Athiest Parents and Catholic/Protestant Schools

Kiwi in IE

Guys, I know there is loads of threads on education already, but I'd like your thoughts on whether Protestant Schools are less focused on religion than Catholic? I know they have no Communion in First Class, but I am talking about overall, day to day religious content?

We are in a situation (like many others), where there is no educate together and we must choose between numerous Catholic, or a Protestant School. My gut feeling is that the Protestant one is likely to be slightly more palatable for an athiest family?

My son starts school in September. Enrolments are in February, but we are in NZ for that whole month, so I have to enrol him early. I enrolled him in the local Catholic School today, most of his Montessori class are going there, and we don't have a huge amount of choice, but I have felt sick ever since I took the form back.

There was an option on the enrolment form to sit him out of sex education, but not to sit him out of religion class. The first thing that met me when I entered the building was that horrible open heart surgery picture. They asked for his baptismal certificate to be included with the returned form, meaning I had to explain our position to the secretary. I told her he is no religion and won't be doing communion or confirmation. Unfortunately we did have him baptised. We were on holiday in Ireland prior to moving here, and I were a naive idiot from a secular country who didn't find religion offensive because it wasn't forced on me. It was important to my partners parents and at the time, I naively didn't care if he were baptised or not. However I am not declaring my four tear old as any religion, and am not providing the baptismal certificate.

I'd like the opinion of other athiest parents who are in our position. What are your positive/negative experiences and comparisons between RCC/COI schools in regard to religious content. I wonder if I have done the right thing? Is there little difference anyway? Or would we be likely to find the Protestant school less loopy?

lazygal

I would say it very much depends on the ethos of the school and the overall approach of the patron. There's a very nice, small school near us with a Church of Ireland ethos. There's a prayer service once a week and no option to opt out, unless the parent/guardian can supervise the child, which isn't really practical. From what I've heard, there's less infusion of religion throughout the school day, like time given to prep for sacraments and prayers before lunch, parish priest dropping in, God making the flowers, all the stuff I know happens in the local Catholic school. But I know schools affiliated to the more evangelical protestant faiths would have a lot more religion as part of the school day.

Kiwi in IE

Thanks lazygal. I am really uncertain. It's a lesser of two evils situation in regard to religious content, but I'm not sure if it is worth sending him somewhere different than his friends and further away. If I didn't have those factors to consider as well, the lack of belief in transubstantiation would be a good enough reason alone. I find that one outstandingly ridiculous, beyond even the realms of normal religious ridiculousness!

lazygal

We are incredibly lucky as we have been offered a place in our local ET but the Catholic school was second. Academically its probably superior but we also have to think of our family dynamic. My only consolation should something happen and the wee lass had to go there was that a)I went there, did the alter server/church choir/loved mass thing and am now as atheist as they come and b) she wouldn't be the only odd one out in the class.

What I find most frustrating about religion is not the classes per se. It's the fact that your child might land in with a teacher who's very into 'God made the flower, god wants little children to be good, let's thank god for our lunches' crap and then the time for practicing for communions, nativity plays and all the jazz. That's what annoys me, the god stuff permeates the curriculum, even the standard non religious elements, and its really the luck of the draw how much one's child will be exposed to it.

Kiwi in IE

This is what concerns me too. I have heard that it is completely luck of the draw based on how religious or not the teacher is. From what I've been told, some will just go through the religious part of the curriculum in order to tick the box, and others will allow it to permeate every subject. In a small rural school you have no option to ask for a class change if you are unlucky enough to get a religious fanatic!

Do you have grounds to complain if you feel what they are being taught is totally inappropriate? For example if they were to go on about hell and sin to small children?

Kiwi in IE

Apparently there is very little focus on religion in the COI school where we are. Our neighbours kids go there and they have said it's nothing like 10% of class time, which it reportedly is in RCC schools. I have the family dynamic to consider to some extent also.

Aenaes

Giving my own experience, as I went to a Protestant primary school in the nineties. There wasn't much religious emphasis in the day-to-day classroom.

