The aul' patriotism now, is it?

sdanseo · 04-02-2013 02:12PM

Surely pointing out the flaws in your country, with the overall aim of ridding the nation of those problems, would be a truer sign of patriotism?

The "ah, it'll be grand" attitude is all very well in small measures but it isn't a sign that you love your country - it's a sign that you're happy out with your own lot and really couldn't give a flying shít.

poeticseraphim · 04-02-2013 02:12PM

**** patriotism.

It is always the patriot who ignore the crimes of the state and country.

The state sponsored the church and allowed widespread abuse of it's own people and still does.

I hate patriotism. It is pointless and brainwashed crap.

It always seems to be right wing too trying to determine what is and is not Irish.

Patriotism in my opinion is not very Irish.

And using it to hide discrimination shows what it really is about. There is huge discrimination in Ireland and not a lot to fight it at Govt level or in society. What the so called young educated middle class/upper think is alright to call people or behave like is shocking regarding racism sometimes. And they are rarely told off by those in authority who can be worse.

A lot of third level foreign students get pissed off about comments from their middle aged lecturers as much as anyone else.

Doc Ruby · 04-02-2013 03:18PM

9959 wrote: »

'Airtech' was directly responding to the opening post by 'Old Hippy', in which no such exaggerated claims of endemic racism were made.

What, you mean a bit like this?

poeticseraphim wrote: »

There is huge discrimination in Ireland and not a lot to fight it at Govt level or in society. What the so called young educated middle class/upper think is alright to call people or behave like is shocking regarding racism sometimes. And they are rarely told off by those in authority who can be worse.

A lot of third level foreign students get pissed off about comments from their middle aged lecturers as much as anyone else.

This is an example of a racist post, since it applies a negative stereotype to one ethnic group/nation without a single shred of evidence to back it up. On the contrary, this country is far, far superior to any of our European neighbours (and probably most of the world) in terms of welcoming foreigners.

I find this thread interesting; the title is deliberately inflammatory, echoing the "The aul' racism now, is it?" thread on purpose, implying that Old Hippy feels Irish patriotism, taking pride in being Irish, is somehow racism. There really are people who think like that, and they all sit north of the border.

Still, maybe that's reading too much into a title. The actual OP however is a bizarre mystery. Who was pointing out the evils of this mythical discrimination and got tarred as anti-Irish? There's been one link so far, and that poster got banned for trolling, so eh.

Maybe you could clarify with examples what you're trying to say, Old Hippy.

Grayson · 04-02-2013 03:20PM

old hippy wrote: »

I'll hilight good and bad things about Ireland and when I feel someone (here in London) is being unfair about it; I'll defend it.

I think that's called being realistic. Defend good things. Admit the bad ones (And try to fix them).

old hippy · 04-02-2013 06:41PM

Doc Ruby wrote: »

What, you mean a bit like this?

This is an example of a racist post, since it applies a negative stereotype to one ethnic group/nation without a single shred of evidence to back it up. On the contrary, this country is far, far superior to any of our European neighbours (and probably most of the world) in terms of welcoming foreigners.

I find this thread interesting; the title is deliberately inflammatory, echoing the "The aul' racism now, is it?" thread on purpose, implying that Old Hippy feels Irish patriotism, taking pride in being Irish, is somehow racism. There really are people who think like that, and they all sit north of the border.

Still, maybe that's reading too much into a title. The actual OP however is a bizarre mystery. Who was pointing out the evils of this mythical discrimination and got tarred as anti-Irish? There's been one link so far, and that poster got banned for trolling, so eh.

Maybe you could clarify with examples what you're trying to say, Old Hippy.

" On the contrary, this country is far, far superior to any of our European neighbours (and probably most of the world) in terms of welcoming foreigners."

But not a shred of evidence to back it up, mind.

"implying that Old Hippy feels Irish patriotism, taking pride in being Irish, is somehow racism."

But not a shred of evidence to back it up, mind. Damn those implications.

"Who was pointing out the evils of this mythical discrimination and got tarred as anti-Irish? There's been one link so far, and that poster got banned for trolling, so eh"

You've just called someone a racist for saying there's huge discrimination in Ireland.

And then there's this

"There really are people who think like that, and they all sit north of the border."

Sounds like negative stereotyping to me. Or racist, even :rolleyes:

And that's what happens, every discussion on racism inevitably turns in on itself and counter accusations are levelled and so on, ad nauseum.

vincit qui se vincit · 04-02-2013 07:14PM

1) Patriotism is not the same as nationalism. I wish people would understand this basic difference made by all academics.

