So is it cruel to cut off the fox's tail *after* you've shot it?

Sparks

FFS. /headdesk

http://www.thejournal.ie/attack-fox-laois-791031-Feb2013

John Tierney, Campaigns Director, Association of Hunt Saboteurs said today he condemns this “vicious and sadistic torture of an animal”.
“The fox receives no protection under Irish wildlife protection legislation so it is fair game for every sadistic fox hunter to carry out these evil acts,” he said.

These evil acts being to shoot the fox, then remove its tail and skin it.
Now, what you'd do with a fox pelt I don't know, but I figure it's like any other pelt, and the tail is for the gun club's count if there's a competition going normally, right?

And then, Charlie Flanagan weighed in:
https://twitter.com/CharlieFlanagan/status/300973994599936000

Charlie Flanagan wrote:

@thejournal_ie as local TD I condemn this horrible cruelty.

https://twitter.com/CharlieFlanagan/status/300974524986445825

Charlie Flanagan wrote:

Horrible cruelty to fox in my constituency. I urge Gardai to investigate this dreadful act. There can be no justification for such cruelty.

If you'll excuse me, I need to go beat a forehead-shaped depression in my desk now...

dodderangler

Ffs
They're getting worse
Coming up with all sorts of excuses

Cass

I'm not on Twitter. What's the back story?

I get the part about the anti, but why has Flanagan weighed in, and what incident is he referring to?

He is my local TD, and an e-mail may be swiftly sent as this goes against previous views expressed by him pre-election.

Hunterbiker

Typical Anti BS. Typical TD bandwagon jumping too. A lethal combination.

What next? He'd advocate a Fox feeding program and look for public money to do it with...

Sparks

Cass wrote: »

I'm not on Twitter. What's the back story?

When the journal ran the story, they also posted a link to it on their twitter feed. That's Charlie seeing the Journal's tweet and responding to it.

He is my local TD, and an e-mail may be swiftly sent as this goes against previous views expressed by him pre-election.

Yup, agree completely.

mitosis

How can it be cruel if the animal is dead?

I wonder is "barbaric" the word he was looking for.

extremetaz

wow!



...just....



wow...

dodderangler

This just in

It's cruel to eat an animal when its dead

Birdnuts

I can't for the life of me work out why Mr Tierney and his ilk get so much media coverage in this country As for the Tweet, well you just have to laugh really:rolleyes:

fits

This is a little bit hilarious to be honest...

Grizzly 45

Birdnuts wrote: »

I can't for the life of me work out why Mr Tierney and his ilk get so much media coverage in this country As for the Tweet, well you just have to laugh really:rolleyes:

Simples..All he is doing is commenting on ANY event that might forward his warped cause.If you are a journalist as he claims he is ,a fellow anti journalist will ask you for a quote. Then let the other numpties carry the debate forward in the comment section.

clivej

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: I ALWAYS ask the shot Fox if they mind my taking the tail off them :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

charlie10

well they can tweet what they want ,i will always hunt foxs regardless of what they say or do !!! simples !

Conmaicne Mara

Cass wrote: »

He is my local TD, and an e-mail may be swiftly sent as this goes against previous views expressed by him pre-election.

I suspect, should you ask him to point out what he's talking about in relation to cruelty, and on what grounds he is asking AGS to become involved, you may get a reply similar to this:

"I like sport & respect rural pursuits hunting fishing etc. this was not sport. It gives sport a bad name. Dont please try to defend it. When you're in a hole stop digging."

Any one see an answer in there?

Cass

Sent off an e-mail, and got an answer within minutes. Very similar to your one. Almost word for word at the start, and the same abrupt end. IOW "that's it".

Sent off another one as i'm not happy with the response but did not get an answer to that yet.

Conmaicne Mara

I suspect you won't, I haven't.

Cass

I was thinking that i'd said something he hadn't considered (wishful thinking about my own ability ), but i'd say it's more a case of he just won't bother responding as the e-mail to him grow. Did not realise others were contacting him.

Good on all ye for doing it.

