The aul' patriotism now, is it?

old hippy

Recently, it's been noticed that when people hilight discrimination in Ireland and such other ills, they are somehow tarnishing the country. The country that is loved by patriots - implying that somehow, to point out negative things is by nature, unpatriotic or un-Irish.

How can someone be tarnishing Ireland by pointing out the evils of discrimination? Surely it's those who practice discrimination who bring the country into disrepute.

Surely hilighting faults and questioning them is a good thing.

Death and Taxes

old hippy wrote: »

Recently, it's been noticed that when people hilight discrimination in Ireland and such other ills, they are somehow tarnishing the country. The country that is loved by patriots - implying that somehow, to point out negative things is by nature, unpatriotic or un-Irish.

How can someone be tarnishing Ireland by pointing out the evils of discrimination? Surely it's those who practice discrimination who bring the country into disrepute.

Surely hilighting faults and questioning them is a good thing.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" (Doctor Samuel Johnson).
In this case it is often the only refuge of the bigotted and ill educated.
I myself have been frequently castigated as being "anti Irish" on Boards because of my stance on equality.

Airitech

old hippy wrote: »

Recently, it's been noticed that when people hilight discrimination in Ireland and such other ills, they are somehow tarnishing the country. The country that is loved by patriots - implying that somehow, to point out negative things is by nature, unpatriotic or un-Irish.

How can someone be tarnishing Ireland by pointing out the evils of discrimination? Surely it's those who practice discrimination who bring the country into disrepute.

Surely hilighting faults and questioning them is a good thing.

Depends how its put. Pointing out a problem is fair enough, exaggerating the scale of the issue and claiming say, Irish society as a whole is endemically racist will get people's backs up.

Airitech

WileyCoyote wrote: »

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" (Doctor Samuel Johnson).
In this case it is often the only refuge of the bigotted and ill educated.
I myself have been frequently castigated as being "anti Irish" on Boards because of my stance on equality.

It's also often the refuge of people who genuinely love their country and culture.

old hippy

Airitech wrote: »

It's also often the refuge of people who genuinely love their country and culture.

I've heard that phrase many times over the years. I still don't understand it; can you explain how someone can "genuinely" love a country? What if someone likes their country but "loves" a country that is not their own? Are they still a patriot? Or a traitor? Or a slut?

squod

old hippy wrote: »

I've heard that phrase many times over the years. I still don't understand it; can you explain how someone can "genuinely" love a country?

The same way as you can love anything.

summerskin

old hippy wrote: »

I've heard that phrase many times over the years. I still don't understand it; can you explain how someone can "genuinely" love a country? What if someone likes their country but "loves" a country that is not their own? Are they still a patriot? Or a traitor? Or a slut?

I'm British, for example. I like Britain, but don't love it. I've lived in various countries, and the one I "love" is France. I had the best quality of life when i was there, met fantastic people, the culture fits me perfectly and the food and drink is the best in the world(IMO).

Yet, if someone talking to me attacks the UK, I will always defend it due to an underlying patriotism that is inherently there.

nelly17

I think if you cant take constuctive criticisim GTFO and stop hiding under something. To be fair the politicians do enough of a job tarnishing the country without someone who points it out needing to be lambasted.

I'[ll give you a few recent examples

old hippy

summerskin wrote: »

I'm British, for example. I like Britain, but don't love it. I've lived in various countries, and the one I "love" is France. I had the best quality of life when i was there, met fantastic people, the culture fits me perfectly and the food and drink is the best in the world(IMO).

Yet, if someone talking to me attacks the UK, I will always defend it due to an underlying patriotism that is inherently there.

I'll hilight good and bad things about Ireland and when I feel someone (here in London) is being unfair about it; I'll defend it.

That said, I still don't get the patriotism lark, or why someone would be "proud". I mean, I'm happy and all that but pride? Nah.

Airitech

old hippy wrote: »

I've heard that phrase many times over the years. I still don't understand it; can you explain how someone can "genuinely" love a country? What if someone likes their country but "loves" a country that is not their own? Are they still a patriot? Or a traitor? Or a slut?