2) Patriotism has many positive features. It can be negative, but it frequently has positive connotations. In Ireland the oldest widely-recognised form of patriotism is one defending the rights of people - the Remonstrance by Dónall Ó Néill and others in 1317 - rather than opposing other people. Patriotism positively defined is a very different thing to patriotism negatively defined.

Anyway, continue with the stereotypes.

Doc Ruby · 04-02-2013 07:29PM

old hippy wrote: »

" On the contrary, this country is far, far superior to any of our European neighbours (and probably most of the world) in terms of welcoming foreigners."

But not a shred of evidence to back it up, mind.

Please point out the right wing anti immigrant political parties, the race riots, and the institutional discrimination in Ireland. Most of our neighbours have a far worse track record, this is undeniable fact.

old hippy wrote: »

"implying that Old Hippy feels Irish patriotism, taking pride in being Irish, is somehow racism."

But not a shred of evidence to back it up, mind. Damn those implications.

This is like saying it's not an apple because shoelaces. You directly copied the title of a thread about racism and pasted in your own patriotism shtick over the top. The evidence is in the fact that you did it. Are you not trying to draw parallels between the two, and if not, why would you do that?

old hippy wrote: »

You've just called someone a racist for saying there's huge discrimination in Ireland.

The face, she is palmed. Calling the KKK racist is not racism, not that I'm saying the abovementioned poster is a racist - that would be you trying and failing to put words in my mouth - it is quite possible they are mislead. Or what would you call making sweeping and false negative statements about entire ethnic groups.

old hippy wrote: »

And then there's this

"There really are people who think like that, and they all sit north of the border."

Sounds like negative stereotyping to me. Or racist, even :rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My5cf2zlkpo

Sounds like you've got your own agenda.

old hippy wrote: »

And that's what happens, every discussion on racism inevitably turns in on itself and counter accusations are levelled and so on, ad nauseum.

I note you haven't provided an example of this patriotic whitewashing as requested politely in my previous post.

Chuck Stone · 04-02-2013 08:42PM

The Idyl Race wrote: »

I've been accused elsewhere of being "Anti-irish" and bizarrely "self-hating" when I express my belief that the IRA during the troubles were every bit as much a murder gang as the loyalists.

Your belief doesn't amount to a hill of shite.

Madam_X · 04-02-2013 10:49PM

9959 wrote: »

'Airtech' was directly responding to the opening post by 'Old Hippy', in which no such exaggerated claims of endemic racism were made.

Show me the post(s) where accusations of Ireland, or the Irish, being 'endemically racist' were made, and I too will disagree with that particular opinion.
In the meantime I'll take Old Hippy's post as read, in which no disparaging remarks were levelled against Ireland or Irish people in general.
Admittedly I tend to agree with 'Old Hippy' on most issues - he's the only Hippy I've ever liked- but I honestly believe that he makes a very valid, thought-provoking point in his opening remarks.

I'm not sure why you think Old Hippy is being blatantly disagreed with. He has put forward that there are some people who think any badmouthing at all re Ireland is "treacherous" and all that bollix. And he's right. Some folks can't handle even the most justified criticism re Ireland/Irish society.

However, there are times when there is stuff said here putting down Irish people that is unbelievably harsh - and if it weren't (ironically) said by Irish people it would happily be defined as anti Irish. All Airtech meant was it depends what the criticism in question is.

I'm actually not nationalistic/patriotic at all - I just don't agree with any nationality being unfairly condemned as a whole, including my own.

But stuff like we've an unhealthy relationship with alcohol (I know we don't all, but it is still endemic in society), there are terribly parochial mindsets here, atrocious roads, terrible public transport - just constructive criticism IMO.

There are DEFINITELY a few posters who like to say Ireland is a really racist, terrible place for foreigners though. Definitely.

05-02-2013 11:50AM

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

A misrepresentation of Samuel Johnson's true feeling on the subject. The person who provided the quote, James Boswell, explained that the context in which Johnson was referring to was only false patriotism.

A more representative quotation of Samuel Johnson's view of patriotism would be:

"A patriot is he whose public conduct is regulated by one single motive, the love of his country; who, as an agent in parliament, has, for himself, neither hope nor fear, neither kindness nor resentment, but refers every thing to the common interest."

Does the above quote refer to the common interest of all, regardless of boundaries, or is that 'common interest' restricted to those with whom we share a piece of land?

