Wrong to be Catholic ?

Dr. Loon

It was the last big report on child abuse by the Catholic church that drove me to leave them, as yes, I couldn't in good conscience count myself as one of them anymore.

Surely, if you are a member of something, you support it? If you don't support something, why would you be a member? So, if you don't support the Catholic churches stance on contraception, homosexuality, women, etc. never mind the sick cover up of child abuse, why are you a member? Why not leave and praise god in your own way? Or do you really believe only the catholics are right?

By being a member, don't you enable the continued existence of the largest organisation of child rapists the world has ever known - or is there another? I can't think of it if so. If all catholics left tomorrow, then we would be rid of the worlds largest organisation of rapists. Happy days.

Obviously that's not gonna happen, but my point is illustrated I think. The members are what make any club. If you object to how the leaders are running the club, then leave and set up your own club. If you support how the club is being run - condemning gays as evil, raping children, talking nonsense - then you keep donating into the little basket each Sunday. You do go to mass every single Sunday don't you? If not, prepare to be smote!

strobe

Dr. Loon wrote: »

It was the last big report on child abuse by the Catholic church that drove me to leave them, as yes, I couldn't in good conscience count myself as one of them anymore.

Surely, if you are a member of something, you support it? If you don't support something, why would you be a member? So, if you don't support the Catholic churches stance on contraception, homosexuality, women, etc. never mind the sick cover up of child abuse, why are you a member? Why not leave and praise god in your own way? Or do you really believe only the catholics are right?

By being a member, don't you enable the continued existence of the largest organisation of child rapists the world has ever known - or is there another? I can't think of it if so. If all catholics left tomorrow, then we would be rid of the worlds largest organisation of rapists. Happy days.

Obviously that's not gonna happen, but my point is illustrated I think. The members are what make any club. If you object to how the leaders are running the club, then leave and set up your own club. If you support how the club is being run - condemning gays as evil, raping children, talking nonsense - then you keep donating into the little basket each Sunday. You do go to mass every single Sunday don't you? If not, prepare to be smote!

It's kinda like this, if I could be permitted to get all analogous (if that is indeed a word).

Say you're a German, and lots of the Germans do a lot of very very bad things. Well you're still German, as far as you are concerned there's nothing you can really do about that, or would want to, because being German to you means being born in Germany and eating metallic tasting sausages, none of your fancy industrial murder business. You are what you are. You disaprove completely with what the Germans that were in positions of power and influence did. Near as you can figure, they 'officially' represented Germany, but they did so in bad faith. That **** aint what Germanness is about. So you say 'fukk those cvnts! They don't represent me, and they never really represented Germany either. I can cut and run, or I can just hang in there and do my best as a German to ensure that never ever happens again. I'll stay true to this part of me and us and hopefully build a new Germany that will be something to be proud of, something that I grew up believing it was meant to, and could, be."

It's that sort of thing.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

Bannasidhe

strobe wrote: »

It's kinda like this, if I could be permitted to get all analogous (if that is indeed a word).

Say you're a German, and lots of the Germans do a lot of very very bad things. Well you're still German, as far as you are concerned there's nothing you can really do about that, or would want to, because being German to you means being born in Germany and eating metallic tasting sausages, none of your fancy industrial murder business. You are what you are. You disaprove completely with what the Germans that were in positions of power and influence did. Near as you can figure, they 'officially' represented Germany, but they did so in bad faith. That **** aint what Germanness is about. So you say 'fukk those cvnts! They don't represent me, and they never really represented Germany either. I can cut and run, or I can just hang in there and do my best as a German to ensure that never ever happens again. I'll stay true to this part of me and us and hopefully build a new Germany that will be something to be proud of, something that I grew up believing it was meant to, and could, be."

It's that sort of thing.

and then they silence you.

http://www.thejournal.ie/fr-tony-flannery-762835-Jan2013/

Dades

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I'd say about 20% of the population are truly practising Catholics. There is another 70% out there who just keep on ticking that census form and making themselves and everyone else suffer! If you are not a Catholic, ie you don't believe in transubstantiation, please accept it and leave that box blank next census!

And don't forget the 20-30% of that supposed total that have no bloody say in what mammy ticks!

Gbear

strobe wrote: »

It's kinda like this, if I could be permitted to get all analogous (if that is indeed a word).

Say you're a German, and lots of the Germans do a lot of very very bad things. Well you're still German, as far as you are concerned there's nothing you can really do about that, or would want to, because being German to you means being born in Germany and eating metallic tasting sausages, none of your fancy industrial murder business. You are what you are. You disaprove completely with what the Germans that were in positions of power and influence did. Near as you can figure, they 'officially' represented Germany, but they did so in bad faith. That **** aint what Germanness is about. So you say 'fukk those cvnts! They don't represent me, and they never really represented Germany either. I can cut and run, or I can just hang in there and do my best as a German to ensure that never ever happens again. I'll stay true to this part of me and us and hopefully build a new Germany that will be something to be proud of, something that I grew up believing it was meant to, and could, be."

It's that sort of thing.

You can't leave and start your own Germany. You also can't actually choose whether or not you're German. There's also usually more at stake with what country you live in - language, relationships, a culture you're comfortable in - they can all be lost in a different country. It's not a great analogy.

