Women priests - will it ever happen?

Roadtrippin

There's an article in the Independent about the subject: 'Irish cleric threatened with excommunication for suggesting women priests a possibility'

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/irish-cleric-threatened-with-excommunication-for-suggesting-women-priests-a-possibility-3358147.html

Will the Catholic Church ever allow any progressive ideas like women priests? What's your opinion, ladies?
I reckon it won't be in my lifetime that they'll allow it. The article above is just another example of how outdated attitudes are and I am not sure if they'll change anytime soon. It's a shame really.
What has to happen for women priests in the Catholic Church to be a possibility?

Morag

I don't think the Roman Catholic* church will this century ordain women as priests, married men will be allowed before that happens.

There are other christian churches which will and tbh I think most Irish Catholics are closer to be Irish Anglicans then roman Catholics but for cultural and historic reasons won't change congregations.

*the Roman Catholic church is not the only catholic church http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic#Other_traditions.

Roadtrippin

My hopes that it'll happen are slim as well.

But maybe in other Christian churches they will allow it. Didn't they have a vote on this issue over in the UK but it was decided that female priests were still not allowed in the Anglican church?

I just wish someday they would make it happen. But I'd say your prediction is correct. Priests will be able to marry before that will happen...

Morag

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination_of_women#Christianity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination_of_women_in_the_Anglican_Communion

No the Church of England has women priests, the most recent vote disallowed them becoming bishops.

The Church of Ireland has women priests and allows women to become bishops but there hasn't been one appointed yet.

Roadtrippin

I'm obviously not informed enough about the matter! Thanks for the links

*goes and does some research*

Morag

another link for you

http://www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Contemporary-Catholic-Perspectives.pdf

http://geoffsshorts.blogspot.ie/2013/01/in-defence-of-catholics-and-choice.html#more

The association of Catholic Priests funded the following excellent survey of Irish Catholics. Contraception and abortion were not covered directly, but we can judge general compliance with the hierarchy's rulings from other areas:

Only 12% of laypeople believe their views are sought by the hierarchy on important issues in their diocese
87% believe priests should be allowed marry
77% support the ordination of women
72% believe married men should be eligible for ordination
75% feel the Church's teachings on sexuality are irrelevant
Only 18% agree with the hierarchy on homosexuality
87% believe that divorcees should be allowed receive communion

Given those stats on those issues, like I said before it seems many Irish Catholics are not Roman Catholics and the type of reforms the association of catholic priests are looking (aside form the doctrine of Transubstantiation) are how the current Church of Ireland does things.

Roadtrippin

Brilliant! Thanks for that - will give me a bit of reading on the subject!

I wonder though, if such a high percentage of Irish Catholics have such modern ideas why has nothing been done in a lot of those areas? It boggles the mind why reform seems to take so long if the majority of people backs priests marrying and women priests?!

Morag

I think there may well be a schism to come.
I am hearing from people who are decades involved with the church as lay people,
who did partnerships in faith courses and Masters in All Hollows, who are on parish councils
that they have such modern ideas and they are looking for a way to make change happen.

I don't see why it should. It's their club, their rules. Plenty of christian churches have women clerics or whatever that people can join.

pwurple

Certainly not under this pope.

Lingua Franca

I don't see the Catholic church ever allowing women priests even if every Catholic in the world said they'd be down with it. Saint Paul, the first pope, was against letting women have any status in the church.

"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."[1 Cor. 14:34–35]

"Now I permit a woman neither to teach nor exercise authority over a man, but let her be in quietness."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle_and_women

Or to quote The Life Of Brian: "'cos it's written, that's why!"

Roadtrippin

bluewolf wrote: »

I don't see why it should. It's their club, their rules. Plenty of christian churches have women clerics or whatever that people can join.

It is their own business, yes. But I reckon a church that doesn't allow any women to be a priest but at the same time claims women and men are equal is quite hypocritical...

I am not a devout Catholic so, tbh, I don't mind that much what they do. But I think those Christian churches that aren't willing to take new (or not so new) ideas on board will lose members in the long run.