"Patriotism is a superstition artificially created and maintained through a network of lies and falsehoods; a superstition that robs man of his self-respect and dignity, and increases his arrogance and conceit" - Emma Goldman

Correct me If I'm wrong, but was it not the late Brian Lenihen who, after delivering a extremely harsh austerity budget speech, told the house that it was their 'patriotic duty' to support it.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

What, you mean a bit like this?

This is an example of a racist post, since it applies a negative stereotype to one ethnic group/nation without a single shred of evidence to back it up. On the contrary, this country is far, far superior to any of our European neighbours (and probably most of the world) in terms of welcoming foreigners.

I find this thread interesting; the title is deliberately inflammatory, echoing the "The aul' racism now, is it?" thread on purpose, implying that Old Hippy feels Irish patriotism, taking pride in being Irish, is somehow racism. There really are people who think like that, and they all sit north of the border.

Still, maybe that's reading too much into a title. The actual OP however is a bizarre mystery. Who was pointing out the evils of this mythical discrimination and got tarred as anti-Irish? There's been one link so far, and that poster got banned for trolling, so eh.

Maybe you could clarify with examples what you're trying to say, Old Hippy.

In relation to national identity/character - a nebulous concept to begin with - your use of the word 'superior' makes me decidedly jittery, it automatically infers that there are 'inferior' peoples, or nations of people, simply because they are 'other', and not Irish.
When it comes to integration and/or - in your own words- 'welcoming foreigners', we're only at the starting gate compared to some of the other countries of which you are so dismissive.

I sincerely hope that you're correct in your assessment of the 'superior' Irish, personally I believe that we have the capacity to be as enlightened, or as atavistic, as any of our European neighbours.
It's up to all of us to keep a watching brief, our Irishness in itself will not render us immune to the poison of xenophobia and its concomitant racist ideologies.

Madam_X wrote: »

I'm not sure why you think Old Hippy is being blatantly disagreed with. He has put forward that there are some people who think any badmouthing at all re Ireland is "treacherous" and all that bollix. And he's right. Some folks can't handle even the most justified criticism re Ireland/Irish society.

However, there are times when there is stuff said here putting down Irish people that is unbelievably harsh - and if it weren't (ironically) said by Irish people it would happily be defined as anti Irish. All Airtech meant was it depends what the criticism in question is.

I'm actually not nationalistic/patriotic at all - I just don't agree with any nationality being unfairly condemned as a whole, including my own.

But stuff like we've an unhealthy relationship with alcohol (I know we don't all, but it is still endemic in society), there are terribly parochial mindsets here, atrocious roads, terrible public transport - just constructive criticism IMO.

There are DEFINITELY a few posters who like to say Ireland is a really racist, terrible place for foreigners though. Definitely.

'Airtech' inferred, then extrapolated a 'for example' from something which was never stated in Old Hippy's post.
That was, and is, my point.

Popinjay · 05-02-2013 12:04PM

I can't be arsed searching for examples now, but in my time on boards, I've seen a fair whack of responses along the lines of "If you don't like it then fuck off".

I'd see that as the highest example of this shitty faux-patriotism to be honest.

To take an example that should ring true to a lot of these 'patriots':

Should Emmet, Tone, Collins or any of the others just have fucked of since they didn't like the present situation, or should they have done what they did and actively tried to change it?

A true patriot should always be prepared to challenge and change what he loves, lest he lose it forever.

And if that isn't a quote I don't remember reading, it bloody well should be.

Ush1 · 05-02-2013 12:10PM

While it's good to point out injustices, in the global scheme of discrimination and racism Ireland is far from the worst, even in just the western world.

Popinjay · 05-02-2013 12:43PM

Ush1 wrote: »

While it's good to point out injustices, in the global scheme of discrimination and racism Ireland is far from the worst, even in just the western world.

Well as long as somebody is worse than us then it's ok.

I've never understood that attitude.

If people genuinely care about their country, they should consistently try to improve it. Not just accept that the kurdmenistanis have slightly worse attitudes to inter-gender gardening, so all is hunky-dory.

Rasheed · 05-02-2013 12:50PM

Popinjay wrote: »

I can't be arsed searching for examples now, but in my time on boards, I've seen a fair whack of responses along the lines of "If you don't like it then f[SIZE="2"]u[/SIZE]ck off".

I'd see that as the highest example of this sh[SIZE="2"]i[/SIZE]tty faux-patriotism to be honest.

To take an example that should ring true to a lot of these 'patriots':

Should Emmet, Tone, Collins or any of the others just have f[SIZE="2"]u[/SIZE]cked of since they didn't like the present situation, or should they have done what they did and actively tried to change it?