You can do whatever you want, there is no obligation to appreciate any country or culture. If you don't understand why people take pride in their own country that's fine but don't be surprised when they defend it.

Hourglass Shrugged

Patriotism/nationalism is merely sheep politics, used as another opiate for the masses who blindly submit and reinforce the perceived legitimacy of the state.

Patriotism/nationalism is merely primitive tribalism. I see little difference being patriotism and arguing in your local pub about which soccer team you support.

I see little reason why I should care about someone I don't know living 200 km away who just so happens to have a similar accent as me and shares a similar culture to me. I don't feel as though I should owe that person anything more than any other human being.

old hippy

nelly17 wrote: »

I think if you cant take constuctive criticisim GTFO and stop hiding under something. To be fair the politicians do enough of a job tarnishing the country without someone who points it out needing to be lambasted.

Tbf, lying politicians are a global epidemic but our particular brand (with one or two noteable exceptions) are particulary cringe inducing...

nelly17

True but are these guys not the ones who claim themselves to be steadfast patriots

MaxSteele

Sure 99.9 % of us have all referred to this place as a "kip" or "damp sh*thole" at some point when flying away to the Mediterranean.

On a side note: Post 1,000 baby

Pompey Magnus

WileyCoyote wrote: »

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" (Doctor Samuel Johnson).

A misrepresentation of Samuel Johnson's true feeling on the subject. The person who provided the quote, James Boswell, explained that the context in which Johnson was referring to was only false patriotism.

A more representative quotation of Samuel Johnson's view of patriotism would be:

"A patriot is he whose public conduct is regulated by one single motive, the love of his country; who, as an agent in parliament, has, for himself, neither hope nor fear, neither kindness nor resentment, but refers every thing to the common interest."

crockholm

old hippy wrote: »

I'll hilight good and bad things about Ireland and when I feel someone (here in London) is being unfair about it; I'll defend it.

That said, I still don't get the patriotism lark, or why someone would be "proud". I mean, I'm happy and all that but pride? Nah.

If you don't have it,you don't have it. It makes you no less of an Irishman than me,and I love my country, I love coming back and talking to the people,driving the roads,eating the food and just living my life here. I really am at my happiest when I am in Ireland

old hippy

Airitech wrote: »

You can do whatever you want, there is no obligation to appreciate any country or culture. If you don't understand why people take pride in their own country that's fine but don't be surprised when they defend it.

But is shouting down those who hilight discrimination and paint them as anti-Irish "defending" your country?

Is that the correct response from people who "genuinely love their country and culture"?

The Idyl Race

old hippy wrote: »

But is shouting down those who hilight discrimination and paint them as anti-Irish "defending" your country?

Is that the correct response from people who "genuinely love their country and culture"?

I've been accused elsewhere of being "Anti-irish" and bizarrely "self-hating" when I express my belief that the IRA during the troubles were every bit as much a murder gang as the loyalists. Frankly that sort of patriotism can be kept for the goons chanting "ooh ah up the 'Ra" at Wolfe Tones gigs.

old hippy

crockholm wrote: »

If you don't have it,you don't have it. It makes you no less of an Irishman than me,and I love my country, I love coming back and talking to the people,driving the roads,eating the food and just living my life here. I really am at my happiest when I am in Ireland

That's great. I lived most of my life in Ireland and there were times I couldn't wait to escape. But there were also times that I loved experiencing. The moments that are now lost forever. When I visit (it never feels like "returning") I like to catch up with family and friends and see places that I don't normally see. And, as the wife loves to mention repeatedly, there always seems to be a bit of grit in my eye when the plane touches down in Dublin or Cork

I may not be in love with the place but I'm full of sentiment...

old hippy

The Idyl Race wrote: »

I've been accused elsewhere of being "Anti-irish" and bizarrely "self-hating" when I express my belief that the IRA during the troubles were every bit as much a murder gang as the loyalists. Frankly that sort of patriotism can be kept for the goons chanting "ooh ah up the 'Ra" at Wolfe Tones gigs.

