Fluoride- Declan Waugh in Hotpress

pastorbarrett

Yeah, that 'ol (water ) chestnut. Ok, so this has long been a topic held dear by Jim Corr devotees and and other maligned crackpots (and now Paddy Casey too, it seems), but the anti-fluoride argument seems to have been given considerable credence by the research undertaken by Declan Waugh, interviewed in this months Hotpress.

He's compiled a 300 + page report reviewing 1200 + studies and he's claiming that we've the highest incidences of cancer, neurological illness, cardiovascular illness and diabetes in all of Europe, and it's related to fluoridation of our water supply.

The comparisons between the Republic and the North where incidences of the above illnesses are concerned make for especially troubling reading. Apparently his research has also resulted in four Canadian cities making the decision to cease fluoridating their water supply.

Some more info on article here, as is a link to download the report itself.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=13866

Looks like they may have gotten something right over in conspiracy theories...

Annasopra

Who?

Heroditas

mango salsa wrote: »

Who?

He used to be a member of the Green Party and is on the board of SEAI.
Ended up talking to him just before Christmas about the fluoride issue before he started going on about mobile phone signals scrambling our brains.

Jimoslimos

meridiangroup wrote: »

He's compiled a 300 + page report reviewing 1200 + studies and he's claiming that we've the highest incidences of cancer, neurological illness, cardiovascular illness and diabetes in all of Europe, and it's related to fluoridation of our water supply.

The comparisons between the Republic and the North where incidences of the above illnesses are concerned make for especially troubling reading. Apparently his research has also resulted in four Canadian cities making the decision to cease fluoridating their water supply.

Nothing to do with the vastly superior health system north of the border? Different methods of reporting? Drawing conclusions on disease incidence rates from different countries is fraught with danger.

Ziphius

The lack of a clear reference section in this 300 page bloat is a concern.

Waugh is also a fan of Aisling Fitzgibbon (aka The girl against fluoride) who uses scientific misinformation in her crusade against fluoride.

I'll wait till Waugh publishes his findings in a real peer reviewed journal before accepting conspiracy theories.

Ziphius

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Nothing to do with the vastly superior health system north of the border? Different methods of reporting? Drawing conclusions on disease incidence rates from different countries is fraught with danger.

Indeed. The anti fluoride campaigners always seem to forget to include cancers rates that are higher in Republic than the North for some reason too. And the cancers that are more prevalent in urban areas.

squod

Ziphius wrote: »

Waugh is also a fan of Aisling Fitzgibbon (aka The girl against fluoride) who uses scientific misinformation in her crusade against fluoride.

I'll wait till Waugh publishes his findings in a real peer reviewed journal before accepting conspiracy theories.

You can have my share of the flouride if that would make you any happier.


If your going along the lines of arguing that people are wrong because they hold a different opinion that you do, could you tell me then precisely why so few countries do not flouridate their drinking water. Shurely if it's only conspiracy nuts who think flouridation is bad then the majority of countries would adopt it?

At what point would you accept that your argument is wrong?

JonEBGud

There is no need for Fluoride in our water.
Anyone who brushes their teeth with toothpaste
every day doesn't need it.
Plus:- Old folks with no teeth (only dentures)
don't need it.

Ziphius

squod wrote: »

You can have my share of the flouride if that would make you any happier.


If your going along the lines of arguing that people are wrong because they hold a different opinion that you do, could you tell me then precisely why so few countries do not flouridate their drinking water. Shurely if it's only conspiracy nuts who think flouridation is bad then the majority of countries would adopt it?

Myriad reasons. The fact is that many countries do fluoridate there water. Other countries, particularly in Europe, add fluoride to table salt.

Just because something is uncommon does not make it dangerous. Would you apply that logic to which side of the road we drive on?

squod wrote: »

At what point would you accept that your argument is wrong?

If you're asking what would change my opinion on water fluoridation then evidence. Be this scientific or economic or whatever. What would change yours?

