Opinions and Advice on Scopes

skinnylizzy

I'm a total noob to Target shooting and I'm waiting for my license to come through for a little .22 I bought. I need to buy a scope for it on a budget, would anyone have any opinions on the two scopes I have linked below?

http://www.sportsden.ie/guns/gun-accessories/rifle-accessories-1/scopes/hawke-sports-hd-ir-3-9x40-mil-dot.html

http://www.sportsden.ie/guns/gun-accessories/rifle-accessories-1/scopes/hawke-sports-hd-3-9x50-mil-dot.html

Are they any good? And What are the main differences? If not, any suggestions on a "semi decent" Scope for around the €100 mark?

I know you get what you pay for but I didn't pay that much for the Rifle and don't want to invest hundreds in a scope that I will only be using from time to time. I shoot clay pigeons predominantly and just want to use the Rifle from time to time seems as there are ranges available to me at the club.

Any advice would be a great help.

Cheers lads.

extremetaz

Either of them are fine for your application.
Hawke or Busnell would be the mainstream "quality" budget scopes.

There are plenty of others but you definitely won't go wrong with either of the above brands for a .22LR.

I use a Hawke Nite-eye myself and have no complaints.

Cass

I use a Hawke Varmint SF in 6-24x44. Perfect scope, clear, right power, and at €169 new it's a steal.

gearoidol

I would be very careful getting something like the hawke non ao for .22 target shooting.i had a 4-12x50 hawke spord hd ir and although great for the money ,they have fixed parallax at 100 yards and so if your target shooting at 50 yards and because the glass is only fair the image will be fuzzy.

So if your stuck on a budget try and get one of the sport hd ao versions which aren't a lot dearer and allow you to change the parallax setting thus ensuring you get the most from the scope.Also the one Cass mentioned above has parallax adjustment which would make it a very good scope around that money

The other option is keep an eye out for a second hand scope - last week I bought a lovely bushnell banner 6-18x50 with adjustable ao for €105 delivered and I was the only one who bid on it.Price here €200-250.

skinnylizzy

Thanks for the advice guys. I really appreciate it.

Cass, would you mind telling me where one might get a Hawke Varmint for €169? Much appreciated man.

gearoidol, what sites should I be scanning for a deal like that????? Just ebay? Or do you guys in the know trawl specific sites? Cheers.

Thanks again guys.

Cass

skinnylizzy wrote: »

Cass, would you mind telling me where one might get a Hawke Varmint for €169? Much appreciated man. .

I bought mine in Sean Harding, Stakelums in Thurles about 6 months back. They might have gone up a tenner if that since, but he does fantastic deals on Hawke scopes including the Sidewinder 30 models.

He is open tomorrow (till 6pm), and Sunday (between 1-5pm) if you want to ring and see if he has any. When i asked he had the scope in within 2 working days so no long wait either.

Also the scope has side parallax. Thats why i bought one.would not have a fixed parallax scope near me. Pain in the ass.

clivej

skinnylizzy wrote: »

I'm a total noob to Target shooting and I'm waiting for my license to come through for a little .22 I bought. I need to buy a scope for it on a budget, would anyone have any opinions on the two scopes I have linked below?

http://www.sportsden.ie/guns/gun-accessories/rifle-accessories-1/scopes/hawke-sports-hd-ir-3-9x40-mil-dot.html

http://www.sportsden.ie/guns/gun-accessories/rifle-accessories-1/scopes/hawke-sports-hd-3-9x50-mil-dot.html

Are they any good? And What are the main differences? If not, any suggestions on a "semi decent" Scope for around the €100 mark?

I know you get what you pay for but I didn't pay that much for the Rifle and don't want to invest hundreds in a scope that I will only be using from time to time. I shoot clay pigeons predominantly and just want to use the Rifle from time to time seems as there are ranges available to me at the club.

Any advice would be a great help.

Cheers lads.

I wouldn't buy either of those scopes for a .22lr rifle. Neither have have adjustable parallax which in my opinion you need for a clear focus when shooting under 100y (which is where the scope will be in focus)

The difference between the 2 Hawke scopes is the objective lens size. If you divide the lens diameter of the lens by the zoom value it will give you the size of what you see at the eye end of the scope.

So 40/10 = a 4mm dia. view, and 50/10 = 5mm dia. view. This also equates to a brighter image to view.

