Athiest Parents and Catholic/Protestant Schools

Kiwi in IE

Religion certainly didn't annoy me in any way, shape or form until I moved here. I thought it was a bit mad, but maintained an 'each to their own' attitude. The thing is here it is not 'each to their own', and in response I have become very intolerant of it.

Hotblack Desiato

Yeah kind of the same with me, I would have regarded the RCC before as something to ignore having walked away from it in my teens, now that I'm a parent of a schoolgoing child it's something to oppose

Disgusted about many things in the RCC but their statements about 'respecting parents' wishes' etc. about education, while fighting a rearguard action against any change at all is yet another one.

Daughter started in the local CoI school last Sept. It's quite small, junior/senior infants double up in the one class, as do 1st/2nd class etc. My daughter's teacher is excellent (she's actually the principal) , daughter loves school and was actually worried on Monday that school might be closed because of the snow! (Kids these days, wtf?!? :pac: )

I don't have figures but I strongly suspect there are more kids from RCC families in the school than CoI. There are a few kids from other religions too.

They have a prayer service every Friday. Haven't looked into opting out of that, doubt alternative supervision is available and don't want daughter to feel excluded. There is RE but all schools in Ireland have to teach this. So far seems to be colouring in pictures in a workbook with 'thank you God for the flowers' etc. at the bottom of the page. Could do without that sort of thing but it's hardly going to turn her into a wannabe vicar or anything.

Incidentally both my wife and myself were brought up RCC but really didn't want to put our kids in an RCC school if possible. There are 3 large RCC schools nearby, no prospect it seems of one of them becoming an ET or something but there is definitely demand for an alternative in the area. We're not being surveyed here, as a mature area it seems that nothing can change as no new schools are going to be built here.

We're hoping to get our toddler into the CoI school in a couple of years so yeah it's the best option open to us (but we'd prefer an ET)

Hotblack Desiato

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2013/0201/breaking37.html

The reluctance of some Catholic groups to accept the proposed changes in school patronage has been criticised by the Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin.

Dr Martin pointed to the hesitation among some parts of the Catholic education system to let go.

His comments come as polling continues in 38 areas across the State where parents have been asked to select their preferred choice of school patron.

Dr Martin made his remarks yesterday in the course of a homily reflecting on Catholic Schools Week at the Church of Our Lady’s Nativity, Leixlip, Co Kildare.

"It might seem to some a paradox if I say that Catholic education will only survive in the Ireland of the future in the robust presence of other forms of education," he said.

"We have been speaking about a greater pluralism in patronage but I sometimes feel that there exists within parts of our Catholic education system a hesitation to let go or to feeling that somehow Catholic patronage can provide within its own structures the necessary pluralism required in society."

Interesting. Of course I expect nothing at all to happen as a result, but interesting nonetheless.

Hilarious comment on the IT article:

NoelHealy wrote:

In 1961 - 1965 The blessed Virgin gave messages concerning apostasy in The Roman Catholic Church in Garabandal Spain, I suppose this is the manifestation of messages by Our Lady. When you have an Arch bishop siding with a Socialist aiding and abetting the downgrading of Our beloved Roman Catholic Church. Is it any wonder that tears of blood shed from Our Blessed Lady's statutes. What has Arch Bishop Martin to say about Abortion.
Ireland has become a sinful dirty country.

Yeah and we're lovin' it :pac:

Kiwi in IE

I am back on this old Chestnut.

Had decided Little Kiwi is going to COI school in September due to less religious focus.

Had his Montessori graduation last night and his birthday party today. His teacher has said to parents several times that she has never had a class who are as close in her teaching career. I watched them today at his party and they look out for one another, walk about holding hands with each other, and are generally the sweetest, most lovely little children. My son adores every one of his classmates. All are from families I would trust enough to allow him to go on playdates etc.

Six of the twelve in his class are going to the local Catholic school. The other six including him will be scattered around other schools. He is the only one going to the COI school. There are only six junior infants starting in the COI. What if there is no child he really clicks with out of the other five, when I know for a fact there are six children in the Catholic school who would be in his class and who he has already formed friendships with. I am about to change my mind again and send him to the Catholic school I think. Go for the opt out of communion/confirmation option.