A true patriot should always be prepared to challenge and change what he loves, lest he lose it forever.

And if that isn't a quote I don't remember reading, it bloody well should be.

Well what would you advise someone to do if they 'hated' the country and having to live here?

If they had a problem with the weather, the government, the people, the customs etc?

Every week, there is a thread about how 'shîte' the entire country is, how we all just lie back and take it up the arse from the government, we're useless compared to x,y and z when it comes to a, b and c.

Some thing you can change, some things you can't. If unchangable things such as weather and the type of people bothers you in a country, surely the best thing for your mental and physical health is to leave.

Ush1 · 05-02-2013 12:57PM

Popinjay wrote: »

Well as long as somebody is worse than us then it's ok.

I've never understood that attitude.

If people genuinely care about their country, they should consistently try to improve it. Not just accept that the kurdmenistanis have slightly worse attitudes to inter-gender gardening, so all is hunky-dory.

.

Ush1 wrote: »

While it's good to point out injustices

Popinjay · 05-02-2013 01:04PM

Rasheed wrote: »

Well what would you advise someone to do if they 'hated' the country and having to live here?

If unchangable things such as weather and the type of people bothers you in a country, surely the best thing for your mental and physical health is to leave.

I left in 2009, so I'm hardly one to talk. That said, I left a job that I'd still have had, and all of my friends and family, to follow a girl. So I didn't leave because I 'hated' anything. Quite the opposite.

Still, I hated some things about Ireland and still do. Just like I hate some things about where I am now.

Weather-wise; It is the inalienable right of every individual in the world to complain about their local weather. If that really gets somebody's back up (to the point that they think the person should piss of to some other part of the world - as if complaining about the weather is a direct attack on the morals, values and social structure of a country), I suggest they speak doctor about some form of medication, or possibly a lobotomy, because the problem is with them, not every other person in the world.

The type of people: This generally refers to general social attiudes to things (unless you're talking about people complaining about the every-day arseholes we all encounter. In this case, I more strongly recommend medication for anybody who takes this as anything more than venting petty frustrations). We should complain about social attitudes to things, such as treatment of travellers, equality for all sexualities, genders and skin colours, proper financial regulation (including self-regulation by the individual), etc, etc, etc.

If we don't complain about things, how do you suggest we seek change?

Popinjay · 05-02-2013 01:07PM

Ush1 wrote: »

.

Then what in the name of all that is good and holy was your point about Ireland being 'far from the worst'?

We should be aiming to be, at the very least, close to the best.

Given some attitudes and laws in other countries, 'far from the worst' may as well be damning the nation with faint praise/

Pol Pot was far from the worst (Hipster-godwin, Adolf is too mainstream).

old hippy · 05-02-2013 01:12PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Your belief doesn't amount to a hill of shite.

Actually, the majority of Irish folk believe pretty much that one self appointed bunch of paramilitaries are as bad as the other.

Ush1 · 05-02-2013 01:18PM

Popinjay wrote: »

Then what in the name of all that is good and holy was your point about Ireland being 'far from the worst'?

The point was a statement of fact aimed at people with feigning outrage as if Ireland is Israel, or even France with regards discrimination problems.

Popinjay wrote: »

We should be aiming to be, at the very least, close to the best.

That's a nice ideal which I concur with however in reality it may not be always top of the agenda.

Popinjay wrote: »

Given some attitudes and laws in other countries, 'far from the worst' may as well be damning the nation with faint praise/

Faint praise it may be but it's the truth.

Popinjay wrote: »

Pol Pot was far from the worst (Hipster-godwin, Adolf is too mainstream).

See, comparing Ireland and Pol Pot is kind of what I was getting at.

Popinjay · 05-02-2013 01:33PM

Ush1 wrote: »

Whole post

I know that perfection might be impossible, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be a goal.

I love my fiancee and she loves me, we both push each other much harder than we push ourselves, because we care.

There's nothing like a first person view to promote apathy and excuses, what's wrong with someone pointing this out?

Ush1 · 05-02-2013 01:39PM

Popinjay wrote: »

I know that perfection might be impossible, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be a goal.

I love my fiancee and she loves me, we both push each other much harder than we push ourselves, because we care.

There's nothing like a first person view to promote apathy and excuses, what's wrong with someone pointing this out?

I'm just being realistic, it's good to point out things yes but people in Ireland aren't being blasted with civil rights hoses or publicly stoned to death or beaten to death by police and those cops getting off scot free.