TriggerPL

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I suspect, should you ask him to point out what he's talking about in relation to cruelty, and on what grounds he is asking AGS to become involved, you may get a reply similar to this:

"I like sport & respect rural pursuits hunting fishing etc. this was not sport. It gives sport a bad name. Dont please try to defend it. When you're in a hole stop digging."

Any one see an answer in there?

Just in reply to this ive been asked by farmers to trow the fox on a wall or hang on a gate before, especially sheep farmers . I refused for this reason , and told them id leave them in behind the wall . He just wanted to know we were shooting the foxs and that his sheep were safe .

Conmaicne Mara

I asked him two specific questions. The first was to what cruelty he was referring? The second question was on what grounds was he asking for AGS involvement?

Now, to me, those are straight forward, simple, plain english questions.

I never mentioned sport, gates, twigs, or holes.

I got no answer to my simple questions from a public representative.

I've no issue with foxes being hung for farmers to collect, in out of the way places. In public view it's an ill advised thing to do.

The twig is bizarre.

The only issue I have here is with Flanagans comments and his utter failure to engage with both constituency voters and other voters across the country.

I suspect (I'm doing a lot of that) he is the one who is trying to stop digging by these BS passive aggressive stock answers and then ignoring people who took the time and effort to write to him.

Poor, poor show.

Sparks

This is probably bound for the letters-to-the-editors page knowing the lot who started this, so sent this off to the three larger papers just now (fingers crossed that they can post both sides on the same page for once):

Dear Sir,
No doubt by now you will have received the latest missive from John Fitzgerald of the Hunt Sabateurs or John Tierney of
the Animal Rights Activists Network, concerning the discovery by a disgusted rambler of a fox carcass minus pelt and tail
in Co.Laois.

I personally find the thought of animal cruelty revolting, and I think there's a good reason it's listed as a possible
symptom of serious mental conditions like sociopathy. However, it is listed as such by people who spend a lot more
time working with facts than the two Johnnys.

The facts of farming life are that predators must be culled because they attack and kill lambs and chickens and if those
lambs and chickens are to make it to your table, then someone has to kill foxes. You may not like it; but it is a fact.
This job is usually done by hunters for farmers, or by the farmers themselves. Once the fox has been shot, humanely and
instantly killing it, the tail is usually removed for the local game club to maintain accurate data on how many foxes
have been culled in the area. This is vital data and must be collected. Not to collect it would risk wiping out the
entire fox population which nobody wants to see happen. Any animal rights activist who would be opposed to gathering such
data accurately is not worthy of the name they given themselves.

The pelt of the animal can also be harvested and used. This is a job which fifty years ago would not have been an
unfamiliar sight to most, but with our population's move from rural to urban lives, such sights have become unfamiliar
and are now upsetting to some. This is perfectly understandable, but it does not make it an act of cruelty or barbarity.
I would point out that when you next enjoy some crackling, or a traditional sunday roast chicken, or a nicely cooked bit
of fish with crispy skin, that your cook will have faced that sight so you could eat a nice meal.

The comments in the last day or two by the Hunt Sabs and ARAN are not based in fact or reality. If they want to represent
the best interests of animals, perhaps they should invest more time in learning about the facts of animal life rather
than writing letters and trying to dupe TDs like Charlie Flanagan?

Cass

Mine were of a similar vein. I'll be honest and say that from previous dealings with the man i found him to be attentive, willing to listen, and slow to jump to a conclusion. However hat is the downfall of social media. A moments "indiscretion" cannot be unsent.

Then as you say the passive aggressive nature of the responses took me aback a little. Not what i would expect, and frankly a little bit of a let down.

4gun

You imagine he might reconsider his priorities

The whole mislabelling of processed foods might be a current issue for one that effects more of his constituents that the control of vermin.

Conmaicne Mara

Charlie sure has changed since getting into Government.

lb1981

TriggerPL wrote: »

Just in reply to this ive been asked by farmers to trow the fox on a wall or hang on a gate before, especially sheep farmers . I refused for this reason , and told them id leave them in behind the wall . He just wanted to know we were shooting the foxs and that his sheep were safe .