Viper_JB

Roadtrippin wrote: »

It is their own business, yes. But I reckon a church that doesn't allow any women to be a priest but at the same time claims women and men are equal is quite hypocritical...

I am not a devout Catholic so, tbh, I don't mind that much what they do. But I think those Christian churches that aren't willing to take new (or not so new) ideas on board will lose members in the long run.

Time and time again they've proven themselves to be very hypocritical, misogyny and patriarchy seem to be blocks on which the religion sits. In this day and age for any institution to be so sexist comes across as an almost immature school yard type prejudice. In saying that as BW said it's their own house/boys club, I guess we can be thankful that the religion no longer has such a strong hold over the minds on the Irish people.

Personally I don't see it ever happening as there never has been much a huge amount of morality or basic common sense placed upon the decisions made in the past, it'll continue to be run like a dictatorship until it dies I'd imagine. (Sorry for the rant )

awec

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Morag

awec wrote: »

Personally, I'd far rather see the church fade into obscurity and become an irrelevance so that people don't actually care that they don't allow women priests.

It's their church so it's their rules, what I find strange is people who give off about the no women as priests thing yet at the same time are happy enough to go to church every weekend.

Because those people see it as being their church,their parish, their community, they help run it, they fund it not some old man in a white dress in Vatican city.

awec

This post has been deleted.

Roadtrippin

awec wrote: »

Personally, I'd far rather see the church fade into obscurity and become an irrelevance so that people don't actually care that they don't allow women priests.

It's their church so it's their rules, what I find strange is people who give off about the no women as priests thing yet at the same time are happy enough to go to church every weekend.

I don't see a complete disappearance of the church happening in Ireland. It's a massive part of community life here, and schools and people are way two intertwined on one level or another with the church.
A lot of charity work is run by the church or church-related organisations. It would be a shame to completely lose that aspect of the church. I think not all things related to faith, religion or the church are bad. There is just need for reform to make it more relevant and useful to younger people.

awec wrote: »

The catholic church makes up it's own rules, those who attend are buying in to those rules. Women priests is not a decision that can be made at each individual parish, it's something that has to come from the top.

Yes, to some extent you're right. But there are plenty of people that still buy into some aspects of the Catholic Church without agreeing with every thing that is said or done there. I reckon those people should also be allowed some input into the way the church is run but not sure if that is happening or will ever happen.

krudler

I don't see why anyone who would want female priests, married priests, gay marrige etc etc would even consider themselves a Catholic to begin with. I can't think of a single other organisation where people go against the majority of its rules and teachings and still consider themselves members, its genuinely baffling.

There's a thread about this very thing in A&A forum as well, and was said by another poster, why do so many Catholics not have a clue about Catholicism?

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

*Thinks very quickly*

I'm in favour of them

Roadtrippin

deccurley wrote: »

*Thinks very quickly*

I'm in favour of them

In favour of...? Female Priests? Catholics? Which are you in favour of?

Dolbert

Roadtrippin wrote: »

In favour of...? Female Priests? Catholics? Which are you in favour of?

Fr. Ted reference

Roadtrippin

Dolbert wrote: »

Fr. Ted reference

Ha, now I get it

fits

krudler wrote: »

I don't see why anyone who would want female priests, married priests, gay marrige etc etc would even consider themselves a Catholic to begin with. I can't think of a single other organisation where people go against the majority of its rules and teachings and still consider themselves members, its genuinely baffling.

There's a thread about this very thing in A&A forum as well, and was said by another poster, why do so many Catholics not have a clue about Catholicism?

Because it is part of our identity.

I have hugely mixed feelings about the Catholic Church. My father died last year and the peace and routine being part of it gave him in the run up to his death was wonderful. Also the funeral ceremony was really beautiful. It was very simple and very religious.

Personally, I am lapsed and am the last person who will accept crazy beliefs just because I am supposed to, but I can see the value of a community, a place for reflection, a moral framework, an organisation that encourages people to think about and be generous towards those less well off than themselves.

