Is multiculturalism wanted??

woodoo

I'm not anti immigration by the way.

ProudDUB

I used to live in a what would be considered a very multicultural part of a major US city. I loved it...the cheap rents, the proximity to down town, the fabulous food, the funky ethnic boutiques, the wonderful people that were so fresh faced and excited about being in America, The Land Of Opportunity, the atmosphere and over all buzz made it a great place to live.

However, there was a flip side to that too. Over the years that I lived there, there was a massive influx of poorly educated, non English speaking immigrants into the area (from South America mainly) that flooded the local school system. It just couldn't cope with the numbers involved or build schools fast enough. When a couple of the factories that drew the migrant workers there in the first place closed, things got a lot worse. This manifested itself in anti social problems and a tolerance of a gang culture that made me begin to think about moving out.

I wound up staying. It was ok for me, I didn't have kids. I didn't have to worry about my child getting into trouble on the way to and from school, or getting involved with gangs. I also didn't have to worry about the quality of their education, due to their being 45 odd kids in classes, or the lessons having to be taught at a snails pace due to the high numbers of kids in the classes who spoke limited English.

I know people, good people (both white, Asian and African American) who moved away from the area because they wanted their kids to have access to lets face it, better schools and a less threatening social environment. Does that make them racist? I don't think that it does. It is a lot more complicated than that.

It's also not a race thing to me. It is an economic thing. If you have money, regardless of your race, you want to live in a "nice" area with "good" schools. How many rappers who grew up in the 'hood still live there? How many coloured sports stars, actors, musicians etc etc who grew up on a socially deprived council estate still live in one? Very few imo. They all live in McMansions in GenteelsVille. Are they all being racist too by moving away?

woodoo

Nodin wrote: »

So because we disagree, we must be wrong....great logic there.

I'll take the opinion of those that live it over those that don't.

Nodin

woodoo wrote: »

I'll take the opinion of those that live it over those that don't.

And how do you know (of those posting here) who has lived there, who has relations there, who is living there.....?

The King of Moo

woodoo wrote: »

I'll take the opinion of those that live it over those that don't.

Like this account?

philologos wrote: »

I haven't had a great deal of trouble in Tower Hamlets. I have quite a few friends that live there and they get on fine.

I live in a white-minority area, it doesn't really affect my life all that much.

Johro

ProudDUB wrote: »

I used to live in a what would be considered a very multicultural part of a major US city. I loved it...the cheap rents, the proximity to down town, the fabulous food, the funky ethnic boutiques, the wonderful people that were so fresh faced and excited about being in America, The Land Of Opportunity, the atmosphere and over all buzz made it a great place to live.

However, there was a flip side to that too. Over the years that I lived there, there was a massive influx of poorly educated, non English speaking immigrants into the area (from South America mainly) that flooded the local school system. It just couldn't cope with the numbers involved or build schools fast enough. When a couple of the factories that drew the migrant workers there in the first place closed, things got a lot worse. This manifested itself in anti social problems and a tolerance of a gang culture that made me begin to think about moving out.

I wound up staying. It was ok for me, I didn't have kids. I didn't have to worry about my child getting into trouble on the way to and from school, or getting involved with gangs. I also didn't have to worry about the quality of their education, due to their being 45 odd kids in classes, or the lessons having to be taught at a snails pace due to the high numbers of kids in the classes who spoke limited English.

I know people, good people (both white, Asian and African American) who moved away from the area because they wanted their kids to have access to lets face it, better schools and a less threatening social environment. Does that make them racist? I don't think that it does. It is a lot more complicated than that.

It's also not a race thing to me. It is an economic thing. If you have money, regardless of your race, you want to live in a "nice" area with "good" schools. How many rappers who grew up in the 'hood still live there? How many coloured sports stars, actors, musicians etc etc who grew up on a socially deprived council estate still live in one? Very few imo. They all live in McMansions in GenteelsVille. Are they all being racist too by moving away?

I'm sorry but there are so many predominantly white estates in the country with exactly these problems of gang related crimes, drugs and alcoholism, poor education etc, they have nothing to do with race, they relate to poverty, and poverty doesn't discriminate.

woodoo

token101 wrote: »

Ask people who work in the NHS in the UK, they'll tell you that there are 1000's of people who can't speak two words of English but they've been in the UK for years.

I'd bet the NHS spend a fortune on translators.

SirTallaghtban

Einhard wrote: »

The city becomes more interesting and enjoyable for all. Compare Dublin today Vs Dublin 30 years ago. The staid, boring Melbourne of 1950 with the vibrant Melbourne of today. The London of 1940 with the London of 2012.I'm sorry, but only incredibly boring, conservatve people graviate towards others based entirely on the colour of their skin, or their food choices.

PS: SirTallaghtBan...could you please just come out and admit that you think black people are less "native" than white people. We've know it all along. It's dripping from your posts. It'd be easier, and more honest, if you simply had the strength of your convictions and admitted to them.