Go for a scope with an adjustable parallax scope. The cheaper scopes have the adjustment on the objective lens and allows you to focus the scope for different distances of your target.

Bushnell Banner 4-12x40 is a good place to start with a scope. Look up O'Hallarans in Drangan, Co Tipp. He has good prices on Bushnell's at the moment.

skinnylizzy

Thanks guys. I appreciate the replies.

extremetaz

gearoidol wrote: »

I would be very careful getting something like the hawke non ao for .22 target shooting.i had a 4-12x50 hawke spord hd ir and although great for the money ,they have fixed parallax at 100 yards and so if your target shooting at 50 yards and because the glass is only fair the image will be fuzzy.

clivej wrote: »

I wouldn't buy either of those scopes for a .22lr rifle. Neither have have adjustable parallax which in my opinion you need for a clear focus when shooting under 100y (which is where the scope will be in focus)

Firstly, my Nite-eye is AO so I understand the importance of the issue, particularly at close range.

However, IMO, parallax "adjustment" is only a requirement where the range to target varies.

Both of the scopes mentioned come with fixed parallax yes, but that's absolutely no harm for target as you simply readjust it once and leave it alone. It's a very simple thing to do and for target applications, particularly at such low magnification, it's a perfectly appropriate solution.

Now I'm not saying don't go for an AO or SWAT scope, I'm just saying that it isn't as absolutely necessary as it's being made out in the given context.

gearoidol

extremetaz wrote: »

Firstly, my Nite-eye is AO so I understand the importance of the issue, particularly at close range.

However, IMO, parallax "adjustment" is only a requirement where the range to target varies.

Both of the scopes mentioned come with fixed parallax yes, but that's absolutely no harm for target as you simply readjust it once and leave it alone. It's a very simple thing to do and for target applications, particularly at such low magnification, it's a perfectly appropriate solution.

Now I'm not saying don't go for an AO or SWAT scope, I'm just saying that it isn't as absolutely necessary as it's being made out in the given context.

Extremetax
"You re adjust it once"

How can you adjust the parallax on a scope that doesn't have adjustable parallax like the ones above ?

extremetaz

gearoidol wrote: »

Extremetax
"You re adjust it once"

How can you adjust the parallax on a scope that doesn't have adjustable parallax like the ones above ?

All scopes are adjustable for parallax - for marketing purposes though, only the ones designed for variable parallax are titles as being "adjustable".

"Fixed" parallax scopes simply come with the parallax preset to a determined range.

This video is a bit waffley, but it explains the principles pretty well.

Don't mind the "ruining your scope" nonesense - you'd have to be a complete moron to screw this up. There's also absolutely no need to break the seal on the scope tube, or even to completely remove the locking ring in order to make the adjustment.

In my experience, although the locking ring is usually seriously tight, once it's slacked off even a few turns, then both rings will turn together reasonably easily.

At that stage it's just a case of setting the scope on max mag, and dialling in the front ring until both the reticle and the target are both sharp. At this point they're both in the same focal plane and the scope is now appropriately parallaxed for that range.

If you start at about 3.10 you'll skip some of the waffle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T97GCZqbZio

Spannerman7

Just pay the freakin €20 for the adjustable and leave the hammer and chizzle in the shed, in fairness.

clivej

extremetaz wrote: »

Firstly, my Nite-eye is AO so I understand the importance of the issue, particularly at close range.

However, IMO, parallax "adjustment" is only a requirement where the range to target varies.

Both of the scopes mentioned come with fixed parallax yes, but that's absolutely no harm for target as you simply readjust it once and leave it alone. It's a very simple thing to do and for target applications, particularly at such low magnification, it's a perfectly appropriate solution.

Now I'm not saying don't go for an AO or SWAT scope, I'm just saying that it isn't as absolutely necessary as it's being made out in the given context.

extremetaz wrote: »

All scopes are adjustable for parallax - for marketing purposes though, only the ones designed for variable parallax are titles as being "adjustable".

"Fixed" parallax scopes simply come with the parallax preset to a determined range.

This video is a bit waffley, but it explains the principles pretty well.

Don't mind the "ruining your scope" nonesense - you'd have to be a complete moron to screw this up. There's also absolutely no need to break the seal on the scope tube, or even to completely remove the locking ring in order to make the adjustment.

In my experience, although the locking ring is usually seriously tight, once it's slacked off even a few turns, then both rings will turn together reasonably easily.

