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Poll in After Hours by Anti's on Hare Coursing.
Comments
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I'll start with this post;
My apologies. You quoted my entire post instead of multi-quoting, and i read your response outside of that quote which said "what load of one sided crap". I thought it was referring to my post. i did not see your responses in my post until you edited them to highlight them. So apologies.
Apologies, I was om my phone and didn't think about how awful that response would be to read. Should have tried to make it clearer.
I was referring to the polite conversation between myself, and Cocolola. Might be a few more than 10 or even a few less, but i was referring to what kind of conversation/debate is needed. It's a rarity to ba able to discuss it without name calling.
I did see those but it was the earlier posts that got my hackles up. Your right it is a rarity and that's a pity, it needs to happen more, for me it's not about trying to change people's opinions, I just want to understand the other side and try to see if there is some sort of middle ground that can be reached for both parties.No doubt, and they are to be commended for their hard work.
However i am referring to groups that claim to be all for the welfare of animals, then act improperly and cause problems. Such as the breaking into the mink farm, and release of thousands of mink into the countryside. They saw this as a victory, Now hunters are being employed, and asked to actively hunt these mink as they are devastating our natural fauna. Action without though of consequence.
You will have no disagreement with me there and I have started I understand why hunters/coursers do not want to engage with these people in anyway. They are extremists and I personally feel that they are doing more harm than good to their causes although I share some of their sentiments. I would like to see hunters and coursers dispel some of the myths and that's why I would like to see them let TV cameras into meets, show that they have nothing to hide. For hunters to show how well they treat their dogs and how they are looking after our countryside and helping. The fact that like you said hunters are being employed to remove the mink that were released should be publicised, that is good work that is being done but I haven't heard a thing about it.I would love to be able to get my points across, and listen to rebuttals or "their side". If only they were as reasoned as the few (yourself included) that have posted here tonight. However years of previous dealings with them have shown this not to be the case or possible.[\QUOTE]
The funny thing is I feel exactly the same way about hunters/coursers and a few others with regards to animal welfare
.I in no way defend or would try to defend the actions of any hunter that acts irresponsibly or without thought for their actions. Yes, they also give us a black eye with their actions. However they are not seeking to destroy our way of life. Plus the law will deal with the hunters. As firearms owners the Gardaí know everything, and i mean everything about us. These extremists are anonymous posters, bar a few public figures, that slander us with outrageous names, and accusations.
Fair point, it's unfair for people to be making accusations particularly slanderous ones while they remain faceless. However the vast majority of those I know in animal welfare are in no way involved in any of this and would have no personal vendetta against people involvled in coursing or hunting, although the vast majority would be against the latter. However like I said I have seen hunting dogs come in a very bad state, enormous vets bills and never claimed by their owners, I know a rescue that had serious trouble with hunters illegally hunting on their land and killing cats that were living happily for years on the rescues land as they weren't re-home forable for whatever reason. Of a hunt that went on someones property despite their objection and their hounds killed a number of rescue cats.I have many more stories like this. And that is their main issue with hunters.
Their main issue with coursers, is that they (and myself) believe that it is wrong for an animal to suffer for human entertainment and have you ever tried to re-home a blooded dog, these dogs aren't kept as pets after they retire and trying to re-home a greyhound in the country is hard enough due to people believing that they need lots of exercise, that they are inhertently viscous and that they don't make good pets that they are being sent to the UK, the US, Canade and Italy on a regular basis in order to find them homes. Then you have to discount anyone with a small dog or cat, and then you have to tell people that the dog will have to be wearing a muzzle whenever they go for walks and that they will try and kill any small dog or cat they see.
More greyhounds are put down in Irish pounds each year than any other breed, and it's not because they are being bred in puppy farms they are the waste product of sports that no longer have any use for them, and is as much a waste of tax payer money as those minks that were released, if not more so because this goes on year in and year out. The greyhound racing industry is to blame for a lot of this but blooded dogs are a common occurrence in rescue.