Obviously, there was no hail Mary thing at the start of every class/lesson (which freaked me out when I went to a Catholic secondary school), also no prayer room, no blessing of the school and no marking yourself on Ash Wednesday. Another thing was the lack of symbolism. In the secondary school there was a statue of Mary and Padre Pio not to mention countless carvings/pictures of Jesus chillin' on the cross. Perhaps take a little walk around the school to see if there are any overt signs like these? It might give you an indication.

There were exceptions of course but the above are kinda the main agents of symbolism that might sweep children up in the pageantry of it all. Easter and Christmas were biggish occasions, making cards/eggs for Easter and there were nativity plays for Christmas. Giving things up for Lent was encouraged. A weekly assembly was held, put together by the different classes, some based on just being/doing good and some based on bible stories. There was some hymn singing in these assemblies too, Kumbaya et cetera.
There was also a few visits from the reverend in 5th and 6th class, I think he came in once a week as part of a religion class. I think this may have been preparation for our confirmation.

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Do you have grounds to complain if you feel what they are being taught is totally inappropriate? For example if they were to go on about hell and sin to small children?

I experienced very little of the hell-fire and damnation approach. Everything seemed to be focused on the "good" things that happened.

I feel like I've rambled on alot there but I hoped I've helped a little.

Peregrinus

It very much depends on the school, and there's no substituted for visiting the school and talking to them about it.

If anything, schools identified with a minority religion tend to be a little more assertive about their identity - it goes with the territory of being a minority. I'm aware of non-believing parents who sent their kid to Jewish schools in the expectation that this would be a more religion-free environment than a Catholic school. This was not a very well-thought-through expectation or, it turned out, an accurate one.

On the other hand, what minority schools should have plenty of experience of is dealing with pupils who don't share the school's religious identity. So they may have thought through better what is involved, and how they need to cater to the needs of those students. So a C of I school might be worth looking at - not because it will be less Christian than a Catholic school, but because it may be better at catering for non-Christian (or at least non-C of I) pupils.

jank

Why was my post deleted, all I said is go with the school that provides the best overall education.

coffee_cake

Peregrinus wrote: »

If anything, schools identified with a minority religion tend to be a little more assertive about their identity - it goes with the territory of being a minority. I'm aware of non-believing parents who sent their kid to Jewish schools in the expectation that this would be a more religion-free environment than a Catholic school. This was not a very well-thought-through expectation or, it turned out, an accurate one.

It was for me. Got off early on fridays instead of wednesdays, that was it

Zillah

There are people that would specifically request that their children not take part in a sex education class. The mind boggles at the small-minded, stubborn brain that leads to that decision.

Ewwwwwww, talking about sex?! But...sex is bad!

Kiwi in IE

Thanks for the tips and advice. I have been into several schools around here and talked to teachers/principles, including the Protestant school. All play down the religious aspect as soon as you mention that you are not religious. I am not sure if this is a reflection of reality or just an attempt to sell the school. For example when I was showed around the Protestant school, I was told there is much less focus on religion than in the Catholic schools. To be fair if RCC schools spend 10% of class time on religion, there couldn't be any more anyway!

We get to the point where we think we have made a decision and then panic that it is the wrong one.

Kiwi in IE

Aenaes wrote: »

Giving my own experience, as I went to a Protestant primary school in the nineties. There wasn't much religious emphasis in the day-to-day classroom.

Obviously, there was no hail Mary thing at the start of every class/lesson (which freaked me out when I went to a Catholic secondary school), also no prayer room, no blessing of the school and no marking yourself on Ash Wednesday. Another thing was the lack of symbolism. In the secondary school there was a statue of Mary and Padre Pio not to mention countless carvings/pictures of Jesus chillin' on the cross. Perhaps take a little walk around the school to see if there are any overt signs like these? It might give you an indication.

There were exceptions of course but the above are kinda the main agents of symbolism that might sweep children up in the pageantry of it all. Easter and Christmas were biggish occasions, making cards/eggs for Easter and there were nativity plays for Christmas. Giving things up for Lent was encouraged. A weekly assembly was held, put together by the different classes, some based on just being/doing good and some based on bible stories. There was some hymn singing in these assemblies too, Kumbaya et cetera.
There was also a few visits from the reverend in 5th and 6th class, I think he came in once a week as part of a religion class. I think this may have been preparation for our confirmation.