At that stage it's just a case of setting the scope on max mag, and dialling in the front ring until both the reticle and the target are both sharp. At this point they're both in the same focal plane and the scope is now appropriately parallaxed for that range.

If you start at about 3.10 you'll skip some of the waffle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T97GCZqbZio

What your saying is a load of TOSS.

Quote
"However, IMO, parallax "adjustment" is only a requirement where the range to target varies."

So with his hunting rifle he will need to get to the same distance from the target every time to be in focus. NOT the best situation is it now??
I have tried to use a scope without parallax adjustment, set at 100y, at 50y and the target was so out of focus that I couldn't/wouldn't use it.

NOW I have use a lovely little expensive 10x40 fixed parallax scope that I did as you say above and moved the front ring in/out as needed. It worked BUT most of my shots were at 75y so that was OK.

THEY SELL adjustable parallax scopes SO YOU CAN ADJUST THEM

extremetaz

As mentioned in the OP and several times within the thread, his application is target shooting, not hunting. In fact, there very first mention of the word hunting was actually made by yourself.

skinnylizzy wrote: »

I'm a total noob to Target shooting and I'm waiting for my license to come through for a little .22 I bought. I need to buy a scope for it on a budget, would anyone have any opinions on the two scopes I have linked below?

I also mentioned that my advise was for applications where the range was fixed.

extremetaz wrote: »

However, IMO, parallax "adjustment" is only a requirement where the range to target varies.

Further to that, even if he were going into the field with a fixed parallax scope, where the mag is as low as it is (the models in question potentially being as low as 3x - which is perfectly appropriate for fieldwork in this caliber), and given .22LR effective range, you're STILL perfectly fine with a fixed parallax scope set to about 50m.

Now I appreciate that you have a differing opinion, and I have no problem with that - I also appreciate that AO and SWAT scopes are available and are an option - but I do not appreciate the cander of your response.

The bottom line is that for the application outlined in the OP, an appropriately recalibrated fixed parallax scope *IS* entirely sufficient and that IMO having a variable parallax scope is not as big an advantage as it is being made out to be. That doesn't mean "don't get", it means "don't feel that you must have".


I'll finally add that there's a Bushnell Banner, and some sort of an el-cheapo "Vector" scope on each of my auld boys rifles.
The banner is a 3-9x or something like that and I think the vector is a fixed 4x. I've recalibrated the parallax on both of them to about 60m and they both function absolutely perfectly as vermin rifles.

gearoidol

extremetaz wrote: »

All scopes are adjustable for parallax - for marketing purposes though, only the ones designed for variable parallax are titles as being "adjustable".

"Fixed" parallax scopes simply come with the parallax preset to a determined range.

This video is a bit waffley, but it explains the principles pretty well.

Don't mind the "ruining your scope" nonesense - you'd have to be a complete moron to screw this up. There's also absolutely no need to break the seal on the scope tube, or even to completely remove the locking ring in order to make the adjustment.

In my experience, although the locking ring is usually seriously tight, once it's slacked off even a few turns, then both rings will turn together reasonably easily.

At that stage it's just a case of setting the scope on max mag, and dialling in the front ring until both the reticle and the target are both sharp. At this point they're both in the same focal plane and the scope is now appropriately parallaxed for that range.

If you start at about 3.10 you'll skip some of the waffle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T97GCZqbZio

worst piece of advice I've ever seen given on this forum.

This guy is new to target shooting and just had a quick question about scopes.I believe the answer is just to buy ao versions of the ones listed or similar

extremetaz

I have no issue with advising the purchase of an AO scope - only with the sentiment that it be a necessity.

The bottom line is that the scopes he enquired about are perfectly fine - that was the question asked and answered.

extremetaz

ROFL!!!

S.W.A.T. stands for Side Wheel Adjustable Turret.

Your Sidewinder???

THAT'S A SWAT SCOPE!!

[FACEPALM]

gearoidol wrote: »

Also I don't like the way you refer to ao scopes as swot scopes.
I've had/have

Hawke sidewinder 30

All with adjustable ao and I am not currently or have never served as a member of a swot team .

gearoidol

extremetaz wrote: »

ROFL!!!

S.W.A.T. stands for Side Wheel Adjustable Turret.

Your Sidewinder???

THAT'S A SWAT SCOPE!!

[FACEPALM]

If u can pick urself up of the floor for a sec that was a misread while surfing on phone immediately corrected before ur reply.