My head is done in with choosing a school for this kid! He is clever/cynical child. His grandmother is devoutly Catholic and told him that animals don't go to heaven. He was asking me about it and pointed out that this dosn't make sense as people are animals. Maybe I don't need to fear indoctrination as much as I do?

I am happy with the COI decision on the religion issue, but am I right to be depriving him of continuing on in school with children who he has formed a real bond, because of my views on religion? I suspect the answer is no, less than a week before the schools close for the summer.

nagirrac

Respectfully kiwi I think the main thing to keep in mind is that its your kid who will go through the school experience. At such a young age it is hard to expect a well thought out answer, but you might think about gently asking him his opinion. Given the choice of going to a school with 6 close friends relative to a small school environment where he knows nobody, he might actually have a strong view on this. As others have pointed out the religious element might be irrelevant, for all you know he might turn out to embrace religion and if he does then you can look forward to lots of interesting dinnertime conversations:). I fully realize the challenge in Ireland with regard to the religious element in schools, but I also think it gets overstated somewhat. In this day and age kids are exposed to almost every idea imaginable, as parents we just have to try and provide the most balanced guidance we can.

Every individual child develops differently depending on their personality and environment. I have a daughter who attended a secular public school from kindergarten to middle school (13) and is now in a private Catholic school (her choice). We have very interesting dinnertime conversations, and they get heated at times, but I am very proud of her as she doesn't follow the crowd when almost all of her friends have no interest at all in religion. There is zero possibility I would have predicted this outcome up to very recently, but looking back I realize it was my bias in thinking my child would turn out to have similar views to myself.

lazygal

Kiwi, at that age I really wouldn't worry about 'friends'. Children tend to be very flexible and they'll only have that bond because they happen to be in the same class rather than because of really deep bonds of friendship. Even older children don't remain friends just because they go to the same school, and often branch out. I remember keeping very few friends from the transition from primary to secondary because I realised the only thing we had in common was being in the same class rather than having a proper friendship. Same with secondary school, my closest friends, apart from one, are those I went to college with, once school was over people drifted.

Also, in larger schools there can be two or more of the same class, so close 'friends' from preschool/montessori can be in different classes anyway, which for a small child is akin to being in a different school. I don't think you're 'depriving' your child of friends, they'll learn to adapt, the same way they dealt with starting preschool without knowing a lot of the other pupils.

Obliq

Good points all round there Kiwi. If your kid goes to a school where he knows no one - give it a week, they'll be thick as thieves. 6 is quite a big number for a class in my local school, and they all get on great. However, how far away is the school? Are there others of your son's age living very nearby who are going to the Catholic school? Will he be left out of the local kid's games (when old enough to call in to friends on his own...) because they won't be hanging around with him in school? All these questions were in my head before I made the decision to send mine to the catholic school - but it was a nobrainer for me as the only school within a 40min drive that wasn't Catholic, was Steiner.

If you can't decide, the most obvious thing to do (IMO) is go and talk openly with the head of the catholic school. Ask what way it would go in class for your son. Ask about the extent of the emphasis on religious beliefs during the school day, or is it only taught during religion class? See whether there's virgin marys hanging in every class and bible quotes on the junior infants walls - see what the school ethos is like - it might make your mind up for you. Or did you do all that? Can't remember...

Bannasidhe

I couldn't get my fella into the COI school with all of his friends (who were ironically all Catholics) as it was full...of Catholics... so I had no choice but to send him to the local 'Catholic' NS where he knew not one person when he started.
He did go to secondary school with one of the Catholics who was the reason I tried to get him into the COI school in the first place.
Fast forward and these two grown men are nearly 30 and still absolutely best mates (think JD and Turk in Scrubs').

I can see where you are coming from Kiwi but to be honest, if I had had a chance to get him into a non-Catholic school I would have jumped at it. Even though son didn't participate in religion he still managed to soak up some distinctly Catholic BS as it was all around him and he did, at times, feel excluded from the wider school community plus far too much 'homework' time was spent discussing the latest bit of Catholic BS and not doing his actual homework.

