The aul' patriotism now, is it?

old hippy · 31-01-2013 01:22PM #1

Recently, it's been noticed that when people hilight discrimination in Ireland and such other ills, they are somehow tarnishing the country. The country that is loved by patriots - implying that somehow, to point out negative things is by nature, unpatriotic or un-Irish.

How can someone be tarnishing Ireland by pointing out the evils of discrimination? Surely it's those who practice discrimination who bring the country into disrepute.

Surely hilighting faults and questioning them is a good thing.

Death and Taxes · 31-01-2013 01:30PM

old hippy wrote: »

Recently, it's been noticed that when people hilight discrimination in Ireland and such other ills, they are somehow tarnishing the country. The country that is loved by patriots - implying that somehow, to point out negative things is by nature, unpatriotic or un-Irish.

How can someone be tarnishing Ireland by pointing out the evils of discrimination? Surely it's those who practice discrimination who bring the country into disrepute.

Surely hilighting faults and questioning them is a good thing.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" (Doctor Samuel Johnson).
In this case it is often the only refuge of the bigotted and ill educated.
I myself have been frequently castigated as being "anti Irish" on Boards because of my stance on equality.

Airitech · 31-01-2013 01:31PM

old hippy wrote: »

Recently, it's been noticed that when people hilight discrimination in Ireland and such other ills, they are somehow tarnishing the country. The country that is loved by patriots - implying that somehow, to point out negative things is by nature, unpatriotic or un-Irish.

How can someone be tarnishing Ireland by pointing out the evils of discrimination? Surely it's those who practice discrimination who bring the country into disrepute.

Surely hilighting faults and questioning them is a good thing.

Depends how its put. Pointing out a problem is fair enough, exaggerating the scale of the issue and claiming say, Irish society as a whole is endemically racist will get people's backs up.

Airitech · 31-01-2013 01:32PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" (Doctor Samuel Johnson).
In this case it is often the only refuge of the bigotted and ill educated.
I myself have been frequently castigated as being "anti Irish" on Boards because of my stance on equality.

It's also often the refuge of people who genuinely love their country and culture.

old hippy · 31-01-2013 01:37PM

Airitech wrote: »

It's also often the refuge of people who genuinely love their country and culture.

I've heard that phrase many times over the years. I still don't understand it; can you explain how someone can "genuinely" love a country? What if someone likes their country but "loves" a country that is not their own? Are they still a patriot? Or a traitor? Or a slut?

squod · 31-01-2013 01:41PM

old hippy wrote: »

I've heard that phrase many times over the years. I still don't understand it; can you explain how someone can "genuinely" love a country?

The same way as you can love anything.

summerskin · 31-01-2013 01:41PM

old hippy wrote: »

I've heard that phrase many times over the years. I still don't understand it; can you explain how someone can "genuinely" love a country? What if someone likes their country but "loves" a country that is not their own? Are they still a patriot? Or a traitor? Or a slut?

I'm British, for example. I like Britain, but don't love it. I've lived in various countries, and the one I "love" is France. I had the best quality of life when i was there, met fantastic people, the culture fits me perfectly and the food and drink is the best in the world(IMO).

Yet, if someone talking to me attacks the UK, I will always defend it due to an underlying patriotism that is inherently there.

nelly17 · 31-01-2013 01:42PM

I think if you cant take constuctive criticisim GTFO and stop hiding under something. To be fair the politicians do enough of a job tarnishing the country without someone who points it out needing to be lambasted.

I'[ll give you a few recent examples

old hippy · 31-01-2013 01:44PM

summerskin wrote: »

I'm British, for example. I like Britain, but don't love it. I've lived in various countries, and the one I "love" is France. I had the best quality of life when i was there, met fantastic people, the culture fits me perfectly and the food and drink is the best in the world(IMO).

Yet, if someone talking to me attacks the UK, I will always defend it due to an underlying patriotism that is inherently there.

I'll hilight good and bad things about Ireland and when I feel someone (here in London) is being unfair about it; I'll defend it.

That said, I still don't get the patriotism lark, or why someone would be "proud". I mean, I'm happy and all that but pride? Nah.

