Dr Lydia Foy new case.

minidazzler

drunkmonkey wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with the state spending money protecting the definition of a woman.
He should not be issued with a birth cert of an Irish woman he is not one. How it's against his human rights is beyond me.

Yes, yes it is. Which is why you should probably just step out of the thread since you don't understand.

I can see why she would want to be recognised by the state as a woman, but changing the Birth Cert seems like it's probably the wrong move to me. She WAS Born a male and her Birth Cert reflects just that, her birth, in a male body.

MadsL

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Who asks for a birth certificate from someone? When was the last time you were asked to provide one? I don't think I've even seen mine.

Try getting a visa sometime. Or a passport. Or adopting. Or getting married.

gurramok

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Who asks for a birth certificate from someone? When was the last time you were asked to provide one? I don't think I've even seen mine.

Employers do. A lot of employers would(and do) discriminate against transgendered people if they knew a persons gendered past. Its none of their business really as your gender should not affect your ability to do a job.

MadsL

minidazzler wrote: »

Yes, yes it is. Which is why you should probably just step out of the thread since you don't understand.

Step out? He's just been banhammered out of it. You may find him quiet from here on.

minidazzler

MadsL wrote: »

Step out? He's just been banhammered out of it. You may find him quiet from here on.

Whoops, had barely read the thread when that was posted :pac:

But yeah, my position is she is a woman now and should be recognised as such, but Birth Certs are nothing but Historical records and at Birth she was male, there is no need to change that, though, she should be entitled to change any current documents to recognise her current gender. (Passport, Drivers Licence, Insurance Certs etc.)

But her Birth Cert should remain as it was, or maybe with an appendix stuck on detailing that Gender was changed and she is now recognised as a woman,

astrofool

The problem is that birth certs are not used as a historical document and are instead used as an ongoing means to identify ones self, in which case, Lydia Foy, should be able to alter that.

The correct fix would be that another document would be used to identify ones self, and the birth cert should be left alone, unless it was found to be declaring false information at the time (e.g. father being incorrectly identified).

Jimoslimos

MadsL wrote: »

The point is that there is a reasonable expectation of privacy under Article 8 of the ECHR. Why should the world at large be shown proof of Dr Foy's gender reassignment every time she uses her BC. Whose damn business is it?

Well for obvious reasons medical professionals would need to know.

Ethically you could argue any sexual partner should also be informed.

Grand Moff Tarkin

The only laws being messed around here are the laws of nature. No good can ever come from any of this.

seamus

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

No good can ever come from any of this.

Except people's happiness, perhaps?

What bad can possibly come of this?

Well for obvious reasons medical professionals would need to know.

I don't believe a medical professional at present has a legal right to know a patient's medical history. You'd just be an idiot to deny it.

Ethically you could argue any sexual partner should also be informed.

Yes and no. It's a private matter. Otherwise you could also argue that a sexual partner has a right to know someone's sexual history - current & previous STDs, other partners, previous pregnancies, etc.

Jimoslimos

gurramok wrote: »

Employers do. A lot of employers would(and do) discriminate against transgendered people if they knew a persons gendered past. Its none of their business really as your gender should not affect your ability to do a job.

And the answer to discrimination isn't to sidestep the issue and hope to sneak under the radar.

Slutmonkey57b

gurramok wrote: »

Employers do. A lot of employers would(and do) discriminate against transgendered people if they knew a persons gendered past. Its none of their business really as your gender should not affect your ability to do a job.

No employer has ever asked me for a birth certificate. Or a passport. Or a driving licence. Nobody I know has ever been asked for any of those documents. I've never seen that requirement on a job listing.

You're talking nonsense.

Any private enterprise has to abide by data protection. It is illegal for them to ask for information or documentation which is not relevant to the purpose of their business with you.

Slutmonkey57b

MadsL wrote: »

Try getting a visa sometime. Or a passport. Or adopting. Or getting married.

Which are all state business. And the state already knows your records have changed. So your concerns in this case are irrelevant.

MadsL

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Which are all state business. And the state already knows your records have changed. So your concerns in this case are irrelevant.

In a dusty records office. Not at a public counter with some barely out of teens clerk sniggering.

Tell you what, if this is so non-invasive go get a STD test and staple the results to your birth cert. See how you feel pushing it under the glass window at the bank.

CreepingDeath

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

No employer has ever asked me for a birth certificate. Or a passport. Or a driving licence. Nobody I know has ever been asked for any of those documents. I've never seen that requirement on a job listing.

It happens when you need security clearances for your company or for one of the companies clients.

It won't be listed as "we want a passport", probably more under the general term of "security clearances".

padd b1975

MadsL wrote: »

Lovely. Legally a female according to her passport, denied a marriage.

Dr.Foy is unable to marry a man due to the fact that he too was born a man.
You cannot be reborn despite what the Hindus might tell you.