Some of the most intelligent and interesting people I have met have been priests and I just think it is sad how they are expected to live their lives. And the focus from the vatican and the bishops lately always seems to be on issues like homosexuality and abortion, and never on other important issues like the greed and corruption we saw with the Celtic Tiger. If there were a schism, I would certainly be interested to see what happens.

krudler

fits wrote: »

Because it is part of our identity.

If you were a member of say, a GAA club or a social group or something with a track record of lies, deceit, corruption, scandals and abuse on an industrial level like the church has, would you still call yourself a member?

fits

krudler wrote: »

If you were a member of say, a GAA club or a social group or something with a track record of lies, deceit, corruption, scandals and abuse on an industrial level like the church has, would you still call yourself a member?

I'm a member of a bank if that helps

Death and Taxes

krudler wrote: »

I don't see why anyone who would want female priests, married priests, gay marrige etc etc would even consider themselves a Catholic to begin with. I can't think of a single other organisation where people go against the majority of its rules and teachings and still consider themselves members, its genuinely baffling.

There's a thread about this very thing in A&A forum as well, and was said by another poster, why do so many Catholics not have a clue about Catholicism?

I cant think of any other organization that has refused to evolve and grow with the times.
I see nothing wrong with the members of any organization including a religion campaigning for change within the organization.
Being a member should not require blind loyalty and obedience, indeed quite the opposite it should require constand reflection on how the organization functions and what it needs to do to remain relavent in changing times.

seenitall

WileyCoyote (Accelleratii Incredibus!) wrote: »

I cant think of any other organization that has refused to evolve and grow with the times.
I see nothing wrong with the members of any organization including a religion campaigning for change within the organization.
Being a member should not require blind loyalty and obedience, indeed quite the opposite it should require constand reflection on how the organization functions and what it needs to do to remain relavent in changing times.

That's all well and good if, you, as a Catholic, are prepared to live a few hundred years (at a very generous guess), in order to see what you are campaigning for (say women as priests, priests being allowed to marry, the change of the horrific, death-courting stance on contraception in Africa, etc...), gain any sort of traction, credibility or voice.

Because as far as I can tell from both the history of the Church and its very current practices, the financial and intellectual protection of its indisputable authority and its self-serving hierarchy is the unquestionable uppermost priority in the minds of its echelons.

Everything and anything else comes only a very vague second, third and so on, thus making it well nigh impossible for mere laity to influence any of their thinking or affect any change.

Death and Taxes

seenitall wrote: »

That's all well and good if, you, as a Catholic, are prepared to live a few hundred years (at a very generous guess), in order to see what you are campaigning for (say women as priests, priests being allowed to marry, the change of the horrific, death-courting stance on contraception in Africa, etc...), gain any sort of traction, credibility or voice.

Because as far as I can tell from both the history of the Church and its very current practices, the financial and intellectual protection of its indisputable authority and its self-serving hierarchy is the unquestionable uppermost priority in the minds of its echelons.

Everything and anything else comes only a very vague second, third and so on, thus making it well nigh impossible for mere laity to influence any of their thinking or affect any change.

I'm not a Catholic.
I was trying to put the view that counters the arguement that those who don't like it should leave the Church, the idea that you should just accept things as they are if you wish to remain a member of an organization.

Dfmnoc

don't think many women are into raping children

seenitall

Oh that's fine, I was using a general 'you' there really. (I'm not a Catholic either... any more.)

I think the idea that you were countering has a lot of merit, that's why I responded to your post.

I see life as being too short to bother with ideas, people or situations which, when unsatisfactory to my values, tastes and standards, don't yield an inch / are completely resistant to change. I'd rather spend my limited time and energy on things in which my input is valued and on things that I can actually enjoy or even improve during my time on the planet.

However, of course, when talking about this particular instance, I expect my opinion would possibly be different if I believed in the existence of that particular, three-pronged, bearded guy in the sky. As I don't, there it is.

Das Kitty

Dfmnoc wrote: »

don't think many women are into raping children

Nor are many men.

What's your point exactly?