Airitech · 31-01-2013 01:47PM

old hippy wrote: »

I've heard that phrase many times over the years. I still don't understand it; can you explain how someone can "genuinely" love a country? What if someone likes their country but "loves" a country that is not their own? Are they still a patriot? Or a traitor? Or a slut?

You can do whatever you want, there is no obligation to appreciate any country or culture. If you don't understand why people take pride in their own country that's fine but don't be surprised when they defend it.

Hourglass Shrugged · 31-01-2013 01:48PM

Patriotism/nationalism is merely sheep politics, used as another opiate for the masses who blindly submit and reinforce the perceived legitimacy of the state.

Patriotism/nationalism is merely primitive tribalism. I see little difference being patriotism and arguing in your local pub about which soccer team you support.

I see little reason why I should care about someone I don't know living 200 km away who just so happens to have a similar accent as me and shares a similar culture to me. I don't feel as though I should owe that person anything more than any other human being.

old hippy · 31-01-2013 01:48PM

nelly17 wrote: »

I think if you cant take constuctive criticisim GTFO and stop hiding under something. To be fair the politicians do enough of a job tarnishing the country without someone who points it out needing to be lambasted.

Tbf, lying politicians are a global epidemic

but our particular brand (with one or two noteable exceptions) are particulary cringe inducing...

nelly17 · 31-01-2013 01:50PM

True but are these guys not the ones who claim themselves to be steadfast patriots

MaxSteele · 31-01-2013 01:51PM

Sure 99.9 % of us have all referred to this place as a "kip" or "damp sh*thole" at some point when flying away to the Mediterranean.

On a side note: Post 1,000 baby

Pompey Magnus · 31-01-2013 01:51PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" (Doctor Samuel Johnson).

A misrepresentation of Samuel Johnson's true feeling on the subject. The person who provided the quote, James Boswell, explained that the context in which Johnson was referring to was only false patriotism.

A more representative quotation of Samuel Johnson's view of patriotism would be:

"A patriot is he whose public conduct is regulated by one single motive, the love of his country; who, as an agent in parliament, has, for himself, neither hope nor fear, neither kindness nor resentment, but refers every thing to the common interest."

crockholm · 31-01-2013 01:52PM

old hippy wrote: »

I'll hilight good and bad things about Ireland and when I feel someone (here in London) is being unfair about it; I'll defend it.

That said, I still don't get the patriotism lark, or why someone would be "proud". I mean, I'm happy and all that but pride? Nah.

If you don't have it,you don't have it. It makes you no less of an Irishman than me,and I love my country, I love coming back and talking to the people,driving the roads,eating the food and just living my life here. I really am at my happiest when I am in Ireland

old hippy · 31-01-2013 01:53PM

Airitech wrote: »

You can do whatever you want, there is no obligation to appreciate any country or culture. If you don't understand why people take pride in their own country that's fine but don't be surprised when they defend it.

But is shouting down those who hilight discrimination and paint them as anti-Irish "defending" your country?

Is that the correct response from people who "genuinely love their country and culture"?

The Idyl Race · 31-01-2013 02:01PM

old hippy wrote: »

But is shouting down those who hilight discrimination and paint them as anti-Irish "defending" your country?

Is that the correct response from people who "genuinely love their country and culture"?

I've been accused elsewhere of being "Anti-irish" and bizarrely "self-hating" when I express my belief that the IRA during the troubles were every bit as much a murder gang as the loyalists. Frankly that sort of patriotism can be kept for the goons chanting "ooh ah up the 'Ra" at Wolfe Tones gigs.

old hippy · 31-01-2013 02:02PM

crockholm wrote: »

If you don't have it,you don't have it. It makes you no less of an Irishman than me,and I love my country, I love coming back and talking to the people,driving the roads,eating the food and just living my life here. I really am at my happiest when I am in Ireland

That's great. I lived most of my life in Ireland and there were times I couldn't wait to escape. But there were also times that I loved experiencing. The moments that are now lost forever. When I visit (it never feels like "returning") I like to catch up with family and friends and see places that I don't normally see. And, as the wife loves to mention repeatedly, there always seems to be a bit of grit in my eye when the plane touches down in Dublin or Cork

I may not be in love with the place but I'm full of sentiment...

old hippy · 31-01-2013 02:09PM

The Idyl Race wrote: »

I've been accused elsewhere of being "Anti-irish" and bizarrely "self-hating" when I express my belief that the IRA during the troubles were every bit as much a murder gang as the loyalists. Frankly that sort of patriotism can be kept for the goons chanting "ooh ah up the 'Ra" at Wolfe Tones gigs.