I experienced very little of the hell-fire and damnation approach. Everything seemed to be focused on the "good" things that happened.

I feel like I've rambled on alot there but I hoped I've helped a little.

Thank you. It's good to hear from someone with a personal experience of a COI school. There is definitely a huge difference in the levels of symbolism between the schools in this area. Nothing overtly religious in the COI school. As soon as you walk in the main entrance of the local RCC you are met with a hideous, huge picture of open heart surgery and there are crucifixes in every classroom.

robindch

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Nothing overtly religious in the COI school.

That depends on the school you're looking at.

I gather the ET movement arose because a group of parents were unhappy with the hardline religious policies adopted by a new headmaster appointed to a (previously relaxed) COI school in south Dublin.

Dades

jank wrote: »

Why was my post deleted, all I said is go with the school that provides the best overall education.

It was off-topic regarding the OP's specific question, and phrased in a manner likely to turn this into the jank show again.

Nothing to see here everyone move on.

daffy123

Hi Kiwi in IE. All our children went to our local C of I school in South Dublin. I think the main difference between the CofI schools and the RC schools is that religion class is separate and does not permeate the whole day. There are no crucifixes or statues in the school. There was some hymn singing and a few prayers at assembly once a week but the amount of time spent on religion in general was very minimal. The school was actually very mixed with children from many religious backgrounds and this didn't seem to cause any difficulties.

Kiwi in IE

robindch wrote: »

That depends on the school you're looking at.

I gather the ET movement arose because a group of parents were unhappy with the hardline religious policies adopted by a new headmaster appointed to a (previously relaxed) COI school in south Dublin.

It really does sound like it is completely 'luck of the draw' with either denomination. Clearly you can sometimes get lucky with teachers/principles who only teach it because they have to, to tick the boxes, or you can get a nightmare religious fanatic. The RCC one I have enrolled him in is probably no better or worse than any other. The choices we have are far from satisfactory so it is a lose/lose situation.

car.kar

I went to a CoI primary school, and don't particularly recall much religious stuff. There was an assembly once a week where we sang about two hymns, but certainly it didn't effect normal classes like science or english. My school was affiliated with the local CoI church, so any end of year services were held there, yes, but no open heart surgery pictures, no hail mary's, no "thank the lord for our sandwiches".

Having said that though I do agree that it's the luck of the draw - most of our teachers were more focused on actual education, but I did have one nut job in third class that was a fanatic ... eventually too many parents complained about her and she 'took some time off'.

I have friends who went to Catholic primary schools that were surprised I only had assembly once a week - it seems they had it daily, and recited prayers at various points through out the day also.

I personally would say CoI is the lesser of two evils - but it depends if the school is CoI? If its a different branch of Protestantism - Evangelical, for example - it will probably be as religious as a Catholic school would be. The only difference I tend to note between intense Catholicism and intense Protestantism is that Catholicism is more "obey god and fear him", where as the Proddies would be "love god and worship him". So ... probably still the lesser of two evils.

That's just my experience though :-)

eyescreamcone

Someone mentioned to me that COI schools have better facilities than RC schools. Any truth in this?

lazygal

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Someone mentioned to me that COI schools have better facilities than RC schools. Any truth in this?

Not in the ones I know, fewer children can mean less in capital funding and parental ccontributions.

swampgas

Zillah wrote: »

There are people that would specifically request that their children not take part in a sex education class. The mind boggles at the small-minded, stubborn brain that leads to that decision.

Ewwwwwww, talking about sex?! But...sex is bad!

And these are people who managed to have enough sex to procreate. I can't imagine what kind of screwed-up guilt-fest goes on in their heads.

recedite

Aenaes wrote: »

Another thing was the lack of symbolism..................
There was also a few visits from the reverend in 5th and 6th class, I think he came in once a week as part of a religion class. I think this may have been preparation for our confirmation.

