Magdalen Laundry stories.

Hazys

vitani wrote: »

I often find myself wondering what the big scandals of this generation are - what, in 20/30 years, will our children look back on and find themselves disgusted by.

I don't think there would be anything comparable (in Ireland at least). The first world presently has been the most peaceful and civil it's been in all of history. Who knows? In 20/30 years, the world might be a worse place to live.

I know in 20/30 years homosexuality will be a common thing and when we tell our kids that people used to have very strong views against homosexuality and we didn't let them marry, our kids will be like that's mad and disgusting. But to be fair, we are not locking up gay people and forcing them into slave labor.

Morag

Hazys wrote: »

But to be fair, we are not locking up gay people and forcing them into slave labor.

But that was the penalty under law, it was what Oscar Wilde was sentenced to and that same penalty under that same Act is the one which is still legally applicable to drs & women who preform abortions in this country.

Hazys

Morag wrote: »

But that was the penalty under law, it was what Oscar Wilde was sentenced to and that same penalty under that same Act is the one which is still legally applicable to drs & women who preform abortions in this country.

Is it applied today?

lazygal

Hazys wrote: »

Is it applied today?

Penal servitude is generally applied as meaning a prison sentence. As the setup of prisons is vastly different to what it was when 1861 OATP Act was passed, it would be nearly impossible to apply its full range of punishments today.

lazygal

vitani wrote: »

I often find myself wondering what the big scandals of this generation are - what, in 20/30 years, will our children look back on and find themselves disgusted by.

I think gay rights and the lack of marriage equality will be a big one. Also, the abortion issue being ignored for so long, and then only addressed because an outside body told us to.

I also think children being in legal limbo because their parents are married will be an issue. AFAIK the law around adopting children of married parents still hasn't been changed so those children are, ironically, sometimes more vulnerable than children already in the care system.

Morag

Hazys wrote: »

Is it applied today?

It is still on the books, is current law and can be applied.

It's an 1861 Offences against the Person Act, still applies here and in the North of Ireland but the sections re homosexual here stuck out there after the Norris case.

Molecule

vitani wrote: »

I often find myself wondering what the big scandals of this generation are - what, in 20/30 years, will our children look back on and find themselves disgusted by.

Perhaps the way we treat asylum seekers? http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/1019/1224325457404.html

Whole families forced to live in one room for years on end as they await a verdict on their application, never knowing how long it'll take for them to be processed and being unable to work (or leave) in the meantime. Also, all asylum seekers are housed together with little or no regard for racial or ethnic differences and the difficulties this could cause. I had no idea how bad it was until I met a family who'd been in such circumstances for years with no idea when they would hear if they'd been successful or if they were to be deported. I asked them who was acting as a liaison for them (thinking maybe a social worker or solicitor or someone like that) but there was no-one. A SW I later spoke to said that she had tried to work with the children of the residents of this particular facility, many of whom had serious mental health issues as a result of their living conditions, but that basically it had been of her own volition and with HSE cuts she was unable to do so anymore. The whole scenario was just appallingly grim.

On the topic of Magdalen laundries - it really is unbearably sad to read these stories and to see how these women were treated. My dad has stories about a similar place (not a Magdalen) near to where he grew up. He remembers as a teenager feeling really sorry for the girls, who were forced to work outside picking turnips or potatoes in all kinds of weather. He also remembered his mother saying how they'd brought it upon themselves :mad: Women are so often the worst enemies of other women.

mariaalice

To be fair it was not about people knowing and doing nothing, its very hard for one individual to stand to up to a whole society, plus you had different levels of knowing and different attitude. The idea of being respectable has a grip on society.

The nuns that ran the laundries were someones daughter or sister or cousin and were a part of Irish society just the same as anyone else they did not appearer out of nowhere.

What I find hard to understand is the casual attitude to children that seemed to have been prevalent. I have listened and read of various accounts of the laundries and industrial school, children in care.. it really is amazing the amount that had parents alive sometime two parents yet they still gave their children to the nuns.

I think it a very complex problem and very had to make sense of why it happened.

Scarinae

Macha wrote: »

Here is the documentary that apparently inspired the movie, The Magdalene Sisters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtxOePGgXPs

I just watched the entire thing, it is absolutely heartbreaking

The video description says this documentary was blacklisted by RTÉ. I wonder if they'll ever change their minds and screen it?

coffee_cake

lazygal wrote: »

I also think children being in legal limbo because their parents are married will be an issue. AFAIK the law around adopting children of married parents still hasn't been changed so those children are, ironically, sometimes more vulnerable than children already in the care system.

