an after-school lesson to learn the bare basics. I think that, in a world already pretty much run on technology, if you can't do anything beyond use the future version of Facebook in ten years time you're gonna have trouble doing most anything work related.

theidiots

Zero1986 wrote: »

agree++;

I think there should be an optional leaving cert module that teaches the basics of programming, networking and web development. This kind of stuff is just as essential in 21st century Ireland as learning physics or maths. I didn't learn Java programming until I started college and even for the first couple of years I was still trying to get my head around the concepts of it. The only real foundation I had for it was the logical thinking of leaving cert maths. I think teaching the basics of a language like Java or C++ would be hugely beneficial for those looking to study Software Engineering or other IT-related courses at 3rd level.

Third level courses for IT,computer science are nearly dead now as they are worthless. Basically what employees want is people who are proficent in one or two areas. Better off getting your microsoft SQL/C++ certs, Cisco certs, oracle certs, externall C++ and Java certs etc to have a better chance of employment

Bipolar Joe

Karsini wrote: »

I suppose the AH answer would be that she's American. :pac: She just has no interest in technology, didn't need it nor did she care.

The kids of today will need it, at the very least in a basic level. Also, like other users have said, it doesn't just teach you practical things like making apps, so on, it vastly improves your problem solving and logic. On a practical level, being able to write software for something you need that isn't available would increase productivity and workflow. At the moment I'm teaching myself Python for 3D graphic design, because doing the same repetitive procedures stifles my workflow. I could do so much more, much quicker.

On another note, as a country which is in the pit financially, having non-destructive resources like programming houses set up in Ireland might just help pull us out of the hole we're in. We mightn't be able to churn out code like Korean programme shops, but there's enough smart people here making a pretty penny for themselves by making simple smartphone apps.

SilverScreen

theidiots wrote: »

Third level courses for IT,computer science are nearly dead now as they are worthless. Basically what employees want is people who are proficent in one or two areas. Better off getting your microsoft certs, ccna certs, oracle certs, externall C++ and Java certs etc to have a better chance of employment

I disagree. 3rd level courses in IT are probably more relevant than they've ever been. The problem is is that some IT courses are out-dated and not producing graduates to the standards that companies would expect. The chances of getting a job in software with only an Oracle cert and no degree is still pretty low, unless you have a good portfolio or something. A lot of software companies still expect you to have a good honours degree or even a masters. But in addition an Oracle cert would also be an advantage.

IrishCule

Definitely. I really wish someone had the foresight to get some type of subject like this into the schools a few years ago. Having some programming experience in 4th and 5th would go along way to giving people a head start in college and also to see if its something they really want to do.

Alot of people go into a CS degree and drop out, that would go down alot if people could get a taste before college.

College degrees need to be improved too. I have to think that getting some certs should be part of your degree. I don't know how it would work out cost wise though.

JRant

Like any language, it's best aquired at a young age. The ability to write even a simple piece of code is well within most peoples capabilities.
Wrt networking, simply teach linux in schools instead of this ridiculous windows obsession.

GavinFlud

theidiots wrote: »

Third level courses for IT,computer science are nearly dead now as they are worthless. Basically what employees want is people who are proficent in one or two areas. Better off getting your microsoft SQL/C++ certs, Cisco certs, oracle certs, externall C++ and Java certs etc to have a better chance of employment

I both agree and disagree with what you've said.

On the one hand, a lot of people who actually graduate with degrees in CS or SE never end up working in that field, simply because they are no where near good enough or don't have the relevant certs for certain jobs. This is all mainly due to huge numbers of people jumping on the SE bandwagon because that's where the jobs are. If these companies can't find Irish graduates good enough to fill their jobs, they'll gladly look at graduates from other companies.

On the other hand, there is most certainly jobs out there for talented graduates from CS and SE courses. The only thing is that nobody's going to get a job based solely on the fact that they managed to graduate. Companies want to see side-projects, contributions to open-source projects and a genuine knowledge of SE.

In relation to OP's original question, I'd like to see things like programming and computer engineering taught in schools, even at a basic level. The kids that like it have the option of continuing in that field, while the ones who don't can just ditch it after their exams like we do with most other subjects.

theidiots

GavinFlud wrote: »

I both agree and disagree with what you've said.

On the one hand, a lot of people who actually graduate with degrees in CS or SE never end up working in that field, simply because they are no where near good enough or don't have the relevant certs for certain jobs. This is all mainly due to huge numbers of people jumping on the SE bandwagon because that's where the jobs are. If these companies can't find Irish graduates good enough to fill their jobs, they'll gladly look at graduates from other companies.