Absolutely agree that you are providing an invaluable service.I don't know. There is more than hunters involved in fox hunting. We provide a service for land owners, farmers, and the Government in the form of population control, and livestock protection. It is afforded no protection other than basic animal rights in relation to humane dispatch, etc.Agreed. See above.[\QUOTE]As were we. We would welcome the resumption of reasoned, and level headed debate, but thus far have gotten nothing.
Not to dismiss it, but we will not know until it's passed. I doubt it myself, but thought the same about Stag Hunt. [\QUOTE]
I don't think it will pass either, this time, but I do think that there is very real support behind this and while they are the loudest the extremists are only a very small portion of those that oppose it.For years hunters, and field sports people kept their heads down, did not engage in any sort of rebuttal of accusations, and definitely not on any sort of meaningful or sustained level. All the while letters, e-mails, Tweets, messages on Facebook were being sent out saying how hunters were involved in the most horrible of offences. When we looked into it they were "normal" events or situations blown completely out of proportion to invoke sympathy for their cause.
Do you have any examples of this I could look at, not questioning, just interested.
I don't know, I do not attend these meets, nor am I involved in the movement to get them banned. However there is very clear proof that this is happening, I have seen it.Then at these meets why does someone not reprot it to the Gardaí. If they are breaking the law then the Gardaí will deal with it.Their choice. I don't get Cycling, Cricket, Horse racing, Greyhound racing. Yet i don't call for a ban. I leave the people to their sport.
Do you have any reason to? Do you believe that these people are doing something wrong? When you see a game of cricket does it offend you and make you sick to your stomach? It's not really about not getting it it's about inherently believing that what is happening is wrong.I know the program, and watched it myself. However i have to repeat my previous comments about being stung before, and being overly cautious. When you get the same treatment for so long it's hard to break a trend. Same with the poll on AH. Previously such polls would swing in favour of the "anti" view. However when any hunter voted we were accused of orchestrating some sort of mass voting. Not the case.
Okay I do get the overly cautious part, but the only way that you are going to change people's minds or at the very least get them to see your point of view is to let them see exactly what it is, most of the population have probably never seen a coursing event. Hiding it is only going to further fuel the fire. And in fairness with the whole AH thing, yes was winning by quite a bit before this thread was started so you can't blame people for questioning it IMHO.Not being smart, but we simply outnumber most groups if not all of them. So when we take the time to actually "put pen to paper" (which we do not always do) we can show what we think, and unlike others that would vote and stay sitting in their chair in their front room, we vote because it effects us directly. I mean if hare coursing or fox hunting was banned would it have any direct effect on your life (other than your feelings towards it). For most of us it would mean thousands of Euro in "wasted" firearms, lost birds from breeding programs, lost money from membership to clubs, and through insurance, etc.
Big numbers means more lobbying power you are right. But I do believe that it is only a matter of time before its banned, we are only one do three countries in Europe that still allow it. No it wouldn't effect me personally, I will be honest, but nobody talking about an all out ban in field sports. Just coursing, I don't believe that it should be kept going for any reason, be it money, tradition, culture.0 -
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I am not involved in coursing so cannot speak to anything o their behalf. At the risk of repeating myself the level of distrust is still to high for them to believe that any documentary, program or viewing by outside sources would be unbiased.meoklmrk91 wrote: »I would like to see hunters and coursers dispel some of the myths and that's why I would like to see them let TV cameras into meets, show that they have nothing to hide. For hunters to show how well they treat their dogs and how they are looking after our countryside and helping.
It gets a inch or two in a column, on the back pages of local papers. The only new reporting on it was last week in the daily mail when they admitted it was a huge problem, and needed more extensive solution.The fact that like you said hunters are being employed to remove the mink that were released should be publicised, that is good work that is being done but I haven't heard a thing about it.
These are the people that need help, support, media exposure, and financing. However they most times get mixed in with other groups (whether associated to them or not) that people do not support, and suffer as a result.However the vast majority of those I know in animal welfare are in no way involved in any of this and would have no personal vendetta against people involvled in coursing or hunting . ........