I think that was changed in the childrens referendum yoke last year wasn't it

lazygal

mariaalice wrote: »

What I find hard to understand is the casual attitude to children that seemed to have been prevalent. I have listened and read of various accounts of the laundries and industrial school, children in care.. it really is amazing the amount that had parents alive sometime two parents yet they still gave their children to the nuns.

I asked my parents about this for a project in college on attitudes to children. Both came from large-ish rural families. They said children were very much seen and not heard, were viewed as the property of their parents and the 'honour thy father and thy mother' commandment was frequently used to put children in their place. Maybe its a combination of having so many children that you don't see them as individuals to be cherished, but rather a brood to be reared who are there to provide labour on the family farm or in the family business until they can pay their own way. My mum in particular had hair raising stories about her and her sisters being terrorised by a local flasher on the way to school, it never occurred to them to tell anyone, she says because adults were never to be questioned by children.

My father's mother, he now realises, was put under serious pressure to put some or all of her children into the care of the nuns after his father died when quite young, leaving a large young family. His mother kept the family together, and I imagine she had a hard life, but until her death she viewed her children as useful units of production to her and if they weren't helping or pandering to her, she applied serious emotional blackmail, reminding them that but for her they'd be down with the nuns, so she must have had an idea of what they'd be in for if they did have to go to that place. All had busy lives, families and careers of their own but she regularly called our house demanding my father help on the family farm, do maintenance for her and other jobs, and put a lot of pressure on her female adult children to provide her with clothes, do housework and bring her to mass, despite none of them living near her and all having their own busy lives.

I think people simply saw children as small adults who needed to begin to contribute as soon as possible otherwise they were a drain on the family. There's no sense from my grandparents (one of whom would certainly have thrived in academia as he won a scholarship at 12 but wasn't allowed to take it up) that their parents saw them as anything other than labour for the farm. You see that a lot with adult children in rural areas often being put under a lot of pressure to remain at home well after they should be independent. It also happened to families with businesses, I remember reading an interview with the man who owned Hector Gray's in Dublin, he won a scholarship for Trinity but wasn't allowed to go and had to go to work in the family business. If you've a large family, which many people had out of lack of contraception, children can be a burden if they aren't willing to contribute to the coffers.

lazygal

bluewolf wrote: »

I think that was changed in the childrens referendum yoke last year wasn't it

But primary legislation has yet to be enacted, so such children are still in limbo. The Bill to change it hasn't even been drafted yet.

midlandsmissus

Re: the woman who said her mother said they brought it on themselves.

My mother, who is a very compassionate person, and watched the film with me, recounted to me:

When she was young (born in late 1940's): her and her generation were told how bad and evil the girls in the laundries were. That they were there for being wicked bad.

And she just thought that they must have done really awful things.

It was society, it was what people were told.

Nobody was going to say there were girls there that were raped, I'm sure that was all hushed up.

People were just told they were wicked. Add to that the iron grip the Catholic church had on the country, and people were not going to question the system.

midlandsmissus

That documentary is heartbreaking, and Im rarely moved to tears anymore.

It was only the film that was shown on Irish television,not the documentary.

Madam_X

lazygal wrote: »

To say 'we didn't know and what could we have done' isn't really cutting it as an excuse for me.

Well what could people have done? What would you have done? It's very easy to feel you'd have done something to stop it, from your position in 2013. The hindsight perspective is pointless IMO. People like Morrigan's nana did little things, which required a lot of bravery, but the sum of these wasn't enough, sadly. Not everyone knew. My dad remembers wondering all right but never would have thought the degree of horror was going on, and as I said, truly believed the church was kindness and love. Now that he knows the truth, he has nothing but venom to spew re same (unlike some folks who unfortunately reckoned they deserved it). Generations were made mugs of - I'd imagine he feels quite betrayed.

Chronic Button wrote: »

There is horrendous abuse taking place today in institutions all over this country, and nobody cares. The reports are published and nothing changes. When will we learn?

Of course people care. It's not my or your fault that the government does not see it as high enough a priority. The "We elected them" doesn't wash IMO - they are still responsible for their actions/inaction; they are elected in good faith.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

People did know. It's the old human adage: if it's not happening to you: you don't care.