On the other hand, there is most certainly jobs out there for talented graduates from CS and SE courses. The only thing is that nobody's going to get a job based solely on the fact that they managed to graduate. Companies want to see side-projects, contributions to open-source projects and a genuine knowledge of SE.

In relation to OP's original question, I'd like to see things like programming and computer engineering taught in schools, even at a basic level. The kids that like it have the option of continuing in that field, while the ones who don't can just ditch it after their exams like we do with most other subjects.

I agree and there is a lot of talented individuals who have amazing final year projects, work on side projects or tell the employer that they will work for free for a month to prove their worth.

Programming thought from primary school we would have some mad heads:pac:

JRant

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

I've been trying to convince my parents to enrol my kid Sister in an after-school lesson to learn the bare basics. I think that, in a world already pretty much run on technology, if you can't do anything beyond use the future version of Facebook in ten years time you're gonna have trouble doing most anything work related.

I volunteered for a while in an after school club to teach young kids how to use Lego Mindstorm. The kids get to build lego machines and then programme them using the mindstorm interface. It's a really good way to introduce while loops, for loops, if statements and the kids pick it up incredibly quickly. Definitely worth a look into for ur sis.

GavinFlud

theidiots wrote: »

I agree and there is a lot of talented individuals who have amazing final year projects, work on side projects or tell the employer that they will work for free for a month to prove their worth.

Programming thought from primary school we would have some mad heads:pac:

To be fair, if someone is willing to work for free for a month that would be a major red flag for me in terms of their actual talent. Likewise, if a company is looking to hire someone without having to pay them for a month's work then I'd be definitely steering well clear of that company.

You're right though, the main problem we'd have if kids were taught programming from primary school would be a massive increase in the number of space cadets who think they're the world's best programmer but in reality couldn't tell you what a compiler is.

Bipolar Joe

JRant wrote: »

I volunteered for a while in an after school club to teach young kids how to use Lego Mindstorm. The kids get to build lego machines and then programme them using the mindstorm interface. It's a really good way to introduce while loops, for loops, if statements and the kids pick it up incredibly quickly. Definitely worth a look into for ur sis.

Deadly idea, didn't know this even existed. Cheers, man!

BrianG23

Should be optional. I certainly would have done it if I could

theidiots

I tried that but my criminal record of touching rats in there funny place wouldn't let me near a school :mad:

gubbie

theidiots wrote: »

... Home EC, geography(no more than enough at junior cert) or even thought at junior cert would be more beneficial. College courses these days are a joke. I don't mean that everyone should be made do them. I mean that people should have a choice.

Step 1 to life is being able to feed and look after yourself. Everyone should do home ec.

I think programming should be a LC subject, but not a mandatory one.

There's also 3 different programming competitions at the moment going on in Cork.

Duggys Housemate

gubbie wrote: »

Step 1 to life is being able to feed and look after yourself. Everyone should do home ec.

I think programming should be a LC subject, but not a mandatory one.

Home E does not need to be an examined course. But let's teach people to cook.

batistuta9

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

Deadly idea, didn't know this even existed. Cheers, man!

They're a bit expensive enough though, + it's hacked for Java (maybe others too) if you want to move away from the drag-drop blocks that's used to program them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXiql8Fm64A

Bipolar Joe

batistuta9 wrote: »

They're a bit expensive enough though, + it's hacked for Java (maybe others too) if you want to move away from the drag-drop blocks that's used to program them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXiql8Fm64A

Are there any that might be more appealing to girls? All the ones I've seen so far are "Build this truck!" or whatever.

lidllady

The job opportunities in IT are completely overexagerated IMO, I have a First Class Hons degree and I've found the jobs market and pay levels absolutely terrible. I even know one guy who graduated last year with a first class honours and 87% GPA and he still couldn't find ANY job :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: As a career IT has been a complete dissapointment because it just sucks up so much of you're time learning about new technologies, it never seems to pay off and you get treated like dirt

batistuta9

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

Are there any that might be more appealing to girls? All the ones I've seen so far are "Build this truck!" or whatever.