The majority of the land owners we shoot for ask us to hang them from the gate aswell ,they want to know how many foxes your shooting on the land.

Grizzly 45

Used to be called a "Keepers Gallows" and it was a way for the game keeper to prove he was doing his job .A lot of the old school estate gardeners swore that it was an effective way of keeping crows out of the garden seed beds..
seemed to work too,when we had a large veggie patch my dad used to shoot a couple of crows and hang them around the garden perimiter,never had live crows raiding after their fallen comrades were strung up.:D

Charlie sure has changed since getting into Government.

They all do....They don't need us now ,bar to pay gambling debts and vote for them in 2016 again..Then they will put on a show that YOUR problems are the most important thing to them...Until after the election..:rolleyes:

Conmaicne Mara

I'm sat here smiling wondering am I the only one seeing it?

yubabill1

I emailed the article author,

michelle@thejournal.ie

Michelle,

Did you consult any hunting organisation before writing this story?

I don’t see any comments by them reported in the article.

Balanced reporting? Or is that old-fashioned and anachronistic practice?


Also emailed Charlie Flanagan,TD recommending he read any articles in future, before commenting. He is going to have a job digging himself out of this one with the sheep farmers- it's Spring and the ewes are lambing......

Feel free to copy my email and send it to Michelle, or better, email Charlie.

Remember, in a boxing match, 100 light punches beats 99 haymakers, every time!
Yuba.

Qualitymark

Seems a bit odd to shoot foxes, which are the main predator of rodents, but *shrug* whatever floats your boat.

Conmaicne Mara

Qualitymark wrote: »

Seems a bit odd to shoot foxes, which are the main predator of rodents, but *shrug* whatever floats your boat.

Foxes also predate upon farm livestock and game birds.

Qualitymark

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Foxes also predate upon farm livestock and game birds.

So do rats. And foxes eat lots and lots of rats.

http://www.nhptv.org/natureworks/redfox.htm

Diet
The red fox eats a wide variety of foods. It is an omnivore and its diet includes fruits, berries and grasses. It also eats birds and small mammals like squirrels, rabbits and mice. A large part of the red fox's diet is made up invertebrates like crickets, caterpillars, grasshoppers, beetles and crayfish. The red fox will continue to hunt even when it is full. It stores extra food under leaves, snow or dirt.

Witcher

Qualitymark wrote: »

So do rats. And foxes eat lots and lots of rats.

http://www.nhptv.org/natureworks/redfox.htm

I've never seen a rat gut a field full of sheep.

stoeger2000

Blay wrote: »

I've never seen a rat gut a field full of sheep.

I've never seen a fox 'gut a field full of sheep' either, be realistic with your comments lads, otherwise you're just lowering yourselves to the same level as the antis, (bull sh*# for the sake of shock value).
It would serve these people better to go and educate themselves about the habits of the wildlife around them, but comments like the one above won't help.

Witcher

stoeger2000 wrote: »

I've never seen a fox 'gut a field full of sheep' either, be realistic with your comments lads, otherwise you're just lowering yourselves to the same level as the antis, (bull sh*# for the sake of shock value).
It would serve these people better to go and educate themselves about the habits of the wildlife around them, but comments like the one above won't help.

Just because you didn't witness it doesn't mean I didn't. A 'field full' doesn't mean a flock of 50, there were 6 in a small field and 5 were dead and the last was beyond help before the landowner killed the fox, saw it the morning after and it was a fcking mess.

Qualitymark

Blay wrote: »

Just because you didn't witness it doesn't mean I didn't.

Did you? Seriously? (And would the solution not be to keep a ram with the sheep, if you did?)

By the way, in re rats, if your rat population explodes after killing foxes, a friend of mine swears that he ended a decade-long serious rat problem on his farm by leaving out pots of diet cola; apparently something in the rat physiology makes them infertile if they drink the stuff. Took a year, but not a rat left now.

Witcher

Qualitymark wrote: »

Did you? Seriously? (And would the solution not be to keep a ram with the sheep, if you did?)

By the way, in re rats, if your rat population explodes after killing foxes, a friend of mine swears that he ended a decade-long serious rat problem on his farm by leaving out pots of diet cola; apparently something in the rat physiology makes them infertile if they drink the stuff. Took a year, but not a rat left now.