Ah yes, the uber patriots. I've had one or two run ins with them myself

Airitech

old hippy wrote: »

But is shouting down those who hilight discrimination and paint them as anti-Irish "defending" your country?

Is that the correct response from people who "genuinely love their country and culture"?

Depends on the context. If its a legitimate complaint then its serves no purpose hiding behind patriotism. On the other hand if it isn't people can rightly take offence.

No one would stand for me insulting or generalising about other groups. I won't stand for it either.

So context really decides it as far as I'm concerned.

K-9

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

A misrepresentation of Samuel Johnson's true feeling on the subject. The person who provided the quote, James Boswell, explained that the context in which Johnson was referring to was only false patriotism.

A more representative quotation of Samuel Johnson's view of patriotism would be:

"A patriot is he whose public conduct is regulated by one single motive, the love of his country; who, as an agent in parliament, has, for himself, neither hope nor fear, neither kindness nor resentment, but refers every thing to the common interest."

Going back over the last 30 years or so I don't think there are many big political figures you could say that about, Garret probably, John Hume, others probably came close but party interests often over took national interests, people like Dick Spring, Adams, McGuinness and others I'd put down as their heart was in the right place but party interest sometimes superceded the national interest. Garret abd Hume would have their critics but I think they genuinely did what they thought was right for the country first, party second.

Alan Dukes is probably the best example, put party electoral interests very much second and paid for it politically. Shame FG are the complete opposite to then.

Airitech

Airitech wrote: »

Depends on the context. If its a legitimate complaint then its serves no purpose hiding behind patriotism. On the other hand if it isn't people can rightly take offence.

No one would stand for me insulting or generalising about other groups. I won't stand for it either.

So context really decides it as far as I'm concerned.

Perfect example of misguided "patriotism" on the Rape in Cork thread just now.

One poster questions something they feel is racist/biased and they get questioned on whether their parents and grandparents were Irish and told that they sound like they don't have a drop of Irish blood in them.

There was no reason to bring that into the debate and it wasn't fair on the poster involved. Everyone is entitled to their opinion just as everyone else is entitled to disagree with it. What happened there was just pointless.

I can't quote it all but here is the link:

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056868842?page=9

The Idyl Race

Airitech wrote: »

Perfect example of misguided "patriotism" on the Rape in Cork thread just now.

One poster questions something they feel is racist/biased and they get questioned on whether their parents and grandparents were Irish and told that they sound like they don't have a drop of Irish blood in them.

There was no reason to bring that into the debate and it wasn't fair on the poster involved. Everyone is entitled to their opinion just as everyone else is entitled to disagree with it. What happened there was just pointless.

I can't quote it all but here is the link:

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056868842?page=9

Think that sort of comment shows up those who make it to be the vigourous masturbators that they are.

9959

Airitech wrote: »

Depends how its put. Pointing out a problem is fair enough, exaggerating the scale of the issue and claiming say, Irish society as a whole is endemically racist will get people's backs up.

I've never read a post in which such a claim was made.

Rasheed

9959 wrote: »

I've never read a post in which such a claim was made.

I think he was only using that as an example. And I think he has a point.

Saying any group has a specific trait or train of thought is wrong and unfair. To say it about your own, of course you're going to disagree if you feel differently.

Eve_Dublin

old hippy wrote: »

But is shouting down those who hilight discrimination and paint them as anti-Irish "defending" your country?

Is that the correct response from people who "genuinely love their country and culture"?

This is not right but AH is full to the gills of posters spouting absolute unsubstantiated nonsense about it being the worst place on the planet. That gets my back up because jesus christ, you really need to get out more if you think it is. The moaning and complaining based on nothing...that´s what gets me.