Fitzgibbon does not use good science. In her literature (at least what I saw) used graphics from the all Ireland cancer atlas (link) that showed different rates of various cancers in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Firstly she did not include the cancers (admittedly fewer) that are infact more common in the North but also mixed up correlation with causation.

I used conspiracy theories to echo the OP. Though if you look at the numerous threads on this topic I think you'll see its often a fair judgement.

Ziphius

JonEBGud wrote: »

There is no need for Fluoride in our water.
Anyone who brushes their teeth with toothpaste
every day doesn't need it.
Plus:- Old folks with no teeth (only dentures)
don't need it.

Fair enough. But what if low cost fluoridation saves low income families thousands in dental visits or lost teeth?

Edit Water fluoridation came in ninth place in the Centre for Disease Control and Prevention list of ten greatest public health achievements of the 20th century. http://www.cdc.gov/about/history/tengpha.htm

"Water fluoridation is especially beneficial for communities of low socioeconomic status. These communities have a disproportionate burden of dental caries and have less access than higher income communities to dental-care services and other sources of fluoride. Water fluoridation may help reduce such dental health disparities."

Aquarius34

Ziphius wrote: »

Myriad reasons. The fact is that many countries do fluoridate there water. Other countries, particularly in Europe, add fluoride to table salt.

Just because something is uncommon does not make it dangerous. Would you apply that logic to which side of the road we drive on?

No that is not true, only a few countries add fluoride to salt, and even at that, it means you don't have to take it if you don't buy salt. If it's in our water we have no choice. There is a major difference here, and adding fluoride to salt won't benefit your teeth, swallowing it doesn't have any benefit either and wait for it fluoride has no benefit whatsoever. There is just no logic in any of it.



Water fluoridation is banned now in most of Europe. We are the only country in Europe that puts it into most of our water supply. Spain and England only have a few pocket places left.

Fitzgibbon does not use good science. In her literature (at least what I saw) used graphics from the all Ireland cancer atlas

Lol at good science

I used conspiracy theories to echo the OP. Though if you look at the numerous threads on this topic I think you'll see its often a fair judgement.

A lot of people are waking up to the realisation that sodium fluoride is poison. It's escalating more and more all the time. Just one google search will show you millions of results on the topic and it will show you just how many people from all walks of life who are campaigning against it.

Aquarius34

Ziphius wrote: »

Fair enough. But what if low cost fluoridation saves low income families thousands in dental visits or lost teeth?

Edit Water fluoridation came in ninth place in the Centre for Disease Control and Prevention list of ten greatest public health achievements of the 20th century. http://www.cdc.gov/about/history/tengpha.htm

"Water fluoridation is especially beneficial for communities of low socioeconomic status. These communities have a disproportionate burden of dental caries and have less access than higher income communities to dental-care services and other sources of fluoride. Water fluoridation may help reduce such dental health disparities."

What a load of BS... The government don't care about your teeth. The government is driven by power,greed, corruption and you mean to sit here and actually think these corrupt leaders are trying to protect us from tooth decay when they have turned this country upside down?

Tooth decay is the least of their f***king worries.

Give it a rest. It's 2013 not 1945.

Ziphius

Aquarius34 wrote: »

What a load of BS... The government don't care about your teeth. The government is driven by power,greed, corruption and you mean to sit here and actually think these corrupt leaders are trying to protect us from tooth decay when they have turned this country upside down?

Tooth decay is the least of their f***king worries.

Give it a rest. It's 2013 not 1945.

The CDC is a US organisation. Perhaps you'd have more credibility if you knew what you were talking about.

Sarky

In before lizard people.

Aquarius34

Ziphius wrote: »

The CDC is a US organisation. Perhaps you'd have more credibility if you knew what you were talking about.

I don't care who they are. You have no credibility when you talk about sodium fluoride as something that is beneficial to us by dumping it in our drinking water.

Ziphius

Aquarius34 wrote: »

I don't care who they are. You have no credibility when you talk about sodium fluoride as something that is beneficial to us by dumping it in our drinking water.