Of course white Europeans are more native to Europe than a second or third generation immigrant of african stock.

Pre ww2 there were very few black people in Europe.

Are you taking the p*ss here?

woodoo

Einhard wrote: »

I'm pretty sure you don't understand what multiculturalism is. It's not simply immigration...

I know well what multiculturalism is. It wouldn't exist without immigration past and present. Without immigration we would still have mono-cultural european countries.

Sonics2k

philologos wrote: »

I haven't had a great deal of trouble in Tower Hamlets. I have quite a few friends that live there and they get on fine.

I live in a white-minority area, it doesn't really affect my life all that much.

I may not agree with Phil on matters of Theology, but I so agree with him on this thread.
It's bizarre thinking from people when they think people of different backgrounds can't live in the same community.

I grew up London, various friends from so many backgrounds, and the when I lived in Australia.

Most of the areas I lived had a large amount of black people, and I never felt any that from them, or at least, no more than from any white guy here in Cork or Dublin.

southsiderosie

woodoo wrote: »

I know well what multiculturalism is. It wouldn't exist without immigration past and present. Without immigration we would still have mono-cultural european countries.

NO NO NO. NO! Christ!

Multiculturalism in Europe is traditionally identified with the Dutch pillarisation system whereby Catholics, Protestants, and Socialists - all 'native', white Dutch - had their own organizations, institutions, newspapers, and social networks. It was essentially live and let live approach to dealing with what was considered a heterogeneous population. This is very, very recent European history.

woodoo

The King of Moo wrote: »

Like this account?

Thats one yeah.

dr.bollocko

Terrontress banned btw.

For anyone keeping score.

southsiderosie

woodoo wrote: »

I know well what multiculturalism is. It wouldn't exist without immigration past and present. Without immigration we would still have mono-cultural european countries.

The Belgians, Swiss and Spaniards would disagree.

woodoo

southsiderosie wrote: »

NO NO NO. NO! Christ!

Multiculturalism in Europe is traditionally identified with the Dutch pillarisation system whereby Catholics, Protestants, and Socialists - all 'native', white Dutch - had their own organizations, institutions, newspapers, and social networks. It was essentially live and let live approach to dealing with what was considered a heterogeneous population. This is very, very recent European history.

That may have been the history



This is the oxford definition:

adjective
relating to or containing several cultural or ethnic groups within a society:

SirTallaghtban

Sonics2k wrote: »

I may not agree with Phil on matters of Theology, but I so agree with him on this thread.
It's bizarre thinking from people when they think people of different backgrounds can't live in the same community.

I grew up London, various friends from so many backgrounds, and the when I lived in Australia.

Most of the areas I lived had a large amount of black people, and I never felt any that from them, or at least, no more than from any white guy here in Cork or Dublin.

Explain the phenomenon known as " white flight " so.

If native Europeans are leaving certain parts of urban areas in their droves due to non European immigration, then heuston, we have a big problem.

The King of Moo

Sonics2k wrote: »

I may not agree with Phil on matters of Theology, but I so agree with him on this thread.
It's bizarre thinking from people when they think people of different backgrounds can't live in the same community.

I grew up London, various friends from so many backgrounds, and the when I lived in Australia.

Most of the areas I lived had a large amount of black people, and I never felt any that from them, or at least, no more than from any white guy here in Cork or Dublin.

woodoo wrote: »

Thats one yeah.

And another above you there, from just a few posts back. And I've lived in four different cities, and have always had friends and colleagues from other nationalities and have never had any issues with any of them based on them not being white Irish people.

philologos

Some of the posts on this thread aren't just anti-multiculturalism, indeed some of them are touching upon racism which is highly disappointing. Most of it is based on some kind of mythology that all X are the same, all Y are the same, all must conform to the narrow stereotypes of ethnicities that I've put up in my mind.

How about getting to know some of them? How about trying to see if you can befriend someone of a different ethnicity or background to you? Who knows it might just be educational.

Johro

Nodin wrote: »

...though in some parts of Ireland, a lesbian is a woman who says 'its not my turn' when asked to make tay.

My mate told me about his da reading the paper and there was some article about a female Dublin bus driver who happened to be lesbian, and he snorted and said ''f#ckin foreigners are gettin all the f#ckin jobs..'

SirTallaghtban

southsiderosie wrote: »

The Belgians, Swiss and Spaniards would disagree.

And ireland. A dublin urban dwellers culture would have been vastly different to a fisherman living on the Blasket islands , for example.

Homogenous societies are not always monocultural.

woodoo

The King of Moo wrote: »

And another above you there, from just a few posts back. And I've lived in four different cities, and have always had friends and colleagues from other nationalities and have never had any issues with any of them based on them not being white Irish people.

What about the opinions of all those that responded to the BBC article? Surely they are not all hysterical racists. Loo at the people liking their posts too.