I dunno tbh, i think the ones in the video above the guy created himself, i you get me, this is what you can build - instruction manual like regular lego - from what you buy http://mindstorms.lego.com/en-us/history/default.aspx

have a look around that site or online you might see something for girls

or you could program it to do something girly or whatever she's into

Capt'n Midnight

if they don't teach the right type of programming then the kids may need to be de-programmed before they can be of use as a programmer

ie. it's may be easier to learn object orientated programming if you haven't been stuck learning basic or whatever it is that teachers know , because they aren't going to hire in competent programmers to do the teaching

GavinFlud

lidllady wrote: »

The job opportunities in IT are completely overexagerated IMO, I have a First Class Hons degree and I've found the jobs market and pay levels absolutely terrible. I even know one guy who graduated last year with a first class honours and 87% GPA and he still couldn't find ANY job :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: As a career IT has been a complete dissapointment because it just sucks up so much of you're time learning about new technologies, it never seems to pay off and you get treated like dirt

It's not all about the degree though. A lot of companies use the degree as a way to weed out a large proportion of applicants. After that it's down to the interview process and coding tests. That's where you really need to excel. I know a lot of very smart people who haven't gotten jobs they'd be great at because they interview badly or panic under the pressure of a timed coding test.

You're definitely right about the last part though. You have to be constantly keeping up to date with new technologies and techniques, usually without that newly-gained knowledge being reflected in your salary. Though in my case I usually enjoy trying out new technologies so it varies from person to person.

gubbie

batistuta9 wrote: »

I dunno tbh, i think the ones in the video above the guy created himself, i you get me, this is what you can build - instruction manual like regular lego - from what you buy http://mindstorms.lego.com/en-us/history/default.aspx

have a look around that site or online you might see something for girls

or you could program it to do something girly or whatever she's into

There's one of these going on adverts at the moment for the asking price of €200.

There's a company that runs day workshops and week long camps called LearnIt.

There's also Coderdojo. From what I know they do a mixture of everything including Scratch.

Sorry for all the links... I'll remove them if needed

I can't see programming coming in soon into the Irish system at all. After school clubs, yes, but not as a subject for a while. Problem is most teachers don't know how to code and most programmers don't know how to teach.

Duggys Housemate

If programming was taught in schools then IT companies would hire maths, physics or engineering graduates.

Dave!

Yes I think so. Not necessarily compulsory, but certainly an option.

tolosenc

What we need isn't more code, but better code. So not everyone should be forced to take more technical aspects of computing in school, but everyone should learn things like typing, and hooking up peripherals etc. Do that stuff in first year, then if you want to do JC computing, you learn things about hardware, and digital logic and maybe a bit of Python scripting. LC should be more about networking, server admin, and more serious programming.

That'd give a very good grounding for anyone who does or doesn't want to go on with computers.

The ability for one bad teacher for a year to turn you off something for life is a pretty big risk that would need to be considered. But computers are necessary for anyone who wants to do research in a science field. The ex was studying genetics, and the number of times I had to talk her through the basic Matlab code she needed was nuts.

I also like the idea of getting young kids playing with toys that get them thinking like programmers early on.

lidllady wrote: »

The job opportunities in IT are completely overexagerated IMO, I have a First Class Hons degree and I've found the jobs market and pay levels absolutely terrible. I even know one guy who graduated last year with a first class honours and 87% GPA and he still couldn't find ANY job :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: As a career IT has been a complete dissapointment because it just sucks up so much of you're time learning about new technologies, it never seems to pay off and you get treated like dirt

I both agree and disagree. I disagree in the sense that there are plenty of opportunities out there for people with computing backgrounds. I know a lot of the bigger companies out there are quite selective about who they hire. They use an Honours degree as a filter, but a lot of them will disregard people from certain 3rd level institutions (I don't know which ones) as they deem the course not up to standard. There are a lot of people being brought in to the country to fill technical jobs.

At the same time, the industry is over hyped. A lot of the big tech companies here employ people in technical or customer support roles, rather than the R&D roles that they are often made out to be. If you're happy to take your degree and work in a call centre, then there's a job for you.

seven_eleven

Something like HTML maybe? But to be honest maybe the more basics of computers should be taught, seeing as the majority of people dont even know how to uninstall programs, clear their web history, using an antivirus, or even just updating their computer when it prompts them to. Most of the time people just stand there almost looking insulted, dont read the popup, then click ignore.
And then 1 year down the line they will be crying and moaning when their laptop takes 30 minutes to start up and runs slower than a turtle.

IrishCule

seven_eleven wrote: »

Something like HTML maybe? But to be honest maybe the more basics of computers should be taught, seeing as the majority of people dont even know how to uninstall programs, clear their web history, using an antivirus, or even just updating their computer when it prompts them to. Most of the time people just stand there almost looking insulted, dont read the popup, then click ignore.
And then 1 year down the line they will be crying and moaning when their laptop takes 30 minutes to start up and runs slower than a turtle.

It's probably not a stretch to say that some of the "basic" stuff you just mentioned will eventually need to be taught. Especially with the rise in Cyber Security awareness.