Very condescending, transexuals cannot be Christians
huh?

I honestly don't know if Dr. Foy practises any form of Christianity.
Not really bothered either way to be honest.

gurramok

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

No employer has ever asked me for a birth certificate. Or a passport. Or a driving licence. Nobody I know has ever been asked for any of those documents. I've never seen that requirement on a job listing.

You're talking nonsense.

Any private enterprise has to abide by data protection. It is illegal for them to ask for information or documentation which is not relevant to the purpose of their business with you.

Nope, they do not ask on a job listing. Its a requirement to produce the documents when you actually start the job, I had to, both birth cert and passport, I work in a multinational if that makes any difference.

Oh, I have had to produce my birth cert when opening a string of bank accounts over the years, a passport was not enough. Again, none of the banks business about your past gender or where I was born, the passport is a sufficient document of identity as you need your birth cert when applying for a passport in the first place!

MadsL

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

No employer has ever asked me for a birth certificate. Or a passport. Or a driving licence. Nobody I know has ever been asked for any of those documents. I've never seen that requirement on a job listing.

You're talking nonsense.

Any private enterprise has to abide by data protection. It is illegal for them to ask for information or documentation which is not relevant to the purpose of their business with you.

Security and proving your identity is relevant and legal purpose.

Why are you strawmanning that no-one sees your Birth Cert when it is plainly untrue. It is requested in many many circumstances.

MadsL

padd b1975 wrote: »

Dr.Foy is unable to marry a man due to the fact that he too was born a man.

Dr.Foy is legally a woman, but prevented by Irish law from marrying a man unlike other Irish women, in breach of Article 12 of the ECHR.

Are you arguing this is just and right?

You cannot be reborn despite what the Hindus might tell you.

Strawman nonsense.

I honestly don't know if Dr. Foy practises any form of Christianity.
Not really bothered either way to be honest.

I see, just a cheap prejudiced dig then with no thought behind it.

Slutmonkey57b

MadsL wrote: »

Security and proving your identity is relevant and legal purpose.

Why are you strawmanning that no-one sees your Birth Cert when it is plainly untrue. It is requested in many many circumstances.

I'm not. The poster I was replying to stated that "employers" ask for a birth cert. That is plainly untrue.

Some employers, as stated by another poster, may ask for one if it is relevant. If employers en masse start doing it, they're under a legal obligation to prove why they require it.

Only in very limited circumstances should anyone be asked for a birth certificate. If the scope of agencies asking for it is too wide, then the problem is larger than the one affecting Dr. Foy.

People seem to want to insinuate that every time you walk down the street, everyone is going to demand proof of gender. That's bollocks.

Slutmonkey57b

MadsL wrote: »

In a dusty records office. Not at a public counter with some barely out of teens clerk sniggering.

Tell you what, if this is so non-invasive go get a STD test and staple the results to your birth cert. See how you feel pushing it under the glass window at the bank.

To address your point, why do you assume that the person in the passport office, or driving licence agency, is an unprofessional teenage sniggerer? Why would they care if the document you provide is "birth cert" or "cert of birth record (amendment)"? All that matters is that it's valid and matches the application.

Banks asking for a birth cert and std results? Now who's strawmanning?

Edit: correcting an auto correction for "std"

MadsL

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

I'm not. The poster I was replying to stated that "employers" ask for a birth cert. That is plainly untrue.

Some employers, as stated by another poster, may ask for one if it is relevant. If employers en masse start doing it, they're under a legal obligation to prove why they require it.

Only in very limited circumstances should anyone be asked for a birth certificate. If the scope of agencies asking for it is too wide, then the problem is larger than the one affecting Dr. Foy.

People seem to want to insinuate that every time you walk down the street, everyone is going to demand proof of gender. That's bollocks.

You really should stop digging that hole. Plenty of employers will ask for proof of identity.

Slutmonkey57b

MadsL wrote: »

You really should stop digging that hole. Plenty of employers will ask for proof of identity.

To reiterate: which is not the same as "all", or "most", nor is it the same as "requires a birth certificate". Provide numbers for "plenty", please.

Proof of identity is not automatically "copy of birth cert" and for information security, it should not be.

padd b1975

MadsL wrote: »

Dr.Foy is legally a woman, but prevented by Irish law from marrying a man unlike other Irish women, in breach of Article 12 of the ECHR.

Are you arguing this is just and right?

I am arguing how the law stands today.

There is currently no provision in Irish law for same sex marraige.

I would suggest to Dr. Foy that he should take her passport and his birth cert and plead his rather unusal case in The European Court of Human Rights.

I think its fair to say that the Irish courts have more important matters to be dealing with.
Nobody with an ounce of common sense has any desire to see our courts clogged up with semantics.