Dfmnoc

why anyone would want to associate with the catholic church in this day and age is beyond me just shows the stupidity of some people

Roadtrippin

Dfmnoc wrote: »

why anyone would want to associate with the catholic church in this day and age is beyond me just shows the stupidity of some people

Judgmental much? I am not a great believer myself but there has to be room to leave people to their own faith, right?
Some people like the feeling of community the church has to offer and others just feel they are Catholics since they grew up with it. Either way, it doesn't matter what people believe - it's down to individual choice and shouldn't be condemned if you ask me. You can only condemn those people in the Catholic church that have done wrong.

Dfmnoc

Roadtrippin wrote: »

Judgmental much? I am not a great believer myself but there has to be room to leave people to their own faith, right?
Some people like the feeling of community the church has to offer and others just feel they are Catholics since they grew up with it. Either way, it doesn't matter what people believe - it's down to individual choice and shouldn't be condemned if you ask me. You can only condemn those people in the Catholic church that have done wrong.

I'm not condemning them for there faith or believes, just for there support for the church its self

Roadtrippin

Dfmnoc wrote: »

I'm not condemning them for there faith or believes, just for there support for the church its self

Fair enough. Despite the fact that the Catholic Church has had many members that did terrible things, the majority of members are still good people. There are plenty of Irish Catholics out there that never did any harm or that have done a lot of charity work.
I think you need to distinguish between church members, the church authorities, religion etc. I personally wouldn't send my child (if I had one) to a Catholic church if I can help it, simply because I believe the church authorities havent dealt appropriately with the offenders in their church and I would be afraid to trust a church that doesn't condemn abuse openly and swept it under the rug the way they have done. However, I still have the utmost respect for a lot of church members that are decent people. I may not share all of their beliefs but I can respect them. If they want to remain in the church that's their choice. Doesn't mean they support everything that happens in the Catholic Church.

WileyCoyote (Accelleratii Incredibus!)

WileyCoyote (Accelleratii Incredibus!) wrote: »

Being a member should not require blind loyalty and obedience, .

unless you're in the catholic church where that's pretty much in the rulebook

fits

^ I think a lot of that is down to current 'management'. It could change quite quickly in my opinion. Not while the current fella is there though.

awec

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krudler

fits wrote: »

^ I think a lot of that is down to current 'management'. It could change quite quickly in my opinion. Not while the current fella is there though.

But why be part of an organisation who you want to change their rules? Wouldn't it make more sense to find an church who's outlook you agree with more? (not you personally, just in general) Its such an odd Irish thing, to disagree with most of what the church says, but not want to leave, is it some kind of "what will the neighbours think" thing?

Ages back I was dating someone whose parents were staunch catholics, yet they stopped buying Ballymaloe relish after all that controversy, it boggles the mind, you wouldnt eat something because a person linked to it was involved in child porn, but an entire organisation which practiced abuse on an industrial level is fine? irony meter off the charts.

Fluorescence

I can't help but wonder why this question still arises all the time when the Roman Catholic Church's hands are, effectively, tied. The oldest teachings and scriptures* outline most clearly the differing roles that men and women play in the hierarchy of the church. The Church doesn't consider herself to have the authority to change this - rather it's seen that the Church must follow and obey Christ's divine will. Agree or disagree as you like, but that doesn't change the fact the Church cannot and will not ever ordain a woman. If it did, it would no longer be Roman Catholicism, and thus not in accordance with the will of God. They would not be true believers (cause we all know Catholics are the only real ones :rolleyes: ).

If I remember right, Pope JP II (or maybe the first one) wrote a statement of papal infallibility that closed the door once and for all for priestesses. It ain't happening. If you don't like it, change to a different denomination that fits you better.

For the record, I'll just state that I'm agnostic atheist.


*I'll come back later to plug in some quotes/links, but I'm not able to right now

Dark Phoenix

krudler wrote: »

But why be part of an organisation who you want to change their rules? Wouldn't it make more sense to find an church who's outlook you agree with more? (not you personally, just in general) Its such an odd Irish thing, to disagree with most of what the church says, but not want to leave, is it some kind of "what will the neighbours think" thing?