In relation to the dogs, and rehoming, i can fully understand such issues, and it's not just hunters. Other people not associated to hunters can be equally as cruel. However this is not the forum or place for such a debate (would need a thread of it's own).
There are TDs that would support such a thing based on their own opinion. They are in a position to do something about it. So it's possible in the future, but it will not, if passed, do so quickly or easily.I don't think it will pass either, this time, but I do think that there is very real support behind this and while they are the loudest the extremists are only a very small portion of those that oppose it.
God, that could take some time. Will try and source some of them and post here when i get them.Do you have any examples of this I could look at, not questioning, just interested.
Not being a smart arse, but if there is then report such things. This is my point about "baseless accusations". If people are breaking the law then they deserve the punishment they receive. Sitting back knowing, or saying it's happening and doing nothing is as bad as being directly involved themselves. However the lack of reports or lack of arrest/prosecutions would make me wonder at the validity of such claims. I mean any group, extremist or not, with solid proof should be drooling at the prospect of shutting down an event they dislike.However there is very clear proof that this is happening, I have seen it.
Yeah, but again a topic for another thread/forum.When you see a game of cricket does it offend you and make you sick to your stomach?
I understand what you are saying, and my examples are piss poor. However my point is there are things in this world that i don't agree with, and dislike however i do not make it my business to try and actively destroy it. Especially if it's legal. Like horse racing. Sitting on top of a horse, and whipping the arse of it to make it run in a circle for entertaiment. I don't get it, don't understand it, and don't like it. However i respect the rights of people that do love it, and respect their legal right to take part, and enjoy their sport. BTW i'm not a horse fan. Don't trust them. They are sneaky at the front, and back and devious in between.It's not really about not getting it it's about inherently believing that what is happening is wrong. (going to get grief now for using horse racing instead of something else as my example)
Possibly. However you will not dispel years of mistrust on both sides anytime soon.Okay I do get the overly cautious part, but the only way that you are going to change people's minds or at the very least get them to see your point of view is to let them see exactly what it is, most of the population have probably never seen a coursing event. Hiding it is only going to further fuel the fire
The two times i checked it was by 10% then 3%, and they were before 2pm today.And in fairness with the whole AH thing, yes was winning by quite a bit before this thread was started so you can't blame people for questioning it IMHO.
That aside i still do not like the attitude of some people involved. The attitude was that hunters are somehow are less entitled to vote because they hunt. Would it not stand to reason that those opposed to hunting/coursing should not vote either. I mean did you vote? Was it yes or no? Surely your opinions are going to bias your vote. The end result was more for coursing voted than against. Shows that more people for coursing took the time to vote. Back to bigger numbers. We have them. That's not a brag it's a fact.
It's the same when it comes to writing to papers, sites, etc. where similar debates are going on. Were we to get 1% of the entire field sport people to respond it would Dwarf the number the write in to support an anti hunting view point. The only difference between us and them is their ability to make a sustained campaign of writing. Ask sometime about the 2% rule.
If it were to be banned i would like to think it was after a long, and detailed study of the sport. not due to political pressure to follow suit. Ireland ha a reputation of following the PR line, and ignoring the ones that do not suit.......... we are only one do three countries in Europe that still allow it.
There is the thing, and i touched on it with Cocolola. Today it's coursing, tomorrow foxing, next day deer hunting. As Cocolola pointed out it's mandated by their very name. So this is not only about coursing, and it's the reason why all hunters will support their fellow sportsmen/women. They know to have a "mé fein" attittude is short sighted, and self serving.No it wouldn't effect me personally, I will be honest, but nobody talking about an all out ban in field sports. Just coursing, I don't believe that it should be kept going for any reason, be it money, tradition, culture.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.
Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo
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They do have their own forum charter in AH and it differs substantially from ours - read it before posting there, okay folks? I'm pretty confident that we're not the problem, so let's not appear as such. If someone there breaks the charter, don't respond in kind, just do what we keep asking you guys to do in here (you might have noticed this in the signatures of the mods):
please use the report button (it's this one :
) and then let the moderators deal with it! 0 -
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