I love Ireland and despite the fact that it´s a bit idiotic, I like to say I´m from here. It tends to get a good response and makes life a little easier for me. I like visiting Ireland. I liked living there and left only to go to university 8 years ago (but got "stuck" abroad because of love). I liked most of the people and the nights out and the sense of humour. I´m not a RA head by any means. I despise the IRA and Sinn Fein and any ****e talk about a united Ireland without any justification and "just cos the Brits are coonts" nonsense (despite coming from a Republican family) but I have a genuine appreciation for where I´m from. I also love Argentina and Colombia and Italy and would be as patriotic if I was born in any of those countries. I don´t think Ireland is "superior" but it as aspects to it that I appreciate and miss.

Is that patriotism? I feel annoyed that Irish Patriotism has been hijackeed by RA heads to be honest. Patriotism can simply be a love for one's country and with no underlying sinister beliefs. When someone spouts on about what a **** hole it is, I take umberage to that, so I defend it. That´s only extreme cases. There´s plenty wrong with Ireland but that moaning without anything real to back it up gets to me. It´s as bad as any ranting about great the IRA are and how the Brits are bstards. I´ll listen to any arguement once it´s backed up with proof and a rational, calm argument.

9959

Airitech wrote: »

Depends how its put. Pointing out a problem is fair enough, exaggerating the scale of the issue and claiming say, Irish society as a whole is endemically racist will get people's backs up.

9959 wrote: »

I've never read a post in which such a claim was made.

Rasheed wrote: »

I think he was only using that as an example. And I think he has a point.

Saying any group has a specific trait or train of thought is wrong and unfair. To say it about your own, of course you're going to disagree if you feel differently.

It's an example alright, an example of a 'Straw Man'.

Madam_X

9959 wrote: »

I've never read a post in which such a claim was made.

I certainly have. There's a few posters who just love to go on about how racist and backwards and ignorant "we" are. Don't know how you haven't seen it.

old hippy

Madam_X wrote: »

I certainly have. There's a few posters who just love to go on about how racist and backwards and ignorant "we" are. Don't know how you haven't seen it.

Yes, there are sweeping generalisations all round. In general

Ignorance is a global thing, though. One of the most pleasing and wonderful things, I've found, is talking to people far removed from where you started out and finding them very well informed on Ireland

9959

old hippy wrote: »

Recently, it's been noticed that when people hilight discrimination in Ireland and such other ills, they are somehow tarnishing the country. The country that is loved by patriots - implying that somehow, to point out negative things is by nature, unpatriotic or un-Irish.

How can someone be tarnishing Ireland by pointing out the evils of discrimination? Surely it's those who practice discrimination who bring the country into disrepute.

Surely hilighting faults and questioning them is a good thing.

Airitech wrote: »

Depends how its put. Pointing out a problem is fair enough, exaggerating the scale of the issue and claiming say, Irish society as a whole is endemically racist will get people's backs up.

9959 wrote: »

I've never read a post in which such a claim was made.

Madam_X wrote: »

I certainly have. There's a few posters who just love to go on about how racist and backwards and ignorant "we" are. Don't know how you haven't seen it.

'Airtech' was directly responding to the opening post by 'Old Hippy', in which no such exaggerated claims of endemic racism were made.

Show me the post(s) where accusations of Ireland, or the Irish, being 'endemically racist' were made, and I too will disagree with that particular opinion.
In the meantime I'll take Old Hippy's post as read, in which no disparaging remarks were levelled against Ireland or Irish people in general.
Admittedly I tend to agree with 'Old Hippy' on most issues - he's the only Hippy I've ever liked- but I honestly believe that he makes a very valid, thought-provoking point in his opening remarks.

sdanseo

Surely pointing out the flaws in your country, with the overall aim of ridding the nation of those problems, would be a truer sign of patriotism?

The "ah, it'll be grand" attitude is all very well in small measures but it isn't a sign that you love your country - it's a sign that you're happy out with your own lot and really couldn't give a flying shít.

poeticseraphim

**** patriotism.


It is always the patriot who ignore the crimes of the state and country.

The state sponsored the church and allowed widespread abuse of it's own people and still does.


I hate patriotism. It is pointless and brainwashed crap.


It always seems to be right wing too trying to determine what is and is not Irish.


Patriotism in my opinion is not very Irish.