Kiwi in IE

I asked Little Kiwi last evening. I had been keeping it from him that most of his class are going to a different school but I told him who was going and he now desperately wants to go there. They all live around here (walking/biking distance for later), where the COI school has a really large catchment area. They will all be in the same class as there is a combined junior and senior infants class (same in the COI). Most people are telling me not to worry about friends but I have a gut feeling that for my kid this is important.

I have been around all the schools. There are three which are equal distance (about 3 km). The 2 Catholic ones do have the open heart surgery/Mary statue bullsh*t. I am actually really stuck on this and can't settle to any decision.

Bannasidhe

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I asked Little Kiwi last evening. I had been keeping it from him that most of his class are going to a different school but I told him who was going and he now desperately wants to go there. They all live around here (walking/biking distance for later), where the COI school has a really large catchment area. They will all be in the same class as there is a combined junior and senior infants class (same in the COI). Most people are telling me not to worry about friends but I have a gut feeling that for my kid this is important.

I have been around all the schools. There are three which are equal distance (about 3 km). The 2 Catholic ones do have the open heart surgery/Mary statue bullsh*t. I am actually really stuck on this and can't settle to any decision.

Go with your gut.

No matter what you do there will be pros and cons but as long as you know what the pros and cons are you are forewarned.

recedite

Its a real shame that kids are segregated by the actions of religious organisations at such an early age, and their parents pushed into such a dilemma.
Anyway whatever the outcome, you can rest assured that the rest of society is much more mixed now than it was a few decades ago. The kids of the same age from the various schools will keep bumping into each other at sports and other recreational activities.

Obliq

recedite wrote: »

Its a real shame that kids are segregated by the actions of religious organisations at such an early age, and their parents pushed into such a dilemma.
Anyway whatever the outcome, you can rest assured that the rest of society is much more mixed now than it was a few decades ago. The kids of the same age from the various schools will keep bumping into each other at sports and other recreational activities.

Yeah, but if you're in a small town they can be quite cliquey and it can be really important in an area where there aren't that many kids their age within reach, that arrangements to meet at weekends or go home after school with someone for an hour happen at school. I get the youngest arriving up to the car at 3.00 with another lad in tow, asking can they visit, and their parents are only living the other side of the village. If I'd sent my kids to the Steiner, with their massive catchment area, I could be driving for 1/2 hour each way to get the child afterwards.

All the same, my local NS is fab and probably unusual in that there aren't bleeding hearts and crucifixes everywhere. It's a nice small class size so my kids never felt excluded as they were a large percentage of their own class - maybe there would be a different story if they were the only one not participating out of 15 or 18?

Kiwi, I wouldn't like your decision - mine was much more clear cut. If I had it to do again, but the school was full of "god made the clouds" indoctrination, I don't know what I'd do tbh either. But if you feel you can deal with the type of consequences that Bann was highlighting, and that your kids' bs detector skills will develop at home regardless, the community inclusion they'll gain could be worth it. Jaysus, should have just butted out, I'm no help!

clairefontaine

I had no choice but to send my little one to a Catholic school. They didn't seem that crazy but I was still getting more questions about god than I was about simple equations. The rubber stamps on their foreheads at Ash Wednesday was just beyond comical.

So in order not to make his education too confusing, I would just tell him god is not that important, try to keep perspective. It's important that you are kind.

I can't tend crucifixes either. Early fetishising of pain and public execution.

If I had the choice I would have done COI or Steiner.

I used to be pretty tolerant of religion before I lived in Ireland. Now I hate it.

donspeekinglesh

I'd prefer a Catholic school to Steiner ones. At least the Catholics are up front about the crazy.

http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2012/11/what-every-parent-should-know-about-steiner-waldorf-schools.html

Dades

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Six of the twelve in his class are going to the local Catholic school. The other six including him will be scattered around other schools. He is the only one going to the COI school. There are only six junior infants starting in the COI.

Kiwi, what is the reason you are sending him to the COI school? Is it solely because he won't be exposed to religious stuff? Or is it for academic reasons? 6 seems a very small amount in the class.