Would u mind talking me through the procedure in shooting 2 groups at 50 ,75,100,and 125 using both a hawke sport hd non ao using your method of ensuring correct parallax setting at each distance and shooting the same groups using an ao version which just cost a few quid more

It wasn't me!

Keep your head in the centre of the scope and parallax ceases to be an issue. Funny how people manage to shoot good groups with iron sights, the classic parallax non-adjustable option. Targets don't need to be in focus to shoot good groups, as you should be focusing on either your foresight or your reticle. The original point of parallax adjustment on optics is to range the target. If it makes it easier to hit with a dodgy head position, that's a side effect (benefit?), but if your head is in the right place, parallax is a total non-issue.

extremetaz

gearoidol wrote: »

If u can pick urself up of the floor for a sec that was a misread while surfing on phone immediately corrected before ur reply.

duely noted

gearoidol wrote: »

Would u mind talking me through the procedure in shooting 2 groups at 50 ,75,100,and 125 using both a hawke sport hd non ao using your method of ensuring correct parallax setting at each and distance and shooting the same groups using an ao version which just cost a few quid more

I didn't propose one - in fact I stated several times that the technique was appropriate for fixed distance applications.

You seem to be of the opinion that I'm knocking AO scopes. I'm not - as I've mentioned, I own one myself and make very good use of the AO facility.

All I did was point out that for fixed range use, the fixed parallax scope would be fine - and I stand by that - there's nothing incorrect about it.

Now I really didn't mean to stir up this amount of fuss - it was simply an appropriate answer to the question posed.

You disagree, and that's fine, I've no problem with that and I can respect your viewpoint entirely.

However, the manner in which you have responded to my assertions is not only inflammatory, but it has lead to the sort of bickering which we see far too regularly on here and, to my own shame, I have fallen to the level of engaging in it with my previous post.

Now I stand by EVERYTHING I've said to date, and I'll happily debate my advice within the context in which it was offered for as long as you wish to engage me - however, I do feel that at this point all we're doing is showing what is a very constructive and useful forum in a very bad light, particularly given the nature of the OP.

To summarise Skinnylizzy: I have advised that the either of the scopes you have presented would be perfectly adequate for your purpose.

CliveJ and Gearoidol, however ingraciously, disagree and feel that you would be better served by investing a small amount more and going for a scope which has adjustable parallax available.

I agree in so far as the adjustable scope will indeed be more flexible than a fixed scope, however I do not conceed that it is a requirement unless your range to target will vary significantly. Ultimately I believe that by the time the budget fixed scope is holding you back, you'll be contemplating upgrading to something far superiour in any case.

I wish you all the best in your new hobby and hope to see you become a regular contributor on here.

gearoidol

skinnylizzy wrote: »

gearoidol, what sites should I be scanning for a deal like that????? Just ebay? Or do you guys in the know trawl specific sites? Cheers.

Thanks again guys.

ebay is a good one but you would do well to contact the seller to make sure they are ok with shipping to Ireland.There are certain restrictions from exporting from the uk that some ebay users adhere to and more ignore.

The for sale section here is good and should give you abit of choice over a two or three week period.If you want a bushnell of any sort try www.binoculars-uk.co.uk and ask for simon.A 6-18x50 is €171 delivered as far as I know.And also don't forget your local rfd ,they can often be great value and very easy to throw a faulty scope back up on the counter if a problem arises.

Originally Posted by extremetaz
I didn't propose one - in fact I stated several times that the technique was appropriate for fixed distance applications.


That is the problem.The op never mentioned he would be shooting at fixed distances.I just think its nice to be able to take a shot at different distances and stay in focus without having togo messing with your scope to the extent you are suggesting.

clivej

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Keep your head in the centre of the scope and parallax ceases to be an issue. Funny how people manage to shoot good groups with iron sights, the classic parallax non-adjustable option. Targets don't need to be in focus to shoot good groups, as you should be focusing on either your foresight or your reticle. The original point of parallax adjustment on optics is to range the target. If it makes it easier to hit with a dodgy head position, that's a side effect (benefit?), but if your head is in the right place, parallax is a total non-issue.

Different kettle of fish completely

AND if you can focus on the fore sight, front sight and the target at the same time your a better man that I. ;) I mean focus your eyes on them, not just see them all in view.

With a scope picture you are viewing the reticle and target in one image at the SAME TIME. Thats what the ring at the back of the eye lens is for, to focus the reticle to your eye. The parallax is to focus the target. Bingo all is seen in the same image.