But you care. And plenty of others do. People were the same then, but they were in completely different circumstances - circumstances we can't relate to.

Molecule wrote: »

Perhaps the way we treat asylum seekers? http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/1019/1224325457404.html

Whole families forced to live in one room for years on end as they await a verdict on their application, never knowing how long it'll take for them to be processed and being unable to work (or leave) in the meantime. Also, all asylum seekers are housed together with little or no regard for racial or ethnic differences and the difficulties this could cause. I had no idea how bad it was until I met a family who'd been in such circumstances for years with no idea when they would hear if they'd been successful or if they were to be deported. I asked them who was acting as a liaison for them (thinking maybe a social worker or solicitor or someone like that) but there was no-one. A SW I later spoke to said that she had tried to work with the children of the residents of this particular facility, many of whom had serious mental health issues as a result of their living conditions, but that basically it had been of her own volition and with HSE cuts she was unable to do so anymore. The whole scenario was just appallingly grim.

There's no "we" about it. In fairness, I know when people use "we", they're referring to the state as a whole, not literally ordinary people... but it still implies more collective responsibility than it should. It is our moral, ethical duty to help and protect those who are vulnerable whenever we possibly can. But it's not always possible, sadly. Otherwise, the cruelty out there wouldn't carry on the way it does. If we were to feel responsible for every violation of a helpless person, we wouldn't be able to carry on...

With regards to the Laundries, the insistence on blaming wider society smacks to me of "The orders won't be punished so let's blame someone else." It's just not right to redirect the blame from the abusers IMO. Dangerous thinking tbh - along the lines of the same thinking that landed children in those living hells ("Your mother sinned, now you'll pay").

The_Morrigan

I just watched the documentary on youtube that was posted. Although I know what went on, I am still sick to my stomach when I hear stories directly from the mouths of those that were absolutely betrayed and abused. I just can't fathom how anyone could inflict that abuse on another human being.

I spoke to my parents about this earlier today, because to me, it's just hearsay as I wasn't alive - Mom said that she didn't understand what my grandparents were trying to do, but she always remembers strangers being around the house a lot - scared, timid women that would sit quietly and offer to scrub the house from top to bottom and bathe the children. At the time she had no idea though.

It was only when the stories broke about the abuse in the laundries that it all came together, but at that point my grandmother was dead, thankfully Pops was still alive and he shared the story with us all.

Stheno

vitani wrote: »

I often find myself wondering what the big scandals of this generation are - what, in 20/30 years, will our children look back on and find themselves disgusted by.

The appalling history of the HSE in taking care of youngsters, there have been many stories in the media about it, them going missing including the young boy in care who was found in a ditch in Meath.

lazygal wrote: »

I think gay rights and the lack of marriage equality will be a big one. Also, the abortion issue being ignored for so long, and then only addressed because an outside body told us to.

I also think children being in legal limbo because their parents are married will be an issue. AFAIK the law around adopting children of married parents still hasn't been changed so those children are, ironically, sometimes more vulnerable than children already in the care system.

We've gotten equal rights for same sex couples, and the redress scheme for cohabiting couples so that's one less to worry about.

bluewolf wrote: »

I think that was changed in the childrens referendum yoke last year wasn't it

It was.

lazygal wrote: »

But primary legislation has yet to be enacted, so such children are still in limbo. The Bill to change it hasn't even been drafted yet.

It's high on the agenda though unlike the x case, government have to pass it to get admitted into the UN rights of the child group.

I got threatened as a child with being "sent away" I wasn't a particularly bold child, I was fairly rebellious as I had an overly high IQ and acted out out of boredom at home. My parents were incredibly strict (I first got to go to a disco when I was eighteen), physical punishment was the norm, and being "sent away" was regularly used to curb "bad" behaviour, such as reading after lights out, or an argument/debate about religion.

That was 25-30 years ago with parents who grew up in a very harsh environment and transferred what they knew of parenting to their own children (I was the eldest)

It changed radically through their 30 years of child rearing to the point that I've a very cordial relationship now with my mother, but I'd never ever bring up some of the (frankly horrifying) aspects of my childhood with her, actions she condoned and stood by, notwithstanding the threats.

Ken.