Meow!

Aquarius34

Ziphius wrote: »

Meow!

Dinosaurus are backs.

Jimoslimos

Aquarius34 wrote: »

No that is not true, only a few countries add fluoride to salt, and even at that, it means you don't have to take it if you don't buy salt. If it's in our water we have no choice. There is a major difference here, and adding fluoride to salt won't benefit your teeth, swallowing it doesn't have any benefit either and wait for it fluoride has no benefit whatsoever. There is just no logic in any of it.

Actually it is probably easier to avoid fluoridated water here than fluoridated salt abroad - given that salt forms an essential part of our diet and used in most processed foods as well as cooking.

With all due respect aquarius, i've just finished reading the latest 'vaccines' thread over in CT, and although my views on fluoridation seem to be fundamentally in line with your own, at this moment I cannot accept the words you type as anything other than entertainment.

Thread relevent: Flouridation is bad, mmm' kay. Now to have a glance through Waugh's report.

Aquarius34

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Actually it is probably easier to avoid fluoridated water here than fluoridated salt abroad - given that salt forms an essential part of our diet and used in most processed foods as well as cooking.

Ah now're your thinking

Well if I had a choice, I'd prefer to be added to salt, because I don't eat processed food. When it's in water, it's in nearly freaking everything because we need water for drinking, cooking, cleaning, and for washing ourselves.

Aquarius34

stankratz wrote: »

With all due respect aquarius, i've just finished reading the latest 'vaccines' thread over in CT, and although my views on fluoridation seem to be in line with your own, at this moment I cannot accept the words you type as anything other than entertainment.

Well follow popularity contest if you will, that's your decision, it doesn't make a difference to me as to whatever you believe.

Seaneh

Ziphius wrote: »

Myriad reasons. The fact is that many countries do fluoridate there water. Other countries, particularly in Europe, add fluoride to table salt.

First of all, fluride isn't added to table salt for health reasons, it's added to make it "free flowing" and cheaper, so where's that "argument" shot to crap, as for the rest of your post, that's even more ridiculous.

JonEBGud

Ziphius wrote: »

Fair enough. But what if low cost fluoridation saves low income families thousands in dental visits or lost teeth?

Edit Water fluoridation came in ninth place in the Centre for Disease Control and Prevention list of ten greatest public health achievements of the 20th century. http://www.cdc.gov/about/history/tengpha.htm

"Water fluoridation is especially beneficial for communities of low socioeconomic status. These communities have a disproportionate burden of dental caries and have less access than higher income communities to dental-care services and other sources of fluoride. Water fluoridation may help reduce such dental health disparities."

Give them a tooth brush and a tube of toothpaste.
Why does everyone else have to have this poison?

Jimoslimos

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Ah now're your thinking

Well if I had a choice, I'd prefer to be added to salt, because I don't eat processed food. When it's in water, it's in nearly freaking everything because we need water for drinking, cooking, cleaning, and for washing ourselves.

So where do you get your salt intake from? A salt-lick in the back garden?

J_E

Hasn't done me any harm...

Aquarius34

The government want to protect us all from the evil forces of tooth decay.

The country is a mess, but the focus is to protect our teeth. You know aren't we the most fluoridated country in the world alongside USA. Doesn't that tell you something about the state of our country. Fluoride is well known for causing brain damage and America has always been slated as the most brainwashed nation on Earth, and it seems very obvious this country is following in on the same pattern.

But hey, let's not get the real facts get in the way of corruption here. We must protect Irish people from tooth decay. Sodium fluoride is the only defense against tooth decay.

Let's all eat bags of sugar and then go swallow fluoride. We will all be fine.

Aquarius34

Jimoslimos wrote: »

So where do you get your salt intake from? A salt-lick in the back garden?

toothpaste. I add it my breakfast, I add it to my curry and It's all because the government are right and they are here to protect me from tooth decay.

Jimoslimos

Seaneh wrote: »

First of all, fluride isn't added to table salt for health reasons, it's added to make it "free flowing" and cheaper, so where's that "arguement" shot to crap, as for the rest of your post, that's even more ridiculous.