The story is above, if it was as easy as putting a ram in a field wouldn't farmers be doing it? Think about it....farming is their life, there's nothing you can think of about farming that a farmer hasn't already thought of and acted on.

The best solution I ever heard was on After Hours...someone suggested walling in the entire farm to keep foxes out:pac:

You can poison rats with bait stations etc. anyway, ya can't leave exposed, poisoned meat out for foxes in case a kestral or such eats it.

Half-cocked

Qualitymark wrote: »

By the way, in re rats, if your rat population explodes after killing foxes, a friend of mine swears that he ended a decade-long serious rat problem on his farm by leaving out pots of diet cola; apparently something in the rat physiology makes them infertile if they drink the stuff. Took a year, but not a rat left now.

If that is true, I really need to try it. I hate poisoning, too many non-target species get secondary poisoned. I seem to remember a report a good few years back that diet cola killed sperm on contact (yes, some researchers have nothing better to do), might that be where this theory is coming from;)

Concerning foxes, a lot of cereal crop farmers are more than happy to have foxes, they kill rodents and rabbits which damage crops. But sheep farmers have a genuine need to cull foxes. And shooting them is the most humane method.

rugerman

Qualitymark wrote: »

So do rats. And foxes eat lots and lots of rats.

http://www.nhptv.org/natureworks/redfox.htm

And are partia to the odd baby why don't all these people worry about state country is in rather than another man's sport fox numbers need to be kept down fact with people hanging foxes from gates yes it was a way of life years ago but u simply can't do it now with all the city folk cumming to live in our countryside

MrScootch

Blay wrote: »

I've never seen a rat gut a field full of sheep.

I think you're thinking 'wolf'. Fox is only a little thing. Maybe a stray dog.
Fox probably wandered past in the morning and thought 'I'm in luck today, free breakfast!'.

Conmaicne Mara

Thanks, but I know plenty about the habits and diet of the red fox. A hen, goose, duck, pheasant, lamb, kid, piglet, etc is a much better feed for the fox, it's more meat in one go that's easier caught than multiple anything else.

cavan shooter

When I worked and lived in England I knew an old Game Keeper in the village I lived in, in Shropshire. He always said control the fox and declare war on rats/magpies and grey crows. He used to know where the foxes were on his beat and control them, and that was exactly what he did every late summer and autumn, he maintained (and funny) so does my Father that a shoot without Foxes was a bad run shoot, that as mentioned foxes eat rodents but also a vacuum was created that would pull every young uppity fox needing a territory from miles around.

The disposal of a skinned fox is something that should have been done with a bit more thought, recently in North Cavan some Gobsheen dumped shot foxes in a Coilte wood where people have access.

We reap what we sow, and unfortunately there are enough people in the shooting community to do damage to it from the inside without having to worry about the anti shooting establishment.

stoeger2000

Blay wrote: »

Just because you didn't witness it doesn't mean I didn't. A 'field full' doesn't mean a flock of 50, there were 6 in a small field and 5 were dead and the last was beyond help before the landowner killed the fox, saw it the morning after and it was a fcking mess.

Not going to get into an argument with you on this, but I doubt very much that a fox killed 5 sheep and hung around to try to kill the sixth one. More likely that a pack of dogs did it. But whatever ya think yourself.

Witcher

MrScootch wrote: »

I think you're thinking 'wolf'. Fox is only a little thing. Maybe a stray dog.
Fox probably wandered past in the morning and thought 'I'm in luck today, free breakfast!'.

A wolf:pac: I'm well aware of the size of a fox, I've seen plenty of them. It was a fox, I saw it the next morning after he had pulled it out of the ditch, it fell in after getting a whallop off a .243 for its crimes:pac:

Witcher

stoeger2000 wrote: »

Not going to get into an argument with you on this, but I doubt very much that a fox killed 5 sheep and hung around to try to kill the sixth one. More likely that a pack of dogs did it. But whatever ya think yourself.