I've just gone through six months of agonising over schools. In the end, location and my (nominally catholic) wife's wishes have won out, and my daughter will be going to the national school around the corner with the kids she's been in Montessori with and who play with her and our son on our street every night. Both the women in my life are happier for it, and I just need to brush up on my anti-indoctrination tactics. I've taken one for the team basically.

You at least, can opt your son out of RE class, which, to my mind, counts for a lot. So unless there's compelling other reasons the COI school is winning out I'd be tempted to go with the bigger and more familiar option.

robindch

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Most people are telling me not to worry about friends [...]

I had the same choice when my kid was leaving the Montessori school she'd been in for two years, which was either to stay there and graduate into the primary school that was in the same building, or else take up the offer of a place in the Educate Together up the road. In the end, we decided the nature and atmosphere of the school would influence her at least as much, and possibly more, than any friends and friendships she'd acquired earlier on. While possibly seeming heartless to point it out, a lot of early friendships are ephemeral affairs even with the firmest-seeming of friends.

In the end, we're happy we made the right decision. She made new friends within days and, today -- her last day in Senior Infants and about to enter first class; cue the smallest hint of a tear -- she's still running into the school every day with a big silly grin on her face, and that means a lot to mrs robindch, myself and Snowflake of course.

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

I had the same choice when my kid was leaving the Montessori school she'd been in for two years, which was either to stay there and graduate into the primary school that was in the same building, or else take up the offer of a place in the Educate Together up the road. In the end, we decided the nature and atmosphere of the school would influence her at least as much, and possibly more, than any friends and friendships she'd acquired earlier on. While possibly seeming heartless to point it out, a lot of early friendships are ephemeral affairs even with the firmest-seeming of friends.

In the end, we're happy we made the right decision. She made new friends within days and, today -- her last day in Senior Infants and about to enter first class; cue the smallest hint of a tear -- she's still running into the school every day with a big silly grin on her face, and that means a lot to mrs robindch, myself and Snowflake of course.

Contrast that with Hermoine who is also about to enter first class and is already working herself up into a worry that she may have to make her communion and is sick to her back teeth of hearing about babyjebus and holymarymotherofgod to such an extent that she hates going to school and asks to do maths and science when she is with me or her Dad because she isn't getting enough time spent on those subjects (her favourites) at school. :mad:

Hotblack Desiato

Dades wrote: »

Kiwi, what is the reason you are sending him to the COI school? Is it solely because he won't be exposed to religious stuff? Or is it for academic reasons? 6 seems a very small amount in the class.

Presumably they double up (e.g. junior and senior infants together) like in my daughter's school - although the numbers entering each year would be more like 10 or 12 (and increasing.)

Both the women in my life are happier for it, and I just need to brush up on my anti-indoctrination tactics. I've taken one for the team basically.

Does this mean the full treatment - sacraments included?

You at least, can opt your son out of RE class, which, to my mind, counts for a lot. So unless there's compelling other reasons the COI school is winning out I'd be tempted to go with the bigger and more familiar option.

Lower pupil-teacher ratio and less time wasted on mumbo-jumbo can only be good things. You may or may not be able to opt your child out of RE in an RCC school, but if you do they'll be colouring or something, not being taught something useful during that time.

Mr_A

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Thanks for the tips and advice. I have been into several schools around here and talked to teachers/principles, including the Protestant school. All play down the religious aspect as soon as you mention that you are not religious. I am not sure if this is a reflection of reality or just an attempt to sell the school. For example when I was showed around the Protestant school, I was told there is much less focus on religion than in the Catholic schools. To be fair if RCC schools spend 10% of class time on religion, there couldn't be any more anyway!

We get to the point where we think we have made a decision and then panic that it is the wrong one.

Been there. When we were looking at schools for my daughter the local Gael Scoil really played down their level of religiousness to the point you'd think they were only nominally a religious school. Although it's a good school and she loves it there, the representation was far from accurate.

For example, one year at the parent teacher meeting we mentioned that our little one was not being brought up with religion and the teacher clearly hadn't been told this, but dismissively pointed out that they did very little religion apart from bits here and there and prayers every morning, before lunch and before home time.