This report needs to be the straw that breaks the camels back. Every asset of every catholic religious order in Ireland needs to be stripped from them,every priest or nun found complicit needs to be punished and a proper apology needs to be given to the people affected by them. Let them fück off to the vatican if they don't like it.

There are people who's lives are destroyed because of what was done to them in places like artane and the laundries and they need to be looked after. Fück the priests out of their cushy mansions and turn them into hostels for these people.

Stheno

ken wrote: »

This report needs to be the straw that breaks the camels back. Every asset of every catholic religious order in Ireland needs to be stripped from them,every priest or nun found complicit needs to be punished and a proper apology needs to be given to the people affected by them. Let them fück off to the vatican if they don't like it.

There are people who's lives are destroyed because of what was done to them in places like artane and the laundries and they need to be looked after. Fück the priests out of their cushy mansions and turn them into hostels for these people.

This report is reflective of Ireland in the 70s and 80s for those old enough to be affected by it.

I'd a school friend who's Mum was her "sister" so her sister/mother didn't have to go to a laundry, the whole social ethos back then was so vastly different to now that it's hard to understand how this could happen, but it did, with state and garda collusion, and with many families using it as a threat against their daughters.

25% of those committed to the laundries were done so by the State, 10% by the Courts, who sent the other 65%? How bad were State facilities that the Laundries were a better option.

If you've read the report, most of those sent to the laundries were there for less than five years, it's the minority who were there for more, and God love them who lived and died there and are in annoymous graves who will never be acknowleged

Going back to my previous post, that was the culture at the time, you were either a good girl or not, and there were plenty of threats, and this was in the 70s/80s.

I remember my former mother in law when the movie came out (which according to the report is based on extremes in the laundry) saying that were she not from a financically able background she would have been in a laundry for robbing orchards, and being generally mischeiveous.

mariaalice

Anyone who committed abuse in the laundries or industrial school should be have to account for what they did and if any of them are still alive they should be prosecuted, however that dose not let society off the hook, it is too easy to just blame individuals and not look at the wider context. The industrial schools and laundries were a product of that society

Ambersky

During my childhood and adolescence I remember hearing stories about what the Nazis did to people during the second world war, in concentration camps and on the streets of Europe in the decade before I was born. I wondered how such evil could have happened, how so many people could have stood by and let it happen or actively supported the Nazi party or could simply say that they didnt know what was going on.
I remember watching a documentary about people who had risked their lives to hide or to save Jews contrasted with people who had done nothing but survive themselves and the programme makers said individuals from both groups concluded that they acted as they did because they - didnt have any other choice. Both groups felt that with the situation and information they had at the time that they had no choice but to do as they did. Those who acted felt they had no choice at the time and those who did not act felt they had no choice at the time. Isnt that interesting.

There is a theory that all if not most of us in our lives will at some stage or other be faced with that moral dilemma to act or not to act against injustice, be it big or small, and that we can if we want to put value on the kinds of attributes that lead a person to act with courage for themselves and others. The theory goes that we can encourage children to believe in themselves and that they can act in the world as forces for positive change.

This is how it was for me and this is how I now look on it, others may experience it differently.
When one is facing one of these moral dilemmas you dont realise at the time that this is a big issue that will be looked back on by future generations as an issue with an obvious injustice that needs to be stood up to.
Things happen within a context there are studies that show that if you are assaulted in public you are more likely to be assisted by one person who comes across it than a group of people. With a group individuals can be afraid to stand out and can leave things up to everyone else. If you find yourself facing an injustice there are usually a lot of people telling you to calm down, to remind you of the trouble you could get into, the trouble people you love could get into, to tell you that you are exaggerating etc etc. To tell you that you are not looking at this thing correctly, that there is good happening here, that it is necessary, that you do not have all the facts and anyway how dare you judge what is going on. That you just dont have the bigger picture.
Usually you are aware that there is only a small thing you can do anyway and the issue itself is probably, if it is serious, on a scale you cant actually stop or fix. You will be met with a silence that is deafening. It will cost you personally and emotionally to continue focusing on this issue and you can choose to continue or to give up. Even the people you are helping may at times sabotage their own cause, get caught out in lies, look for negative attention and when things start happening to change things that can be really difficult too.