.

I kind of agree with this. Every organisation and religion is entitled to make their own rules. so if the catholic church is not up for female priests, divorce etc than that's their decision.
If you don't agree with it why not join a different religion whose ethos more closely matches your own? Why stay part of a religion whose views you fundamentally disagree with?

fits

Well I guess that's why a lot of people are lapsed.

So personally I am not part of it but care too little to actively seek out an alternative. if they reform I might think about it again. Otherwise, meh..... I guess I just don't feel strongly enough about it to actually leave.

I was in Spain recently for work and ended up staying in a monastery one night. It was a massive ancient, and impressive place. I decided to get up early to go to matins ( monks singing hymns) to see if I would find any peace or something. I'm not really sure why.

There were all these guys in robes. Young and old. And this is what they do, day in, day out. there was no peace. And it all just felt pointless.

eviltwin

I've no interest in religion, I left the church a few years ago and now call myself an athiest. I'd only go to a church for weddings etc.

I personally find it hard to understand why someone could still support an organisation that has such out of touch views and that continues to cause hurt to so many but I'm not going to judge anyone, if it makes you happy fair enough. A lot of people get a lot of comfort from their faith and if God or whoever gets you through a tough time in your life then great. But I think some people can't separte their faith from the church itself.

The only thing that does bug me is when people I know who seem to almost hate the church and all it stands for still insist on getting their kids bapthised thinking they will be bullied or treated like an outcast if they don't.

krudler

Dark Phoenix wrote: »

I kind of agree with this. Every organisation and religion is entitled to make their own rules. so if the catholic church is not up for female priests, divorce etc than that's their decision.
If you don't agree with it why not join a different religion whose ethos more closely matches your own? Why stay part of a religion whose views you fundamentally disagree with?

This, its like joining a club that you completely disagree with, and expect them to change their rules to suit you, not the other way around.

Faith

krudler wrote: »

This, its like joining a club that you completely disagree with, and expect them to change their rules to suit you, not the other way around.

It's not though. Most people are born into the church, they don't choose to join it. If you believe in one religious faith, you can't just decide to join another IMO. It makes much more sense to try and encourage reform, I think.

/Edit: Just in case there's any confusion with my username, I'm an atheist. I just think the matter is being over-simplified by comparing it to joining a club.

krudler

Faith wrote: »

It's not though. Most people are born into the church, they don't choose to join it. If you believe in one religious faith, you can't just decide to join another IMO. It makes much more sense to try and encourage reform, I think.

/Edit: Just in case there's any confusion with my username, I'm an atheist. I just think the matter is being over-simplified by comparing it to joining a club.

And aren't the church delighted for that. Get em young being the RCC's both official and unofficial with double meaning motto :pac:

Nobody is born a Catholic, you're indoctrinated into it. And again if you don't agree with the rules, find a religion that suits you better.

fits

I always thought that the people were the church. Not the priests and not the Vatican.
I think reform would make sense. They have the infrastructure and the ( dwindling) membership. I won't hold my breath though.

fits

fits wrote: »

I always thought that the people were the church. Not the priests and not the Vatican. .

For any other church that isn't based on their fundamentals, yes, probably.

Faith wrote:

Most people are born into the church, they don't choose to join it. If you believe in one religious faith, you can't just decide to join another

The problem we are talking about though is that people don't believe in half of stuff in this faith anyway. Their beliefs would be more aligned with another church. but they stay out of some "how DARE you say I'm not whatever I want to call myself", much like a vegetarian who eats meat

nokia69

I find it strange that people who never even go to mass and have no belief in any type of god or gods even care if the catholic church have women priests

leave them alone

and if you are a menber of the catholic church and the fact that wonem can't be priest pisses you off so much, just leave and join another religion

awec

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nokia69

awec wrote: »

Well, the issue here is that the church has it's hand in the pie when it comes to running this country. It's influence unfortunately extends far beyond mass on a sunday morning.

true but that influence is getting weeker all the time

I just find it strange that non catholics even care