I don't think they were intentionally dishonest, I just think the perception of the norm is so immersed in RCC stuff that even when the school still spent a lot of time on the stuff they saw themselves as not being that into it.

We may be more relaxed about it now, but at the same time we lucked out in that she had a super cool teacher for 1st communion year. Our little one still felt a little sad and different from time to time, it could have been a lot worse though. Plus we went to Legoland the weekend of the communion which trumped the hell out of the idea of conforming just to go with the flow for her.

Kiwi in IE

Dades wrote: »

Kiwi, what is the reason you are sending him to the COI school?

We are not! I spent all day yesterday enrolling him in local NS where six of his Montessori class, who were crying and hugging each other along with parents and teacher on their last day today, are going.

Thanks so much for your help and advice guys. Would either have gone back to NZ or mad by now of I hadn't found A&A. Little Kiwi's dad and I are both psych nurses so well able to deal with delusion being presented as reality!

The Legoland idea is something we had thought of too Mr A. We were thinking Disneyland for the communion week.

Obliq

Well done on taking a decision! My eldest got a trip to Limerick to see a film, some fast food (which he rarely gets, and hates now - sees it for the rubbish it is) and 20 euros (that he was overwhelmed with - never got "big money" before) off me and a few 5's off of parents who included him when they were handing over the obligatory envelopes at the school gates. Happy as a pig in sh*t. Don't bother going all out, and it was all forgotten within 2 months We didn't make a huge big deal of it, so neither did he.

The youngest couldn't be arsed with any of it, and although he got the cinema/day off/few quids, it all went straight over his head. Totally depends on the child to my mind...

Hotblack Desiato

Best of luck with it Kiwi.

Although there's probably generally less overt emphasis on religion in CoI schools, they're still religious ethos schools. Like RCC schools, a lot depends on the principal, teachers and views of the local priest/vicar and bishop. ET started out because a CoI school in Dalkey got an 'enthusiastic' new principal (from NI I believe...) who placed what the parents felt was an excessive emphasis on religion!

Edit: not sure where I heard the above, it may or may not be correct. The ET site naturally doesn't confirm or deny the above, but does say that the CoI school in question became concerned that its increasing non-protestant enrolment would dilute its ethos, and planned to restrict future entry to protestants only, which is why parents in the area set up the Dalkey School Project.


It needs to be watched in any type of school imho. But schools are going to have to get better at accommodating difference, because this isn't homogenous holy catholic Ireland any more and the number of non-religious and non-christian kids in schools is going to keep on increasing.

Kiwi in IE

Other parents did the same thing. 10 out of the 12 kids from Montessori are in his junior infants class. He had his first morning there today and was delighted with himself. He was so happy and confident and there was no bother when it was time for us to leave. He hardly noticed. I think we made the right decision and will just have to deal with the holymarymotherofgod cr*p as it arises. Which judging by the crucifixes, open heart surgery pictures and lovely statues decorating the place, will be sooner rather than later!

robindch

ninja900 wrote: »

ET started out because a CoI school in Dalkey got an 'enthusiastic' new principal (from NI I believe...) who placed what the parents felt was an excessive emphasis on religion!

Edit: not sure where I heard the above, it may or may not be correct. The ET site naturally doesn't confirm or deny the above, but does say that the CoI school in question became concerned that its increasing non-protestant enrolment would dilute its ethos, and planned to restrict future entry to protestants only, which is why parents in the area set up the Dalkey School Project.

Yes, I believe the DSP was set up by parents who'd run into a spot of bother at a protestant-controlled school in the Dalkey area.

If it's any consolation, I'm one of many people who's trying to convince one of the original parents to document what I suspect is the very interesting early history of the ET movement.

robindch

Gerhard Müller, the guy who's now Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (Ratzinger's old job), has said that the state "has the duty and responsibility" to indoctrinate children.

http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2013/06/government-has-a-duty-to-provide-catholic-education-says-archbishop

Gerhard M&#252 wrote: »

Government has a “duty” to provide Catholic Education, says Archbishop

One of the Vatican's most senior clerics has used a visit to Scotland to reinforce the message that the provision of faith schools by the state is a fundamental right of Catholic families. Archbishop Gerhard Müller, the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, made the statement at during a lecture at Glasgow University last week. He also drew attention to the "voices raised against" Catholic education.