And using it to hide discrimination shows what it really is about. There is huge discrimination in Ireland and not a lot to fight it at Govt level or in society. What the so called young educated middle class/upper think is alright to call people or behave like is shocking regarding racism sometimes. And they are rarely told off by those in authority who can be worse.

A lot of third level foreign students get pissed off about comments from their middle aged lecturers as much as anyone else.

Doc Ruby

9959 wrote: »

'Airtech' was directly responding to the opening post by 'Old Hippy', in which no such exaggerated claims of endemic racism were made.

What, you mean a bit like this?

poeticseraphim wrote: »

There is huge discrimination in Ireland and not a lot to fight it at Govt level or in society. What the so called young educated middle class/upper think is alright to call people or behave like is shocking regarding racism sometimes. And they are rarely told off by those in authority who can be worse.

A lot of third level foreign students get pissed off about comments from their middle aged lecturers as much as anyone else.

This is an example of a racist post, since it applies a negative stereotype to one ethnic group/nation without a single shred of evidence to back it up. On the contrary, this country is far, far superior to any of our European neighbours (and probably most of the world) in terms of welcoming foreigners.

I find this thread interesting; the title is deliberately inflammatory, echoing the "The aul' racism now, is it?" thread on purpose, implying that Old Hippy feels Irish patriotism, taking pride in being Irish, is somehow racism. There really are people who think like that, and they all sit north of the border.

Still, maybe that's reading too much into a title. The actual OP however is a bizarre mystery. Who was pointing out the evils of this mythical discrimination and got tarred as anti-Irish? There's been one link so far, and that poster got banned for trolling, so eh.

Maybe you could clarify with examples what you're trying to say, Old Hippy.

Grayson

old hippy wrote: »

I'll hilight good and bad things about Ireland and when I feel someone (here in London) is being unfair about it; I'll defend it.

I think that's called being realistic. Defend good things. Admit the bad ones (And try to fix them).

old hippy

Doc Ruby wrote: »

What, you mean a bit like this?

This is an example of a racist post, since it applies a negative stereotype to one ethnic group/nation without a single shred of evidence to back it up. On the contrary, this country is far, far superior to any of our European neighbours (and probably most of the world) in terms of welcoming foreigners.

I find this thread interesting; the title is deliberately inflammatory, echoing the "The aul' racism now, is it?" thread on purpose, implying that Old Hippy feels Irish patriotism, taking pride in being Irish, is somehow racism. There really are people who think like that, and they all sit north of the border.

Still, maybe that's reading too much into a title. The actual OP however is a bizarre mystery. Who was pointing out the evils of this mythical discrimination and got tarred as anti-Irish? There's been one link so far, and that poster got banned for trolling, so eh.

Maybe you could clarify with examples what you're trying to say, Old Hippy.

" On the contrary, this country is far, far superior to any of our European neighbours (and probably most of the world) in terms of welcoming foreigners."

But not a shred of evidence to back it up, mind.

"implying that Old Hippy feels Irish patriotism, taking pride in being Irish, is somehow racism."

But not a shred of evidence to back it up, mind. Damn those implications.

"Who was pointing out the evils of this mythical discrimination and got tarred as anti-Irish? There's been one link so far, and that poster got banned for trolling, so eh"

You've just called someone a racist for saying there's huge discrimination in Ireland.

And then there's this

"There really are people who think like that, and they all sit north of the border."

Sounds like negative stereotyping to me. Or racist, even :rolleyes:

And that's what happens, every discussion on racism inevitably turns in on itself and counter accusations are levelled and so on, ad nauseum.

vincit qui se vincit

1) Patriotism is not the same as nationalism. I wish people would understand this basic difference made by all academics.

2) Patriotism has many positive features. It can be negative, but it frequently has positive connotations. In Ireland the oldest widely-recognised form of patriotism is one defending the rights of people - the Remonstrance by Dónall Ó Néill and others in 1317 - rather than opposing other people. Patriotism positively defined is a very different thing to patriotism negatively defined.

Anyway, continue with the stereotypes.