Whatever ya want to believe yourself, I don't even hunt myself so there's no profit for me in lying. All I saw was 5 dead sheep, one that he had to put down there and then and a fox he hauled out of a ditch.

It could have been T Rex for all I know but that's the situation I saw and the story I was told by the guy.

dodderangler

If you seen the size of the fox that comes into my garden you'd think he was a German Shepard
Big ba5tard

aaakev

Story in the daily fail today... Proper face palm moment reading it, "barbaric" "sadistic"..... Pics of the article attached.



For anyone reading this thread and is being swayed bu the childish shock tactics of the papers and anti hunting groups here is a member who made a video of this "barbaric" act, judge for yourselves

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AStHDRGudl0


Mod Note:
Pics removed due to copyright infringement

Qualitymark

Half-cocked wrote: »

If that is true, I really need to try it.

My friend said it took around a year; the rat population gradually decreased. He used to be up every night balancing the shotgun on his wife's shoulder with her holding the torch (what this did to her hearing I can't imagine), but now he sleeps like a baby on his rat-free holding.

wexfordman

gents, I would suggest people take mr flanagan to task on twitter to get him to clarify his position, and what cruelty he is alleging took place. From his posts, he seems to be saying the culling of the fox was cruel! I specifically asked to clarify, and all he said was that

no. I support rural pursuits as in hunting & fishing but what happened in this case is way beyond sport

So:-

1) He does not clarify if he is saying that the culling of the fox was what he says was cruel.
2) He alleges that the cull was done in the name of sport, seems to ignore the fact that it is a neccessity for predator control.
3) He fails to outline what specific act of cruelty he is against, and as such appears that he is against fox culling/control.
4) He specifically fails to mention fox control/shooting in his alleged "support" for rural pursuits!

I think its important to get him to clarify these points, in the same manner as he raised the issue himself....publicly on twitter!!

Conmaicne Mara

wexfordman wrote: »

gents, I would suggest people take mr flanagan to task on twitter to get him to clarify his position, and what cruelty he is alleging took place. From his posts, he seems to be saying the culling of the fox was cruel! I specifically asked to clarify, and all he said was that

no. I support rural pursuits as in hunting & fishing but what happened in this case is way beyond sport

So:-

1) He does not clarify if he is saying that the culling of the fox was what he says was cruel.
2) He alleges that the cull was done in the name of sport, seems to ignore the fact that it is a neccessity for predator control.
3) He fails to outline what specific act of cruelty he is against, and as such appears that he is against fox culling/control.
4) He specifically fails to mention fox control/shooting in his alleged "support" for rural pursuits!

I have "tweeted" him several times, and emailed him several times. I got one blunt (apparently) stock answer and he's been ignoring my questions ever since.

I think everyone should be asking him what cruelty exactly he's referring to? On what grounds is he asking AGS to become involved while pensioners are being burgled and beaten in their own homes?

Fine Gael need to find themselves a new chairman.

yubabill1

gents, I would suggest people take mr flanagan to task on twitter to get him to clarify his position, and what cruelty he is alleging took place.

+1.

I emailed him this morning.

No reply as yet. Zilch.

He's put his foot in it with his main supporters- farmers - he's just discovered it!

stoeger2000

Blay wrote: »

Whatever ya want to believe yourself, I don't even hunt myself so there's no profit for me in lying. All I saw was 5 dead sheep, one that he had to put down there and then and a fox he hauled out of a ditch.

It could have been T Rex for all I know but that's the situation I saw and the story I was told by the guy.

I'm not questioning whether or not the farmer had sheep killed, but that would not seem like fox behaviour to me.
Seems more plausible to me that a dog or a pack of dogs killed his sheep, and the fox just wandered in to get an easy meal and got caught in the act.

wexfordman

stoeger2000 wrote: »

I'm not questioning whether or not the farmer had sheep killed, but that would not seem like fox behaviour to me.
Seems more plausible to me that a dog or a pack of dogs killed his sheep, and the fox just wandered in to get an easy meal and got caught in the act.

Foxes regularly take young lambs, ask any farmer in the business rather than wasting our time tryingto cconvince us the sky is not blue.