The visit is seen as an indication of the Vatican's interest of the health of the Catholic Church in Scotland, which has been through one of the biggest crises in its history. It also comes just a week after Secular Scotland lodged a petition with the Scottish parliament asking for the law to be changed so that RE and religious observance in state schools are opt-in rather than opt-out.

Archbishop Müller will tell the audience: "For many decades, there have been voices raised against the idea of Catholic education, against the fact of distinct faith schools and increasingly, in today's society, there are great challenges to the very idea of a religious education."

Archbishop Müller accepted there were voices within the Church itself which questioned the need for separate Catholic education. But he added: "The State has the duty and responsibility to facilitate the wishes of Catholic parents to educate their children according to their desire to pass on their faith to their children." Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society, said: "The Cardinal is obviously advocating for his own interests and those of his Church, but although most Human Rights charters guarantee parents the right to raise their children according to their own religion, no charter says that the state has a 'duty' or 'responsibility' to do the job for them or to use taxpayers' money to 'facilitate' it."

kylith

reinforce the message that the provision of faith schools by the state is a fundamental right of Catholic families

Red mists rising....

Dades

"The State has the duty and responsibility to facilitate the wishes of Catholic parents to educate their children according to their desire to pass on their faith to their children."

They say education begins at home. Except when you can farm it out to someone else so you don't miss pilates or golf.

Morag

Imagine the insurance costs if the RC churches were to be used at the weekends or during the week for religious instruction, sure they cant' be having that.

LashingLady

This drives me insane!! There is absolutely nothing stopping the Catholic Church from setting up a nice little cosy sunday school at their churches - it would be a win-win situations:

- parents who want to can go to mass
- If you want your kids to learn about god you can have it while you're at mass
- all the kids can go to school together without segregation, exclusion, difference, stress etc etc

This is the only solution! It accomodates everyone!

Then you have a catholic parent saying "it's my right to give my child a catholic education, you're proposing that is taken away from me!"

WTF?

What is a "catholic education" that you can't give at home and at Sunday school? Is there Catholic Maths? Catholic Irish? Catholic Geography?

WTF?

Is it my right to be able to send my child to school in the community without feeling different? Without having to argue with the teaching they get given "as fact"?

I say thank goodness for ET but really there shoudn't be any need for ET, it should all be Educate Together - we all live together, we're all fecking humans, I hate that kids are segregated as "CAtholic kids" or "atheist kids" - my kids not atheist, he just has atheist parents.....

eyescreamcone

LashingLady wrote: »

This drives me insane!! There is absolutely nothing stopping the Catholic Church from setting up a nice little cosy sunday school at their churches - it would be a win-win situations:

- parents who want to can go to mass
- If you want your kids to learn about god you can have it while you're at mass
- all the kids can go to school together without segregation, exclusion, difference, stress etc etc

This is the only solution! It accomodates everyone!

Then you have a catholic parent saying "it's my right to give my child a catholic education, you're proposing that is taken away from me!"

WTF?

What is a "catholic education" that you can't give at home and at Sunday school? Is there Catholic Maths? Catholic Irish? Catholic Geography?

WTF?

Is it my right to be able to send my child to school in the community without feeling different? Without having to argue with the teaching they get given "as fact"?

I say thank goodness for ET but really there shoudn't be any need for ET, it should all be Educate Together - we all live together, we're all fecking humans, I hate that kids are segregated as "CAtholic kids" or "atheist kids" - my kids not atheist, he just has atheist parents.....

If people want a catholic education for their children, how come they don't insist that third level courses include religious instruction?
3rd level is part of the education system too after all.

UCD Civil Engineering Timetable
9am Structural Mechanics
10am Geotechnical Engineering
11am Thermodynamics
12pm Transubstantiation 101

"Now you're just being silly" - I hear their replies.

"Well you fuppn started it, you muppets" - would be my reply... in this made up conversation.