Bullsh1t. Sodium Fluoride isn't an anti-caking agent, and isn't used for that purpose. So that's that argument "shot to crap".

JonEBGud

Jimoslimos wrote: »

So where do you get your salt intake from? A salt-lick in the back garden?

Any person who has a balanced diet
doesn't need suplements.

Aquarius34

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Bullsh1t. Sodium Fluoride

Yes it is.

It's all bull**** and you know what it's bad for ya!

Ziphius

Seaneh wrote: »

First of all, fluride isn't added to table salt for health reasons, it's added to make it "free flowing" and cheaper, so where's that "arguement" shot to crap, as for the rest of your post, that's even more ridiculous.

Why does my Marken JodSalz (mit fluorid) include fluoride( and folic acid) in the nutritional information including an RDA?

Perhaps this paper will be of interest to you:

"Water fluoridation, salt fluoridation, milk fluoridation and use of affordable fluoridated toothpastes play the major roles in public health"

http://www.who.int/oral_health/publications/orh_IDJ_salt_fluoration.pdf

So that's your entire "arguement [sic] shot to crap".

Aquarius34

Ziphius wrote: »

Why does my Marken JodSalz (mit fluorid) include fluoride( and folic acid) in the nutritional information including an RDA?

Perhaps this paper will be of interest to you:

"Water fluoridation, salt fluoridation, milk fluoridation and use of affordable fluoridated toothpastes play the major roles in public health"

http://www.who.int/oral_health/publications/orh_IDJ_salt_fluoration.pdf

So that's your entire "arguement [sic] shot to crap".

Nothing interests me about Sodium fluoride.

Sarky

Regular salt is sodium chloride. It contains chlorine. Chlorine was regularly used as a very effective chemical weapon in World War 1, particularly in the trenches. It kills people.

You are clearly a shill for the chlorine agenda. Y U WAENT KILL PPL!?

Aquarius34

Sarky wrote: »

Regular salt is sodium chloride. It contains chlorine. Chlorine was regularly used as a very effective chemical weapon in World War 1, particularly in the trenches. It kills people.

You are clearly a shill for the chlorine agenda. Y U WAENT KILL PPL!?

I don't add regular salt to my food, but fluoride is meant to be nice in curry. It helps you go braindead.

Corkfeen

Aquarius34 wrote: »

The government want to protect us all from the evil forces of tooth decay.

The country is a mess, but the focus is to protect our teeth. You know aren't we the most fluoridated country in the world alongside USA. Doesn't that tell you something about the state of our country. Fluoride is well known for causing brain damage and America has always been slated as the most brainwashed nation on Earth, and it seems very obvious this country is following in on the same pattern.

But hey, let's not get the real facts get in the way of corruption here. We must protect Irish people from tooth decay. Sodium fluoride is the only defense against tooth decay.

Let's all eat bags of sugar and then go swallow fluoride. We will all be fine.

Erm... The DPRK is definitely the most brainwashed nation in the world.

squod

Ziphius wrote: »

Myriad reasons. The fact is that many countries do fluoridate there water. Other countries, particularly in Europe, add fluoride to table salt.

Myriad reasons? Well that's me corrected. Thanks for that. How about countries who have stopped fluoridation and now have less decay than when they were fluoridating? The salt/fluoride argument is a bluddy nonsense. I'd expect a scientific person like yourself to realise that.

Ziphius wrote: »

Just because something is uncommon does not make it dangerous. Would you apply that logic to which side of the road we drive on?