Doc Ruby

old hippy wrote: »

" On the contrary, this country is far, far superior to any of our European neighbours (and probably most of the world) in terms of welcoming foreigners."

But not a shred of evidence to back it up, mind.

Please point out the right wing anti immigrant political parties, the race riots, and the institutional discrimination in Ireland. Most of our neighbours have a far worse track record, this is undeniable fact.

old hippy wrote: »

"implying that Old Hippy feels Irish patriotism, taking pride in being Irish, is somehow racism."

But not a shred of evidence to back it up, mind. Damn those implications.

This is like saying it's not an apple because shoelaces. You directly copied the title of a thread about racism and pasted in your own patriotism shtick over the top. The evidence is in the fact that you did it. Are you not trying to draw parallels between the two, and if not, why would you do that?

old hippy wrote: »

You've just called someone a racist for saying there's huge discrimination in Ireland.

The face, she is palmed. Calling the KKK racist is not racism, not that I'm saying the abovementioned poster is a racist - that would be you trying and failing to put words in my mouth - it is quite possible they are mislead. Or what would you call making sweeping and false negative statements about entire ethnic groups.

old hippy wrote: »

And then there's this

"There really are people who think like that, and they all sit north of the border."

Sounds like negative stereotyping to me. Or racist, even :rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My5cf2zlkpo

Sounds like you've got your own agenda.

old hippy wrote: »

And that's what happens, every discussion on racism inevitably turns in on itself and counter accusations are levelled and so on, ad nauseum.

I note you haven't provided an example of this patriotic whitewashing as requested politely in my previous post.

Chuck Stone

The Idyl Race wrote: »

I've been accused elsewhere of being "Anti-irish" and bizarrely "self-hating" when I express my belief that the IRA during the troubles were every bit as much a murder gang as the loyalists.

Your belief doesn't amount to a hill of shite.

Madam_X

9959 wrote: »

'Airtech' was directly responding to the opening post by 'Old Hippy', in which no such exaggerated claims of endemic racism were made.

Show me the post(s) where accusations of Ireland, or the Irish, being 'endemically racist' were made, and I too will disagree with that particular opinion.
In the meantime I'll take Old Hippy's post as read, in which no disparaging remarks were levelled against Ireland or Irish people in general.
Admittedly I tend to agree with 'Old Hippy' on most issues - he's the only Hippy I've ever liked- but I honestly believe that he makes a very valid, thought-provoking point in his opening remarks.

I'm not sure why you think Old Hippy is being blatantly disagreed with. He has put forward that there are some people who think any badmouthing at all re Ireland is "treacherous" and all that bollix. And he's right. Some folks can't handle even the most justified criticism re Ireland/Irish society.

However, there are times when there is stuff said here putting down Irish people that is unbelievably harsh - and if it weren't (ironically) said by Irish people it would happily be defined as anti Irish. All Airtech meant was it depends what the criticism in question is.

I'm actually not nationalistic/patriotic at all - I just don't agree with any nationality being unfairly condemned as a whole, including my own.

But stuff like we've an unhealthy relationship with alcohol (I know we don't all, but it is still endemic in society), there are terribly parochial mindsets here, atrocious roads, terrible public transport - just constructive criticism IMO.

There are DEFINITELY a few posters who like to say Ireland is a really racist, terrible place for foreigners though. Definitely.

9959

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

A misrepresentation of Samuel Johnson's true feeling on the subject. The person who provided the quote, James Boswell, explained that the context in which Johnson was referring to was only false patriotism.

A more representative quotation of Samuel Johnson's view of patriotism would be:

"A patriot is he whose public conduct is regulated by one single motive, the love of his country; who, as an agent in parliament, has, for himself, neither hope nor fear, neither kindness nor resentment, but refers every thing to the common interest."

Does the above quote refer to the common interest of all, regardless of boundaries, or is that 'common interest' restricted to those with whom we share a piece of land?

"Patriotism is a superstition artificially created and maintained through a network of lies and falsehoods; a superstition that robs man of his self-respect and dignity, and increases his arrogance and conceit" - Emma Goldman

Correct me If I'm wrong, but was it not the late Brian Lenihen who, after delivering a extremely harsh austerity budget speech, told the house that it was their 'patriotic duty' to support it.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

What, you mean a bit like this?