Ah yes, the uber patriots. I've had one or two run ins with them myself

Airitech · 31-01-2013 02:23PM

old hippy wrote: »

But is shouting down those who hilight discrimination and paint them as anti-Irish "defending" your country?

Is that the correct response from people who "genuinely love their country and culture"?

Depends on the context. If its a legitimate complaint then its serves no purpose hiding behind patriotism. On the other hand if it isn't people can rightly take offence.

No one would stand for me insulting or generalising about other groups. I won't stand for it either.

So context really decides it as far as I'm concerned.

K-9 · 31-01-2013 11:39PM

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

A misrepresentation of Samuel Johnson's true feeling on the subject. The person who provided the quote, James Boswell, explained that the context in which Johnson was referring to was only false patriotism.

A more representative quotation of Samuel Johnson's view of patriotism would be:

"A patriot is he whose public conduct is regulated by one single motive, the love of his country; who, as an agent in parliament, has, for himself, neither hope nor fear, neither kindness nor resentment, but refers every thing to the common interest."

Going back over the last 30 years or so I don't think there are many big political figures you could say that about, Garret probably, John Hume, others probably came close but party interests often over took national interests, people like Dick Spring, Adams, McGuinness and others I'd put down as their heart was in the right place but party interest sometimes superceded the national interest. Garret abd Hume would have their critics but I think they genuinely did what they thought was right for the country first, party second.

Alan Dukes is probably the best example, put party electoral interests very much second and paid for it politically. Shame FG are the complete opposite to then.

Airitech · 01-02-2013 03:02PM

Airitech wrote: »

Depends on the context. If its a legitimate complaint then its serves no purpose hiding behind patriotism. On the other hand if it isn't people can rightly take offence.

No one would stand for me insulting or generalising about other groups. I won't stand for it either.

So context really decides it as far as I'm concerned.

Perfect example of misguided "patriotism" on the Rape in Cork thread just now.

One poster questions something they feel is racist/biased and they get questioned on whether their parents and grandparents were Irish and told that they sound like they don't have a drop of Irish blood in them.

There was no reason to bring that into the debate and it wasn't fair on the poster involved. Everyone is entitled to their opinion just as everyone else is entitled to disagree with it. What happened there was just pointless.

I can't quote it all but here is the link:

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056868842?page=9

The Idyl Race · 04-02-2013 09:53AM

Airitech wrote: »

Perfect example of misguided "patriotism" on the Rape in Cork thread just now.

One poster questions something they feel is racist/biased and they get questioned on whether their parents and grandparents were Irish and told that they sound like they don't have a drop of Irish blood in them.

There was no reason to bring that into the debate and it wasn't fair on the poster involved. Everyone is entitled to their opinion just as everyone else is entitled to disagree with it. What happened there was just pointless.

I can't quote it all but here is the link:

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056868842?page=9

Think that sort of comment shows up those who make it to be the vigourous masturbators that they are.

04-02-2013 10:17AM

Airitech wrote: »

Depends how its put. Pointing out a problem is fair enough, exaggerating the scale of the issue and claiming say, Irish society as a whole is endemically racist will get people's backs up.

I've never read a post in which such a claim was made.

Rasheed · 04-02-2013 10:53AM

9959 wrote: »

I've never read a post in which such a claim was made.

I think he was only using that as an example. And I think he has a point.

Saying any group has a specific trait or train of thought is wrong and unfair. To say it about your own, of course you're going to disagree if you feel differently.

Eve_Dublin · 04-02-2013 11:04AM

old hippy wrote: »

But is shouting down those who hilight discrimination and paint them as anti-Irish "defending" your country?