I think when talking about the Magdalene laundrys and any other recent revelation we get caught up in absolutes and extremes.
Either Nobody knew or Everybody knew.
I imagine there are all kinds of things going on now like the treatment of asylum seekers or immigrants as already mentioned but there could also be a lot going on for children in their own homes. I remember seeing a programme about how few resorces how understaffed and inundated child protection officers are.
The programme said only the most severe cases were being dealt with and complaints could take a very long time to get dealt with, if they ever got seen to. Is that still the case, Do we know and if we do what can we do about it.
There will probably always be injustices going on. Sometimes they will come right up to us and into our awareness and sometimes they will be further away, in another town, in another country. How do we pick the ones to get involved in knowing there is also a limit on what you can do and that you must take care of yourself also.

pwurple

There is a aspect of how completely differently children were treated then as well. Nothing would have been thought of a grown up neighbour slapping someone else's child on the street. Factories had child workers. Fathers where the mother died would rarely consider looking after their own children. Industrial schools... Seen and not heard. Spare the rod and spoil the child. Grainding poverty, poor education and casual violence towards children at levels we can barely comprehend nowadays were normal everyday occurances in Ireland not too long ago. A severe child beating was practically considered good parenting at the time.

It's not an excuse, but it's certainly a bit of context maybe to why people didn't react if they did know.

The magdelene laundry women deserve some sort of compensation, and I hope they get it.

eviltwin

I don't buy the idea of "it was a different time", maybe it was, society changes and evolves and I accept that the average person on the street probably had no idea of what went on in these places but abuse is abuse, it cannot be justified under the norms of the society at the time. Remember the last laundry only closed in 1996. Not that long ago. Were the women in that laundry being subjected to this abuse right up until the end?

Ambersky

Ambersky wrote: »

During my childhood and adolescence....

Very wise post Ambersky.

pwurple

I know what you mean eviltwin. I don't think we can disregard historical context. if a randomer in the street slapped my child today I would be appauled and probably charge them with assault. My grandparents would not have batted an eyelid if that happened to one of their children. You hear it everytime slapping gets into the news. "I was leathered with a belt and it did me no harm". People it was not happening to just did not register it as unusual.

I believe the last woman sent to a laundry was around 1969? That's 4 decades ago. even though they remained remained running since. (That is a foggy memory from the radio, does anyone have the exact date? )

If 16,000 claims for deafness from the army can be paid out, I really don't see why these women can't put forward a claim.

Kash

My mother was born in one, in Cork. She got out with her mother - a rarity - and was raised as her mothers sister. She only found out teh real situation in the 90s. She was actually contacted by an ex-employee who was writing a book a few years ago to talk about it.

Unfortunately, my nanna died without ever telling anybody all the details, so it's all a bit hazy. I'd love tpo know more, but I find the stories very upsetting and hard to read/watch. I can only imagine how it must have felt to liove through them.

diabeticmum

Hi, I have heard some horrible stories from ladies who survived these hell holes. It makes me really upset that I could have wound up in one if I had my daughter 10 years earlier. From talking to some people there doesnt seem to be any understanding of the real torture that went on, its like "sure if they didnt go there they'd be in jail" a direct quote.

Im posting a link of a petition you may be interested in signing.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/383/013/750/i-would-like-to-personally-apologise-to-magdalene-laundries-survivors/#

diabeticmum

All signatures count,
I noted someone mentioned Sinead o'Connor, she got a reply back from the religious order she wrote about,


http://www.sineadoconnor.com/

KittyeeTrix

My mam was placed in an industrial school when she was abandoned as a 6 month old...
She was classed as slow and was made to work in the adjoining laundry from the age of 12.
The nuns doctored her records to state that at the age of 16 she left the "care" of the nuns to work as a domestic when in actual fact she was kept working in the laundry until she was 21........
Very upsetting all week in work listening to the stories of the girls in these places. Brings up very bad feelings again:(

Madam_X

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't buy the idea of "it was a different time", maybe it was, society changes and evolves and I accept that the average person on the street probably had no idea of what went on in these places but abuse is abuse, it cannot be justified under the norms of the society at the time.

It was though. The rights of the child were not recognised. Globally. Particularly poor children.
On the flipside, just because something awful is happening and supported by the government/law, doesn't mean there is unanimous support for it, but there is only so much power individuals have. The might of the church... I don't think we, most of us born into a much more secular Ireland, can truly appreciate the scale of power it had.

Remember the last laundry only closed in 1996. Not that long ago. Were the women in that laundry being subjected to this abuse right up until the end?

No, the official system discontinued in the early '70s. The places remained open though.