This is an example of a racist post, since it applies a negative stereotype to one ethnic group/nation without a single shred of evidence to back it up. On the contrary, this country is far, far superior to any of our European neighbours (and probably most of the world) in terms of welcoming foreigners.

I find this thread interesting; the title is deliberately inflammatory, echoing the "The aul' racism now, is it?" thread on purpose, implying that Old Hippy feels Irish patriotism, taking pride in being Irish, is somehow racism. There really are people who think like that, and they all sit north of the border.

Still, maybe that's reading too much into a title. The actual OP however is a bizarre mystery. Who was pointing out the evils of this mythical discrimination and got tarred as anti-Irish? There's been one link so far, and that poster got banned for trolling, so eh.

Maybe you could clarify with examples what you're trying to say, Old Hippy.

In relation to national identity/character - a nebulous concept to begin with - your use of the word 'superior' makes me decidedly jittery, it automatically infers that there are 'inferior' peoples, or nations of people, simply because they are 'other', and not Irish.
When it comes to integration and/or - in your own words- 'welcoming foreigners', we're only at the starting gate compared to some of the other countries of which you are so dismissive.

I sincerely hope that you're correct in your assessment of the 'superior' Irish, personally I believe that we have the capacity to be as enlightened, or as atavistic, as any of our European neighbours.
It's up to all of us to keep a watching brief, our Irishness in itself will not render us immune to the poison of xenophobia and its concomitant racist ideologies.

Madam_X wrote: »

I'm not sure why you think Old Hippy is being blatantly disagreed with. He has put forward that there are some people who think any badmouthing at all re Ireland is "treacherous" and all that bollix. And he's right. Some folks can't handle even the most justified criticism re Ireland/Irish society.

However, there are times when there is stuff said here putting down Irish people that is unbelievably harsh - and if it weren't (ironically) said by Irish people it would happily be defined as anti Irish. All Airtech meant was it depends what the criticism in question is.

I'm actually not nationalistic/patriotic at all - I just don't agree with any nationality being unfairly condemned as a whole, including my own.

But stuff like we've an unhealthy relationship with alcohol (I know we don't all, but it is still endemic in society), there are terribly parochial mindsets here, atrocious roads, terrible public transport - just constructive criticism IMO.

There are DEFINITELY a few posters who like to say Ireland is a really racist, terrible place for foreigners though. Definitely.

'Airtech' inferred, then extrapolated a 'for example' from something which was never stated in Old Hippy's post.
That was, and is, my point.

Popinjay

I can't be arsed searching for examples now, but in my time on boards, I've seen a fair whack of responses along the lines of "If you don't like it then fuck off".

I'd see that as the highest example of this shitty faux-patriotism to be honest.

To take an example that should ring true to a lot of these 'patriots':

Should Emmet, Tone, Collins or any of the others just have fucked of since they didn't like the present situation, or should they have done what they did and actively tried to change it?

A true patriot should always be prepared to challenge and change what he loves, lest he lose it forever.

And if that isn't a quote I don't remember reading, it bloody well should be.

Ush1

While it's good to point out injustices, in the global scheme of discrimination and racism Ireland is far from the worst, even in just the western world.

Popinjay

Ush1 wrote: »

While it's good to point out injustices, in the global scheme of discrimination and racism Ireland is far from the worst, even in just the western world.

Well as long as somebody is worse than us then it's ok.

I've never understood that attitude.

If people genuinely care about their country, they should consistently try to improve it. Not just accept that the kurdmenistanis have slightly worse attitudes to inter-gender gardening, so all is hunky-dory.

Rasheed

Popinjay wrote: »

I can't be arsed searching for examples now, but in my time on boards, I've seen a fair whack of responses along the lines of "If you don't like it then f[SIZE="2"]u[/SIZE]ck off".

I'd see that as the highest example of this sh[SIZE="2"]i[/SIZE]tty faux-patriotism to be honest.