Parallax on a scope is a REQUIREMENT to focus your target view at diffeent distances. It becomes far more important at the higher magnifications. AS you well know IWM :rolleyes:

clivej

extremetaz

OK so with target shooting at 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600 yards YOU would expect the user to have to sit there and re-adjust the front objective ring, not a parallax ring, to keep the target in focus.

You'd look a bit of a dickhead doing this in competition.

Best bit of BAD advice to a novice I have seen in a while now.

Vegeta

clivej wrote: »

extremetaz

OK so with target shooting at 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600 yards YOU would expect the user to have to sit there and re-adjust the front objective ring, not a parallax ring, to keep the target in focus.

You'd look a bit of a dickhead doing this in competition.

Best bit of BAD advice to a novice I have seen in a while now.

Come on Clive this is a .22lr for target shooting, at best it'll be used on 2 ranges 50 meter and 100. Fixed parallax is perfectly fine for that.

Hell, how do we think people managed for quite a long time until externally adjustable parallax scopes became more widely available.

Completely reasonable recommendation for target shooting imho. If it was hunting where distance from shot to shot will vary greatly OR a rifle capable of short and extended ranges then I'd have a different opinion.

clivej

skinnylizzy

I'm shooting a semi auto 10/22 .22lr in club free practice or national competition most weekends and still I will use the parallax adjustment on my Banner 6-18x50 at 10m, 15m, 25m and 50m to keep the target in focus. If the scope is set at the correct parallax at say 25m if I don't re-correct the parallax at the 10m range I'm fecked to view the target. This is all using a high zoom, in the 10-17 range at all times. Target X bull ring is 1" and all shots taken standing.

My advice as said above get a nice Bushnell 4-16x40 AO banner you won't be dissapointed. And I'll but it off ya if you are ;)

clivej

Vegeta wrote: »

Come on Clive this is a .22lr for target shooting, at best it'll be used on 2 ranges 50 meter and 100. Fixed parallax is perfectly fine for that.

Hell, how do we think people managed for quite a long time until externally adjustable parallax scopes became more widely available.

Completely reasonable recommendation for target shooting imho. If it was hunting where distance from shot to shot will vary greatly OR a rifle capable of short and extended ranges then I'd have a different opinion.

OK I take your point but people managed before because they mostly used low powered zoom scopes, 4 or 6 at most, where the parallax doesn't come into play as much. And you can use the old trick of bringing your head back from the scope to reduce the parallax error.

gearoidol

Vegeta wrote: »

Come on Clive this is a .22lr for target shooting, at best it'll be used on 2 ranges 50 meter and 100. Fixed parallax is perfectly fine for that.

Hell, how do we think people managed for quite a long time until externally adjustable parallax scopes became more widely available.

Completely reasonable recommendation for target shooting imho. If it was hunting where distance from shot to shot will vary greatly OR a rifle capable of short and extended ranges then I'd have a different opinion.

A buddy of mine bought a cz 452 for target shooting a couple of months ago.He put a bsa sweet scope on top and the parallax was so bad it was a nightmare.He recently swapped it out for a 2nd hand leupold 4-12x40 with no parallax adjustment and he's getting on fine because the glass is 100 times better and he has no issues staying in focus at any distance from 50 to 120 yards.

Now I had one of the hawke scopes the op linked that he was going to buy and the glass was so poor you badly needly parallax adjustment to make up for it.So I think in the bottom of the range scope where the glass is poor you need parallax adjustment to mainly save you having to walk up to check group sizes cos you cant see clear enough through the scope.

Vegeta

I personally would buy an adjustable parallax scope myself because I'd like to be able to transfer that piece of hardware to another rifle someday if the need arose. I just think extremetaz is taking more heat than is deserved for his recommendation.

You're definitely right about the magnification, if the image is fuzzy to begin with and you zoom way in on it, then it looks a mess.

My father has a 30ft/lb air rifle and that has a fixed parallax scope and being honest I don't even know what the parallax is set to. I've used that from 5m to 60 and have never found it a limiting factor in accurate shot placement.

skinnylizzy

I'd just like to say thank you to everyone that has contributed to this thread . Although it got I bit hot and heavy there for a while, it's nice to see people so passionate about their sport and its great to know that so many people are willing to offer their experiences and advice to a novice. I found all of the advice very interesting and helpful. Thanks a mill guys.