Let me get this straight. Your saying that advisers and scientists like yourself in other countries are wrong. Loads of them in fact.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:6xPgNiSRRaIJ:www.enviro.ie/correspondence/21.11.2012/Correspondence%2520from%2520Minister%2520for%2520Health%2520and%2520Facts%2520on%2520Countries%2520that%2520ceased%2520water%2520fluoridation%2520Nov%25202012.pdf+&hl=en&gl=ie&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgTaDBte6rNIJYkyBD8z6K0owPC8yko4A38xodZnkBVWBI3vNG3sX6AcR9C3f2Cwq9wbNTvlRnRO1KiManxPOin2dVl1Zv2gFSg4el6WQTcdA-KbhKHriw4jjj6nHVCMGBYzqlE&sig=AHIEtbQv_Db7MPjWXiAW7fExa9-ichleTQ

9959

Heroditas wrote: »

He used to be a member of the Green Party and is on the board of SEAI.
Ended up talking to him just before Christmas about the fluoride issue before he started going on about mobile phone signals scrambling our brains.

Ah The Green Party, middle-class cranks with a conscience, righting the wrongs of the world in terms of light bulbs, fluoridation and patio heaters, whilst being rogered senseless by their uncouth Fianna Fail partners.

'Marry in haste, repent at leisure', indeed.

Robbo

The most surprising aspect of this thread is that Hot Press is still going. What are Cactus World News up to these days?

squod

9959 wrote: »

Ah The Green Party, ........

Green party hate poor people, that's a fact.

9959

squod wrote: »

Green party hate poor people, that's a fact.

I'm not sure if they hate them, they just never met any.

Jester252

Everthing gives you cancer in this day and age.

9959

Robbo wrote: »

The most surprising aspect of this thread is that Hot Press is still going. What are Cactus World News up to these days?

I think they did the decent thing, and finally went 'over the bridge', did they jump or were they pushed?

hooradiation

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Ah now're your thinking

Well if I had a choice, I'd prefer to be added to salt, because I don't eat processed food. When it's in water, it's in nearly freaking everything because we need water for drinking, cooking, cleaning, and for washing ourselves.

You probably shouldn't be drinking your bathwater.

squod

9959 wrote: »

I'm not sure if they hate them, they just never met any.

They have a knack for making everything dearer. Adding taxes to bluddy everything was their mantra. Ergo, they hate poor people.

Capt'n Midnight

Seaneh wrote: »

First of all, fluride isn't added to table salt for health reasons, it's added to make it "free flowing" and cheaper, so where's that "argument" shot to crap, as for the rest of your post, that's even more ridiculous.

The whole point of scientific debate is you propose a falsifiable theory AND if it's shown to be false you have to retract that theory until you can show the evidence is wrong or change it to accept the evidence. If you don't then the scientific community is duty bound to ignore. Them's the rules.


You claim that Fluoride is added to salt to make it cheaper. The anti-fluoride side complain about the cost of Fluoridation all the time. So there is a contradiction - at least one is wrong.

And since we are in the EU it's a pretty safe bet that anyone adding fluoride to salt is listing it on the ingredients.


The free flowing agent is usually Sodium HexaCyanoFerrate II (look at your salt)

and yes that is Cyanide so don't add concentrated sulphuric acid to your sale , (it's the same as the whole flourine vs. flouride FUD)


Spreading Fear Uncertainty and Doubt with easily revealed untruths just completely undermines anything you say. More importantly crying wolf means that future arguments will be ignored.





There is a trinity of anti-Fluoride / anti-Vaccination / Homoeopathy. If someone signs up to all three then I'm considering it's a religious belief rather than an opinion they have developed themselves.

Capt'n Midnight

Jester252 wrote: »

Everthing gives you cancer in this day and age.

I'm giving up oxygen and potassium for lent.

All I need to do now is excise any oncogenes, repair the UV damage and figure out how to block cosmic rays.

Then I can look at the other risks.

Aquarius34

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

I'm giving up oxygen and potassium for lent.

All I need to do now is excise any oncogenes, repair the UV damage and figure out how to block cosmic rays.

Then I can look at the other risks.

Giving up would, be swallowing a whole lot of fluoride.

Aquarius34

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

There is a trinity of anti-Fluoride / anti-Vaccination / Homoeopathy. If someone signs up to all three then I'm considering it's a religious belief rather than an opinion they have developed themselves.