If you were to use Irelands discrimination problems as a stick to beat the country with well then very, very few countries will live up to your standard. Probably none at all.

Popinjay · 05-02-2013 01:57PM

Ush1 wrote: »

very few countries will live up to your standard. Probably none at all.

None will. But because I love a place, I reserve the right to try to make it conform to Utopian standards. I wouldn't try if I didn't love it.

It's like parents with children.

You can always tell who doesn't give a **** about their little bastards, and they're never the ones who don't have rules and ideals for their kids to try to live up to.

It doesn't mean they hate their kids if they're not perfect.

I know my parents never hated me, no matter what stupid shit I got up to. They still tried to make me behave better and I was 'far from the worst' kid out there. I only knifed the one guy.

Rasheed · 05-02-2013 07:05PM

Popinjay wrote: »

I left in 2009, so I'm hardly one to talk. That said, I left a job that I'd still have had, and all of my friends and family, to follow a girl. So I didn't leave because I 'hated' anything. Quite the opposite.

Still, I hated some things about Ireland and still do. Just like I hate some things about where I am now.

Weather-wise; It is the inalienable right of every individual in the world to complain about their local weather. If that really gets your back up, I suggest speaking to your doctor about some form of medication, or possibly a lobotomy, because the problem is with you, not every other person in the world.

The type of people: This generally refers to general social attiudes to things (unless you're talking about people complaining about the every-day arseholes we all encounter. In this case, I more strongly recommend medication for you). We should complain about social attitudes to things, such as treatment of travellers, equality for all sexualities, genders and skin colours, proper financial regulation (including self-regulation by the individual), etc, etc, etc.

If we don't complain about things, how do you suggest we seek change?

You're not understanding my point. You said that the 'leave if you don't like it' mentality is a sign of patriotism, I completely disagree.

If a person came up to me and said they despised a certain place, citing different anecdotal reasons, I would tell them to leave for their physical, mental and emotional health. The place doesn't necessarily have to be my country.

No place is perfect and we should strive to have social issues and people's over all mentality to certain issues as fair as possible. I myself, see every day, at work and in society in general, how social stigma and some attitudes are horrendous here, but it's changing slowly.

First time I've ever heard the advise to 'see a doctor for medication' or 'a lobotomy' performed if I have a problem with people complaining. Not a very nice thing to suggest.

Chinasea · 05-02-2013 07:25PM

Madam_X wrote: »

I
There are DEFINITELY a few posters who like to say Ireland is a really racist, terrible place for foreigners though. Definitely.

There are also posters that will post 'these' statements, moreover backed up with evidential based links outlining such claims, that are still nonetheless instantly disregarded, questioned and labelled as just being 'anti Irish' by possibly some uber patriotic counter posters. IMO.

Chinasea · 05-02-2013 07:33PM

Originally Posted by Ush1
"While it's good to point out injustices, in the global scheme of discrimination and racism Ireland is far from the worst, even in just the western world."

Popinjay wrote: »

Well as long as somebody is worse than us then it's ok.

If people genuinely care about their country, they should consistently try to improve it. y.

Totally agree with this and to quote:

“Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.”

—Martin Luther King Jr.

Madam_X · 05-02-2013 10:13PM

Popinjay wrote: »

I can't be arsed searching for examples now, but in my time on boards, I've seen a fair whack of responses along the lines of "If you don't like it then fuck off".

I've never seen anyone reasonable throw that at someone for making perfectly valid criticisms of Ireland, which should be welcomed.
It's only said in exasperation when people go on about this country as if it is a dreadful place to live and absolutely no suggestion by them on how to improve things, because the reality is: life probably isn't that terrible for them. They're not challenging or questioning or trying to improve things, they're just whinging.
It's pretty lazy to spew hatred about the country you're living in when there is the option to leave. To me it is just a sensible suggestion. Nothing to do with patriotism.

Popinjay wrote: »

Well as long as somebody is worse than us then it's ok.

I've never understood that attitude.

Where that attitude is not unreasonable is when someone is talking about Ireland as if it's as bad as Haiti (and doing an awful injustice to the people in Haiti who are suffering in a way most of us here can barely comprehend). Constructive criticism of Ireland though, shouldn't be met with "Well it's not as bad as x country."

Popinjay wrote: »

Weather-wise; It is the inalienable right of every individual in the world to complain about their local weather. If that really gets your back up, I suggest speaking to your doctor about some form of medication, or possibly a lobotomy, because the problem is with you, not every other person in the world.