It wasn't me!

clivej wrote: »

Different kettle of fish completely

AND if you can focus on the fore sight, front sight and the target at the same time your a better man that I. ;) I mean focus your eyes on them, not just see them all in view.

You can't. Nobody can, and that's fine. Like I said, the target does not have to be in focus to shoot good groups. In fact, if the target is in focus, you're not focusing on your foresight, and you're pretty much guaranteed to shoot bad groups.

With a scope picture you are viewing the reticle and target in one image at the SAME TIME. Thats what the ring at the back of the eye lens is for, to focus the reticle to your eye. The parallax is to focus the target. Bingo all is seen in the same image.

True, but the issue is that the target being in focus isn't necessary to shoot it, provided it allows you something to form a sight picture with. Now, I'll concede that for a benchrest shooter with the tiny black ring, that might grey out when out of focus, and if that's the only issue here, then I will absolutely agree that if you can't see it to form a sight picture, there's a problem, but others have mentioned that parallax can lead to errors through your own movements, and the answer to that is, as I said, keep your head in the middle of the scope's image.

Parallax on a scope is a REQUIREMENT to focus your target view at diffeent distances. It becomes far more important at the higher magnifications. AS you well know IWM :rolleyes:

Parallax is important to focus the scope. The question is whether focusing the scope at a given distance is actually necessary, and that will depend on the aiming mark. On the benchrest targets which are all white with just a tiny black ring, I can see it being necessary. On anything bigger and solid-coloured? No, I'm happy to have it out of focus. And for the record, parallax and its effects on high magnification are one of the reasons I'm not a big fan of it, just as an aside.

extremetaz

clivej wrote: »

extremetaz

OK so with target shooting at 100, 200,...

You'd look a bit of a dickhead doing this in competition.

Best bit of BAD advice to a novice I have seen in a while now.

:rolleyes: Morning all.

I've edited out the rediculous from the above (and indeed some of what I've left is is open to debate) - but left the rest there in order to retain the character of the post.

Now... seen as you guys appear to be having so much difficulty with reading what I've actually written, and the meaning of the word "context", please allow me to spell things out one more time.

Several times I have mentioned that parallax adjustment is only required (for coincidence of the target and reticle planes for sharpness at least) when the distance to target varies greatly. At close range and at high mag, I'll concede that the effects are exacerbated - however, given the fact that the OP is just getting into shooting, and will be shooting at only 2 ranges realistically (and far more likely only one), and is highly unlikely to be doing any sort of competitive shooting with an entry level general purpose rig in any case, then I absolutely cannot see that the fixed scope poses a significant enough disadvantage that it be deemed "necessary" to get something better.

Better is always better - that's a no brainer - but it's not always necessary - and *THAT* is the point which I have been labouring to make.

Incidentally, if push really came to shove, I'm curious to know what exactly you guys think the difference is between an AO scope, and a fixed scope with the locking ring removed in any case?...



Now, moving on, whilst I understand that you two disagree with my opinion - and I fully respect that and I wouldn't seek to deny you your opinion, I'm curious as to why you chose to conduct your rebuttle in such an aggressive and inflammatory manner - it's entirely unnecessary and I personally find it more than a little offputting. It's the sort of behaviour which leads people to abandon a forum and whilst you quite evidently don't agree with me, and most likely would not lament my absence, that does not excuse the practice of effectively attempting to bully a party out of their viewpoint. Honestly, it's the sort of thing I'd expect to see on the airsofting forum - not on a forum of individuals who have been deemed mature enough to own firearms. Now come on - is a little adult debate really too much to ask for??

Kinzig

Now, moving on, whilst I understand that you two disagree with my opinion - and I fully respect that and I wouldn't seek to deny you your opinion, I'm curious as to why you chose to conduct your rebuttle in such an aggressive and inflammatory manner - it's entirely unnecessary and I personally find it more than a little offputting. It's the sort of behaviour which leads people to abandon a forum and whilst you quite evidently don't agree with me, and most likely would not lament my absence, that does not excuse the practice of effectively attempting to bully a party out of their viewpoint. Honestly, it's the sort of thing I'd expect to see on the airsofting forum - not on a forum of individuals who have been deemed mature enough to own firearms. Now come on - is a little adult debate really too much to ask for

I have to agree with your sentiments ...some of these guys that are being so aggressive havent been shooting as long as some of the young fellas on the airsofting forum