Less symbolism is part of the religion, but it does not mean less indoctrination permeating the school day.
The Rev. was probably in the classroom fishing around for likely recruits for his confirmation classes, which would happen outside of school hours, over in the rectory. That is probably one of the biggest differences, ie the fact that you didn't even notice which classmates went to the classes, or how many of them did.

Obliq

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

We are in a situation (like many others), where there is no educate together and we must choose between numerous Catholic, or a Protestant School. My gut feeling is that the Protestant one is likely to be slightly more palatable for an athiest family?

Hiya Kiwi - I'm assuming from this sentence that you are in a fairly rural area where there are many small schools within driving distance. This was my experience (my youngest being set to move on from primary next year), except that there were NO protestant schools at all and one Steiner within a 20 mile radius. There are 3 catholic N.S. schools within a 10 minute drive and most of my son's play-school mates were going to the nearest.

When it came to making a decision at the time, I had met a number of the parents from each of my choices. The Steiner - well....to be honest, it was very clear to me that they were a cliquey bunch (this has since improved) and their children subsequently became cliques in the two local secondary schools (also since improved). So, as I wish my children to be inclusive types, there were 3 N.S. to choose from.

I had got to know a few local parents (had a child quite soon after "blowing in" to the area) and the REAL locals were quite offended by the idea of my sending the child even to the next village, never mind right outside the area. There are many considerations to take on board about where your child goes to school, but I would say NOT LEAST his/her own community. I sent my lads to the local N.S., not through peer pressure, but because their play-school friends were going there. Best decision I ever made, and not at all based on what religion the school is. Now admittedly, there wasn't a sacred heart in sight - or any reference to the CC whatsoever - but I can safely say that in my experience (looking back), religious affiliation was the least of my worries. It is not at all unusual around here that parents move their children from one school to another, if they are not getting on well in the first one.

There may be a school ethos that encourages individuality/personal growth/fun/achievement in one, that is lacking in another, never mind the religion. Small schools will give that opportunity, or take it away. It entirely depends on who is running it (and quite possibly, the involvement of the church, just as much as the board of management/teaching staff/parent's association). In a rural area, it's more pot-luck than anything else, but believe me - the religious indoctrination/lack of, falls WAY behind the school's management of bullying/discipline and it's encouragement of school as a fun/nurturing environment.

I advise you to talk to parents, if you know any, from all the schools. Listen to the gossip. Ask about bullying. Ask about religion/science. Ask about whether there were any other atheists that sent their kids there (I was the 1st in my boy's school! Did them not a bit of harm). Ask is there a Parent's association. Ask if the teachers are approachable (liked by children/kind/able to maintain discipline, etc.) and which ones aren't (this was a MAJOR factor in kids being moved from schools in my area)..........

But bear in mind that it is a lottery, and you will face agonising questions about where your child is best educated THROUGHOUT their schooling - as their personality develops, as they interact with their peers, as they come home spouting crap about "God made the flowers", as they cry on the way to school or say "no one likes me - I'm left out of everything". Religion, and the way it is taught in an individual school is just one weight on the scale - it may be outweighed by other considerations.

Above all, don't beat yourself up if the 1st school you choose doesn't suit you or your child. This happens. School is SO much more about the personalities that run it being compatible with your own, than anything else- especially at primary level. By secondary, you'll be so exhausted that it matters less...... (joke!! - I've an ASD kid set to go to secondary, where his obsessive aversion to homework may ruin our lives. Religion? Couldn't give a flying F***)

Red Pepper

My kid is attending a Catholic school. I learned today that 10 children out of 28 in 2nd class are not doing communion. Sign of the times even though I think several of the 10 have recent immigrant parents. Given time I think the demand from parents and willingness of teachers to perform religious duties will get less and less and schools will adapt.

Kiwi in IE

The fact COI ordain women, don't believe in crying statues, transubstantiation or 'limbo' for unbaptised babies, accept contraception and are overall more liberal in attitude (it'd be hard not to) toward gay people, abortion etc does make it seem the lesser of two evils to me. There are other factors I have to consider though, like family dynamics. If I were only choosing between the two religions and considering nothing else, it would be COI. I posted the OP because I wanted to see if other athiest parents had similar views. I am wondering if I've made a mistake enrolling him in the local RCC if COI is slightly less offensive overall.