Did Rasheed say anything about actually taking issue with people complaining about Irish weather? All I read was that she was putting it out there as an example of something we cannot change, so maybe if it's really getting a person down, they should consider moving to a country with a nicer climate? Wouldn't blame them in some ways tbh.

The type of people: This generally refers to general social attiudes to things (unless you're talking about people complaining about the every-day arseholes we all encounter. In this case, I more strongly recommend medication for you).

Really not necessary to be pretending Rasheed might be implying that, in order to throw out such a dig.

Chinasea, there is nothing wrong with saying there are racist attitudes in Ireland - of course there are some racists unfortunately. Pretending there's an unofficial apartheid going on here though is of no help to anyone. It doesn't have to be either one (patriotic) or the other (seeing injustice everywhere, even to the point of making it up/assuming and wanting it to be the case when it isn't). Each position is too extreme - surely a middle ground would yield the most constructive outcome?

Chuck Stone · 05-02-2013 10:45PM

old hippy wrote: »

Actually, the majority of Irish folk believe pretty much that one self appointed bunch of paramilitaries are as bad as the other.

I'd hazard a guess the majority of Irish folk also believe that there is an omnipotent entity in charge of the Universe. A majority opinion does not constitute empirical evidence.

LincolnsBeard · 05-02-2013 10:47PM

We love you Ireland.

Airitech · 05-02-2013 11:05PM

9959 wrote: »

Does the above quote refer to the common interest of all, regardless of boundaries, or is that 'common interest' restricted to those with whom we share a piece of land?

"Patriotism is a superstition artificially created and maintained through a network of lies and falsehoods; a superstition that robs man of his self-respect and dignity, and increases his arrogance and conceit" - Emma Goldman

Correct me If I'm wrong, but was it not the late Brian Lenihen who, after delivering a extremely harsh austerity budget speech, told the house that it was their 'patriotic duty' to support it.

In relation to national identity/character - a nebulous concept to begin with - your use of the word 'superior' makes me decidedly jittery, it automatically infers that there are 'inferior' peoples, or nations of people, simply because they are 'other', and not Irish.
When it comes to integration and/or - in your own words- 'welcoming foreigners', we're only at the starting gate compared to some of the other countries of which you are so dismissive.

I sincerely hope that you're correct in your assessment of the 'superior' Irish, personally I believe that we have the capacity to be as enlightened, or as atavistic, as any of our European neighbours.
It's up to all of us to keep a watching brief, our Irishness in itself will not render us immune to the poison of xenophobia and its concomitant racist ideologies.

'Airtech' inferred, then extrapolated a 'for example' from something which was never stated in Old Hippy's post.
That was, and is, my point.

I said it depended on the context whether people are justified in taking offence. I gave an example of what I believe isn't a valid complaint to illustrate that. It didn't infer anything from old hippys post. I could have given any number of examples but that was one I have seen here recently.

I gave another example further on in the thread of what I think is a valid complaint. (A poster was asked if their parents were Irish because they disagreed with someone else's point)

Popinjay · 06-02-2013 12:07AM

Rasheed wrote: »

You're not understanding my point. You said that the 'leave if you don't like it' mentality is a sign of patriotism, I completely disagree.

I said it's a sign of 'shitty faux-patriotism to be honest.'

If a person came up to me and said they despised a certain place, citing different anecdotal reasons, I would tell them to leave for their physical, mental and emotional health.

Despised a certain place, yes, I'll agree with you. But just because sombody doesn't like certain aspects of where they happen to be is no reason for them to have to leave. Nowhere is perfect, as we've all agreed and it's a matter of swings and roundabouts everywhere around the world.

No place is perfect and we should strive to have social issues and people's over all mentality to certain issues as fair as possible. I myself, see every day, at work and in society in general, how social stigma and some attitudes are horrendous here, but it's changing slowly.

Agreed. But I have often seen, here and IRL, people say things like 'It's a Catholic country, if you don't like it, **** off' with regard to the gay marriage issue to name just one. That's hardly constructive for anybody, is it? That is the shitty faux-patriotism with which I take issue. Not people defending wherever they like from unfounded, or particularly venemous criticism.

First time I've ever heard the advise to 'see a doctor for medication' or 'a lobotomy' performed if I have a problem with people complaining. Not a very nice thing to suggest.

Apologies. On re-reading my post, it does give the impression that I sepcifically meant you as in you. 'One' would have been a better choice of word. I don't for a second think you're in the camp of people my original post was directed against.

The aul' patriotism now, is it?

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