Nodin

woodoo wrote: »

That may have been the history



This is the oxford definition:

adjective
relating to or containing several cultural or ethnic groups within a society:

Yep. Spain - 6-7 languages, two independence movements (Basque, Catalan). Belgium - french, dutch, german speakers, two in fairly autonomous regions. Russia - about 5 different ethnicities in whats the Russian Federation. Even Norway has the Sami.

woodoo

philologos wrote: »

Some of the posts on this thread aren't just anti-multiculturalism, indeed some of them are touching upon racism which is highly disappointing. Most of it is based on some kind of mythology that all X are the same, all Y are the same, all must conform to the narrow stereotypes of ethnicities that I've put up in my mind.

How about getting to know some of them? How about trying to see if you can befriend someone of a different ethnicity or background to you? Who knows it might just be educational.

As i've said i'm not anti immigrant.

The King of Moo

woodoo wrote: »

What about the opinions of all those that responded to the BBC article? Surely they are not all hysterical racists. Loo at the people liking their posts too.

Why not? There are a lot of hysterical racists out there. There are a lot of them on this forum. I've looked at the comments sections of other BBC articles before and found a lot of stupid hysterical racists posting there, though naturally not in Dailymailonline numbers.

They might not all be racist, but I find it's a good rule of thumb that if someone posts something in a comments section on the internet that sounds like it could be racist, then they probably are racist.

MadsL

SirTallaghtban wrote: »

Native Britons are a minority in London. Could be Dublin in 20 odd years.

Would you be happy with becoming a minority in your own land?

A minority, do me a favour, people like you were saying that Dublin would be majority Polish a few years ago. Get your story straight.

SirTallaghtban wrote: »

Native britons are purely of northern european descent.

*cough* horseshit. There is strong support that many Celts came from the Iberian peninsula.

And I'll just leave this here and continue to chuckle at Irish people who oppose migration.

http://www.thegatheringireland.com/App_Themes/TheGathering/images/The-Global-Irish-Community-Map.png

Sonics2k

SirTallaghtban wrote: »

Explain the phenomenon known as " white flight " so.

If native Europeans are leaving certain parts of urban areas in their droves due to non European immigration, then heuston, we have a big problem.

Is this a new phenomenon, or simply a new name?

Irish (and white) people have been immigrating by the thousands for centuries, for a variety of reasons.

Right now we have a lot of Irish moving to Australia, Canada and the USA due to mostly economic issues, just like in the 80s. Hell, the reason I was born in London is because my mother had to move their during that depression.

One suburb of Cork, which I won't name has been given a bit of bad name due to the amount of foreigners living there in the last 5 years, and people like to claim they are the reason. But any honest person will tell you that particular area has been a cesspit of scumbags and drek for decades.

woodoo

The King of Moo wrote: »

Why not? There are a lot of hysterical racists out there. There are a lot of them on this forum. I've looked at the comments sections of other BBC articles before and found a lot of stupid hysterical racists posting there, though naturally not in Dailymailonline numbers.

They might not all be racist, but I find it's a good rule of thumb that if someone posts something in a comments section on the internet that sounds like it could be racist, then they probably are racist.

Maybe they are racist maybe they aren't but if more people were giving the thumbs up to their posts then that is a worry? Anyone that read that article could press the agree or disagree button. Why were most people agreeing with those top rated comments. I don't think these feelings can be swept under the carpet.

southsiderosie

woodoo wrote: »

That may have been the history



This is the oxford definition:

adjective
relating to or containing several cultural or ethnic groups within a society:

Your OP says it is about multiculturalism, which is a very specific policy approach to dealing with a multicultural population. Is your issue then that you think multicultural societies are problematic? And why would you exclude European countries from this analysis - Spain and Belgium have struggled with being multicultural states well into the 20th and 21st centuries, and this is irregardless of their immigration situations.

SirTallaghtban

MadsL wrote: »

A minority, do me a favour, people like you were saying that Dublin would be majority Polish a few years ago. Get your story straight.l]

What was Dublins foreign born population 15 years ago? A per cent or two.
What was Dublins foreign born population according to the last census? 25-30%

Irelands foreign born pop. was 17 per cent iirc.

One of the highest in the world. The equivalent of the US letting in circa 60 million immigrants in just over a decade.

The King of Moo

woodoo wrote: »

Maybe they are racist maybe they aren't but if more people were giving the thumbs up to their posts then that is a worry? Anyone that read that article could press the agree or disagree button. Why were most people agreeing with those top rated comments. I don't think these feelings can be swept under the carpet.

There are lots of racists in the world, and for some reason I haven't divined yet, online comments sections tend to attract very stupid people.
This is why the comments get so many likes.
And because something is populist doesn't make it right. Opinion polls will always tell you a majority want hanging brought back, but it doesn't make it a good idea.

I also don't think such ideas should be swept under the carpet. They should be engaged with reasonably.