This is proof you talk a lot of nonsense. Homeopathy actually works and we don't need fluoride or vaccines. Fluoride doesn't protect us from tooth decay, it posions us. There is warning's on the back of all toothpaste that fluoride is not to be swallowed.

Aquarius34

Jester252 wrote: »

Everthing gives you cancer in this day and age.

Ignorance is the main cause of it.

Tiddlypeeps

Whenever this thread pops up I post this video, because it's very good at pointing out all the holes in the usual anti-fluoride arguments. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MAXwv7j_jbY

I know it won't sway any of the militant anti-fluoride people out there, because they often start spouting nonsense about lizard people when you hit them with any stats they dont' like, but it should hopefully help anybody who is on the edge to make an informed decision.

More reading if anybody is interested, a report published by the world health organisation. http://whqlibdoc.who.int/trs/WHO_TRS_846.pdf

meridiangroup wrote: »

Yeah, that 'ol (water ) chestnut. Ok, so this has long been a topic held dear by Jim Corr devotees and and other maligned crackpots (and now Paddy Casey too, it seems), but the anti-fluoride argument seems to have been given considerable credence by the research undertaken by Declan Waugh, interviewed in this months Hotpress.

He's compiled a 300 + page report reviewing 1200 + studies and he's claiming that we've the highest incidences of cancer, neurological illness, cardiovascular illness and diabetes in all of Europe, and it's related to fluoridation of our water supply.

The comparisons between the Republic and the North where incidences of the above illnesses are concerned make for especially troubling reading. Apparently his research has also resulted in four Canadian cities making the decision to cease fluoridating their water supply.

Some more info on article here, as is a link to download the report itself.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=13866

Looks like they may have gotten something right over in conspiracy theories...

Correlation does not imply causation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

Just because cancer rates are higher in Ireland than elsewhere does not mean you can pick a random difference when there are many and attribute it to the cancer rates. I could just as easily come along and say that there are a higher number of cows in Ireland per square meter of land than a lot of other countries, therefore cows cause cancer. You see why the argument falls down?

I'm not saying water fluoridation doesn't cause cancer, but until I am presented with some legitimate evidence to suggest that it is I have no reason to believe it's true.

Another big issue here has been mentioned by others, the fact that a lot of other European countries distribute fluoride by other means such as salt and milk and some have naturally occurring fluoride so don't need to add any. Here is a list of what countries use fluoride and how they use it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoridation_by_country

squod wrote: »

If your going along the lines of arguing that people are wrong because they hold a different opinion that you do, could you tell me then precisely why so few countries do not flouridate their drinking water. Shurely if it's only conspiracy nuts who think flouridation is bad then the majority of countries would adopt it?

Sadly it's not only conspiracy nuts that think water fluoridation is bad. The conspiracy nuts tend to be very vocal and seem to have no scruples about making s**t up to further their agenda so scare people into believing what they say. They use the same tactics with vacines, which is a much bigger atrocity than fluoride imo, it's disgusting.

JonEBGud wrote: »

There is no need for Fluoride in our water.
Anyone who brushes their teeth with toothpaste
every day doesn't need it.
Plus:- Old folks with no teeth (only dentures)
don't need it.

This is simply untrue and can be debunked with by very quick google search. Stop spreading information you can't back up. Some more reading material if you are interested on why ingesting flouride is important for the prevention of dental caries. Paper 1 and paper 2.

Seaneh wrote: »

First of all, fluride isn't added to table salt for health reasons, it's added to make it "free flowing" and cheaper, so where's that "argument" shot to crap, as for the rest of your post, that's even more ridiculous.

Even if your reason for it being added to salt is true (which it isn't), why does it matter? The fact still remains that it is added to salt in a lot of countries, why does the intention behind it being added make a blind bit of difference? Do things only make people sick if the person administering them intends for it to make them sick?

Genghiz Cohen

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Homeopathy actually works and we don't need fluoride or vaccines.

Yeah, that homeopathic Polio cure has really worked wonders.