MadsL

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

To reiterate: which is not the same as "all", or "most", nor is it the same as "requires a birth certificate". Provide numbers for "plenty", please.

Are you having a laugh? Just admit you have been corrected and move on, totally pointless diversion.

Proof of identity is not automatically "copy of birth cert" and for information security, it should not be.

In a nutshell there are plenty of places you will be asked to provide a birth cert, you have already been given several examples, just because you personally have not yet experienced them please stop derailing into nonsense about who when where how many and accept it and move on. I'm not in the humour to spoonfeed you this stuff.

MadsL

padd b1975 wrote: »

I am arguing how the law stands today.

There is currently no provision in Irish law for same sex marraige.

Dr Foy is a woman. Or are you disputing that now?

I would suggest to Dr. Foy that he should take her passport and his birth cert and plead his rather unusal case in The European Court of Human Rights.

No, SHE (are you being deliberately offensive now?) has already won that case FIVE years ago.

I think its fair to say that the Irish courts have more important matters to be dealing with.

Wow. Just wow. The courts already ruled, the Govt has ben inactive on it for five years.

Nobody with an ounce of common sense has any desire to see our courts clogged up with semantics.

You consider human rights as semantics. Ugh.

Slutmonkey57b

MadsL wrote: »

Are you having a laugh? Just admit you have been corrected and move on, totally pointless diversion.



In a nutshell there are plenty of places you will be asked to provide a birth cert, you have already been given several examples, just because you personally have not yet experienced them please stop derailing into nonsense about who when where how many and accept it and move on. I'm not in the humour to spoonfeed you this stuff.

All I've done is correct posters who have stated, erroneously, that "employers" as a group, or "banks" as a whole ask for birth certificates as a matter of course.

Several posters have then been forced to clarify that actually, there are only certain circumstances where a birth cert is requested.

My point is that if a private entity needs to establish your identity for employment or financial reasons, they don't ever need to do so with a birth certificate. I would seriously question any private entity that claimed it was necessary to establish ID with a birth cert.

If you want to continue pretending that people being asked to produce a birth certificate is something that happens on an everyday basis, then yes, I am going you ask you to back that up, because everyday experience tells us that isn't true.

MadsL

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

All I've done is correct posters who have stated, erroneously, that "employers" as a group, or "banks" as a whole ask for birth certificates as a matter of course.

Several posters have then been forced to clarify that actually, there are only certain circumstances where a birth cert is requested.

My point is that if a private entity needs to establish your identity for employment or financial reasons, they don't ever need to do so with a birth certificate. I would seriously question any private entity that claimed it was necessary to establish ID with a birth cert.

If you want to continue pretending that people being asked to produce a birth certificate is something that happens on an everyday basis, then yes, I am going you ask you to back that up, because everyday experience tells us that isn't true.

Oh Christ on a bike!! :mad:

Banks do ask for identity documents including Birth certificate. Employers do ask for Birth Certs. This happens. Your everyday experience may not have experienced it but it does happen..

To go back to my previous point would you tolerate having your sexual history stapled to it. The results of your last STI test say?

Any response?

aloyisious

It seem's to me that the question before us is: (when an Irish Citizen take's a case on civil liberties to the Irish Courts, and the (our) courts rule in the citizen's favour) why is it that the Irish Civil governance system then fails to comply with the court ruling?

Why should it be acceptable for one part of that governance system to delay and stymie the efforts of another part of the system - the courts - to uphold a citizens rights?

Slutmonkey57b

MadsL wrote: »

Oh Christ on a bike!! :mad:

Banks do ask for identity documents including Birth certificate. Employers do ask for Birth Certs. This happens. Your everyday experience may not have experienced it but it does happen..

To go back to my previous point would you tolerate having your sexual history stapled to it. The results of your last STI test say?

Any response?

1) I'm not disputing that you *might* be asked for it. I'm disputing that it is as frequent as you and other posters are making it out to be. To read the previous posts, you would think that everyone had to keep their birth cert on their person in case they had to buy a lottery ticket.

2) Read my point again. There is no reason why a bank or employer should need a birth certificate to establish identity. There are other, cheaper, better ways of doing that. Private entities asking for birth certificates is an issue that is of more concern than whether a birth cert should be immutable. Forcing them to stop the practice of requesting certs is a better way of fixing the problem.

3) Already have, see above.

CreepingDeath

MadsL wrote: »

Dr Lydia Foy has launched another legal challenge to actually get her hands on her reissued birth certifcate showing her to legally be a woman fully five years after winning her legal case proving her right to have the certificate altered.

The state has the right to produce it's own ID system, certificates, passports etc.

A birth cert, is by it's very definition, a record of the details of our birth.
The individual in question was a man at birth and qualified doctors made that determination, it is a historically accurate record and immutable.

If someone wants to rewrite history, they'll have to invent a time machine.