Is that the correct response from people who "genuinely love their country and culture"?

This is not right but AH is full to the gills of posters spouting absolute unsubstantiated nonsense about it being the worst place on the planet. That gets my back up because jesus christ, you really need to get out more if you think it is. The moaning and complaining based on nothing...that´s what gets me.

I love Ireland and despite the fact that it´s a bit idiotic, I like to say I´m from here. It tends to get a good response and makes life a little easier for me. I like visiting Ireland. I liked living there and left only to go to university 8 years ago (but got "stuck" abroad because of love). I liked most of the people and the nights out and the sense of humour. I´m not a RA head by any means. I despise the IRA and Sinn Fein and any ****e talk about a united Ireland without any justification and "just cos the Brits are coonts" nonsense (despite coming from a Republican family) but I have a genuine appreciation for where I´m from. I also love Argentina and Colombia and Italy and would be as patriotic if I was born in any of those countries. I don´t think Ireland is "superior" but it as aspects to it that I appreciate and miss.

Is that patriotism? I feel annoyed that Irish Patriotism has been hijackeed by RA heads to be honest. Patriotism can simply be a love for one's country and with no underlying sinister beliefs. When someone spouts on about what a **** hole it is, I take umberage to that, so I defend it. That´s only extreme cases. There´s plenty wrong with Ireland but that moaning without anything real to back it up gets to me. It´s as bad as any ranting about great the IRA are and how the Brits are bstards. I´ll listen to any arguement once it´s backed up with proof and a rational, calm argument.

04-02-2013 11:28AM

Airitech wrote: »

Depends how its put. Pointing out a problem is fair enough, exaggerating the scale of the issue and claiming say, Irish society as a whole is endemically racist will get people's backs up.

9959 wrote: »

I've never read a post in which such a claim was made.

Rasheed wrote: »

I think he was only using that as an example. And I think he has a point.

Saying any group has a specific trait or train of thought is wrong and unfair. To say it about your own, of course you're going to disagree if you feel differently.

It's an example alright, an example of a 'Straw Man'.

Madam_X · 04-02-2013 12:18PM

9959 wrote: »

I've never read a post in which such a claim was made.

I certainly have. There's a few posters who just love to go on about how racist and backwards and ignorant "we" are. Don't know how you haven't seen it.

old hippy · 04-02-2013 01:31PM

Madam_X wrote: »

I certainly have. There's a few posters who just love to go on about how racist and backwards and ignorant "we" are. Don't know how you haven't seen it.

Yes, there are sweeping generalisations all round. In general

Ignorance is a global thing, though. One of the most pleasing and wonderful things, I've found, is talking to people far removed from where you started out and finding them very well informed on Ireland

04-02-2013 01:36PM

old hippy wrote: »

Recently, it's been noticed that when people hilight discrimination in Ireland and such other ills, they are somehow tarnishing the country. The country that is loved by patriots - implying that somehow, to point out negative things is by nature, unpatriotic or un-Irish.

How can someone be tarnishing Ireland by pointing out the evils of discrimination? Surely it's those who practice discrimination who bring the country into disrepute.

Surely hilighting faults and questioning them is a good thing.

Airitech wrote: »

Depends how its put. Pointing out a problem is fair enough, exaggerating the scale of the issue and claiming say, Irish society as a whole is endemically racist will get people's backs up.

9959 wrote: »

I've never read a post in which such a claim was made.

Madam_X wrote: »

I certainly have. There's a few posters who just love to go on about how racist and backwards and ignorant "we" are. Don't know how you haven't seen it.

'Airtech' was directly responding to the opening post by 'Old Hippy', in which no such exaggerated claims of endemic racism were made.

Show me the post(s) where accusations of Ireland, or the Irish, being 'endemically racist' were made, and I too will disagree with that particular opinion.
In the meantime I'll take Old Hippy's post as read, in which no disparaging remarks were levelled against Ireland or Irish people in general.
Admittedly I tend to agree with 'Old Hippy' on most issues - he's the only Hippy I've ever liked- but I honestly believe that he makes a very valid, thought-provoking point in his opening remarks.

The aul' patriotism now, is it?

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