This is proving to be an impossible decision causing arguments in my house!

Obliq

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

The fact COI ordain women, don't believe in crying statues, transubstantiation or 'limbo' for unbaptised babies, accept contraception and are overall more liberal in attitude (it'd be hard not to) toward gay people, abortion etc does make it seem the lesser of two evils to me. There are other factors I have to consider though, like family dynamics. If I were only choosing between the two religions and considering nothing else, it would be COI. I posted the OP because I wanted to see if other athiest parents had similar views. I am wondering if I've made a mistake enrolling him in the local RCC if COI is slightly less offensive overall.

This is proving to be an impossible decision causing arguments in my house!

Any chance you could base the decision on something else? Like whether you get on better with the RCC parents or the COI parents?

Kiwi in IE

Thanks Oblique. I am considering all those things as well. To be quite honest I'm tearing my hair out. A very good friend of mine has her daughter in the RCC where I enrolled him. She is happy with it (although she was raised Catholic, wouldn't describe herself as athiest even though she technically is, and is more likely to 'go with the flow' than me). My son adores her daughter and a couple from his play school are going there too. These were my initial reasons to enroll. When I did, the open heart surgery and demand for baptismal certificates got me going again on the indecision.

Obliq

Yeah, I can imagine the indecision :eek: Sounds awful - I would have had a serious problem with religious imagery being everywhere (and tbh, that would probably say a lot to me about how pushed, or pushy the school is about a faith....). I've never been laid back about my atheism, but then again, I've never encountered the more "in your face" RCC imagery in any school around here.

I remember bringing it up with my Dad, when I was first considering denominational school v travelling for miles and going outside my community. All he said (as a staunch atheist, forced to Mass till he left school at 14) was "I wouldn't worry, they'll lose it all with their first pint". I think that's what I've been trying to say really - there may be more concerns than religion with any school.

Obviously, if a school is more "creationist" than not, then it's clearly not a runner - but if it caters quite well for the more lackadaisical religious, then perhaps it becomes more an issue of how much you are prepared to ignore, than how much your child will be "taught" of a particular dogma? In an area where you have little or no choice, I mean.

For the record, I went to a protestant N.S., and that was the school where I was "looked at" by the teacher for not knowing prayers, and was questioned about why I was an atheist (age 8) when no other child was questioned about their belief. I lost all the resentment/hang ups about "being different" well before my first pint

Kiwi in IE

I did actually consider doing an hour round trip twice a day for the next 8 years to attend an ET school. If it were only the travelling to consider I would happily do it. However I decided I was being ridiculous considering adding an hour to his school day every day, and sending him to school miles out of his own community for the sake of my own (lack of) beliefs.

Kiwi in IE

Obliq wrote: »

Any chance you could base the decision on something else? Like whether you get on better with the RCC parents or the COI parents?

I wouldn't say I get on with one lot better than the other. There are nice people I know whose kids attend both schools, and others in both I wouldn't be too bothered with. Something I find strange here is that everyone knows what religion everyone else is. In NZ no one really cares about religion. Other than very close friends and family I wouldn't have had a clue what religion, if any, that colleagues and acquaintances were. Here I know the religion of everyone I associate with, and not because I've shown any interest in knowing. No one talks about it at home. It certainly dosn't come up in everyday conversation with acquaintances. I never identified as an athiest until moving to Ireland (although clearly that is what I was). On official forms you will be asked "Do you identify with any Religion? If so, what?. My answer was always no, and I never thought any more about religion.

Kiwi in IE

Red Pepper wrote: »

My kid is attending a Catholic school. I learned today that 10 children out of 28 in 2nd class are not doing communion. Sign of the times even though I think several of the 10 have recent immigrant parents. Given time I think the demand from parents and willingness of teachers to perform religious duties will get less and less and schools will adapt.

Haha. Recent immigrant parent is me!