To take an example that should ring true to a lot of these 'patriots':

Should Emmet, Tone, Collins or any of the others just have f[SIZE="2"]u[/SIZE]cked of since they didn't like the present situation, or should they have done what they did and actively tried to change it?

A true patriot should always be prepared to challenge and change what he loves, lest he lose it forever.

And if that isn't a quote I don't remember reading, it bloody well should be.

Well what would you advise someone to do if they 'hated' the country and having to live here?

If they had a problem with the weather, the government, the people, the customs etc?

Every week, there is a thread about how 'shîte' the entire country is, how we all just lie back and take it up the arse from the government, we're useless compared to x,y and z when it comes to a, b and c.

Some thing you can change, some things you can't. If unchangable things such as weather and the type of people bothers you in a country, surely the best thing for your mental and physical health is to leave.

Ush1

Popinjay wrote: »

Well as long as somebody is worse than us then it's ok.

I've never understood that attitude.

If people genuinely care about their country, they should consistently try to improve it. Not just accept that the kurdmenistanis have slightly worse attitudes to inter-gender gardening, so all is hunky-dory.

.

Ush1 wrote: »

While it's good to point out injustices

Popinjay

Rasheed wrote: »

Well what would you advise someone to do if they 'hated' the country and having to live here?

If unchangable things such as weather and the type of people bothers you in a country, surely the best thing for your mental and physical health is to leave.

I left in 2009, so I'm hardly one to talk. That said, I left a job that I'd still have had, and all of my friends and family, to follow a girl. So I didn't leave because I 'hated' anything. Quite the opposite.

Still, I hated some things about Ireland and still do. Just like I hate some things about where I am now.

Weather-wise; It is the inalienable right of every individual in the world to complain about their local weather. If that really gets somebody's back up (to the point that they think the person should piss of to some other part of the world - as if complaining about the weather is a direct attack on the morals, values and social structure of a country), I suggest they speak doctor about some form of medication, or possibly a lobotomy, because the problem is with them, not every other person in the world.

The type of people: This generally refers to general social attiudes to things (unless you're talking about people complaining about the every-day arseholes we all encounter. In this case, I more strongly recommend medication for anybody who takes this as anything more than venting petty frustrations). We should complain about social attitudes to things, such as treatment of travellers, equality for all sexualities, genders and skin colours, proper financial regulation (including self-regulation by the individual), etc, etc, etc.

If we don't complain about things, how do you suggest we seek change?

Popinjay

Ush1 wrote: »

.

Then what in the name of all that is good and holy was your point about Ireland being 'far from the worst'?

We should be aiming to be, at the very least, close to the best.

Given some attitudes and laws in other countries, 'far from the worst' may as well be damning the nation with faint praise/

Pol Pot was far from the worst (Hipster-godwin, Adolf is too mainstream).

old hippy

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Your belief doesn't amount to a hill of shite.

Actually, the majority of Irish folk believe pretty much that one self appointed bunch of paramilitaries are as bad as the other.

Ush1

Popinjay wrote: »

Then what in the name of all that is good and holy was your point about Ireland being 'far from the worst'?

The point was a statement of fact aimed at people with feigning outrage as if Ireland is Israel, or even France with regards discrimination problems.

Popinjay wrote: »

We should be aiming to be, at the very least, close to the best.

That's a nice ideal which I concur with however in reality it may not be always top of the agenda.

Popinjay wrote: »

Given some attitudes and laws in other countries, 'far from the worst' may as well be damning the nation with faint praise/

Faint praise it may be but it's the truth.

Popinjay wrote: »

Pol Pot was far from the worst (Hipster-godwin, Adolf is too mainstream).

See, comparing Ireland and Pol Pot is kind of what I was getting at.

Popinjay

Ush1 wrote: »

Whole post

I know that perfection might be impossible, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be a goal.

I love my fiancee and she loves me, we both push each other much harder than we push ourselves, because we care.

There's nothing like a first person view to promote apathy and excuses, what's wrong with someone pointing this out?