I don't think that any parallels can be drawn to Germany with regards to innate corruption. The catholic church is rotten to the core because it doesn't just exist to serve god; it seeks wealth and power and it always has.
Germany is a far more organic being - there's no overriding purpose to Germany. It just exists. It's only as good as the people in it.
The RCC on the other hand has been a despicable institution for far too long - centuries - for it to just be coincidentally down to the fact that the hierarchy is always evil.

People who are actively trying to make the Catholic church not terrible get a pass, even if I think what they're doing is an exercise in futility because the RCC is fundamentally rotten.
The people who are acting immorally are those who just default to being catholic and give tacit support to the RCC. Apathy isn't really an excuse.

Artful_Badger

strobe wrote: »

It's kinda like this, if I could be permitted to get all analogous (if that is indeed a word).

Its not analogous to Germany. It can be more closely compared to a political party that has ideals and an agenda. So seeing as you chose Germany the closest thing would be the Nazi party. People who might not agree with the hard line on homosexuals and jews and such. But still identify with the underlying message of national pride.

Yet I'm sure most intelligent Nazi supporters soon realised how misplaced their support was when the party turned out to be the root of untold amounts of suffering.

Bannasidhe

Artful_Badger wrote: »

Yet I'm sure most intelligent Nazi supporters soon realised how misplaced their support was when the party turned out to be the root of untold amounts of suffering.

You mean those people who voted for Hitler, gave the old Seig Heil with enthusiastic vigour , fought for the regime, sent their children to the Hitler Youth but once the war was over turned out to never ever have really been Nazis?

Artful_Badger

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You mean those people who voted for Hitler, gave the old Seig Heil with enthusiastic vigour , fought for the regime, sent their children to the Hitler Youth but once the war was over turned out to never ever have really been Nazis?

I'm saying being a catholic is not like your nationality. But can be seen as like your membership of a political party.

To be a Nazi requires membership. Anyone who was a member was a Nazi and everyone who gave their support shares in the blame for what happened. People understand this so there aren't many intelligent people around now who'd be a member of the Nazi party for anything other than the strongest convictions in what they stand for.

While in the RCC nobody is responsible for anything that ever happens so it all just mooches along year after year ignoring the trail of suffering left behind it. And everyone are out in droves every year to sign their kids up to be part of a pretty disgusting organisation despite having no strong convictions in what they stand for.

robindch

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You mean those people who voted for Hitler, gave the old Seig Heil with enthusiastic vigour , fought for the regime, sent their children to the Hitler Youth but once the war was over turned out to never ever have really been Nazis?

Ah, Martha Gellhorn.

Martha Gellhorn wrote:

No-one is a Nazi. No one ever was. There may have been some Nazis in the next village, and, as a matter of fact, in that town about twenty kilometers away it was a veritable hotbed of Nazidom. To tell you the truth confidentially, there were a lot of Communists here. Oh, the Jews? Well, there weren't really many Jews in this neighborhood. I hid a Jew for six weeks. I hid a Jew for eight weeks. All God's chillun hid Jews.

We have been waiting for the Americans. You came to befriend us. The Nazis are Schweinhiinde. The Wehrmacht wants to give up but they do not know how. No, I have no relatives in the army. I worked on the land. 1 worked in a factory. That boy wasn't in the army, either; he was sick, Ach, How we have suffered! The bombs. We lived in the cellars for weeks. We have done nothing wrong. We were never Nazis!

It would sound better if it were set to music. Then the Germans could sing this refrain. They all talk like this. One asks oneself how the Nazi government to which no one paid allegiance managed to carry on this war for five and a half years. Obviously not a man, woman or child in Germany ever approved of the war.

From her 1945 article, We Were Never Nazis.

Bannasidhe

Artful_Badger wrote: »

I'm saying being a catholic is not like your nationality. But can be seen as like your membership of a political party.

To be a Nazi requires membership. Anyone who was a member was a Nazi and everyone who gave their support shares in the blame for what happened. People understand this so there aren't many intelligent people around now who'd be a member of the Nazi party for anything other than the strongest convictions in what they stand for.

While in the RCC nobody is responsible for anything that ever happens so it all just mooches along year after year ignoring the trail of suffering left behind it. And everyone are out in droves every year to sign their kids up to be part of a pretty disgusting organisation despite having no strong convictions in what they stand for.

Oh I agree in principle with what you are saying with one caveat - what happened in Germany was not just because of active members of the Nazi party. It was possible because the majority of Germans went along with it.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke.

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

Ah, Martha Gellhorn.

From her 1945 article, We Were Never Nazis.

My great uncle was tasked by the RAF with overseeing the destruction of Luftwaffe airfields outside Hamburg from 1946-48. He says its amazing that in that time he encountered not one Nazi...

Artful_Badger

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Oh I agree in principle with what you are saying with one caveat - what happened in Germany was not just because of active members of the Nazi party. It was possible because the majority of Germans went along with it.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke.

Thats essentially what I'm saying. But whereas its clear now what that led to in Germany, its ignored in the RCC over and over again. People are still just keeping their heads down and claiming its nothing to do with them while still members of the church. When in fact its everything to do with them as without them there is no RCC.

Bannasidhe

Artful_Badger wrote: »

Thats essentially what I'm saying. But whereas its clear now what that led to in Germany, its ignored in the RCC over and over again. People are still just keeping their heads down and claiming its nothing to do with them while still members of the church. When in fact its everything to do with them as without them there is no RCC.

Absolutely!

Dr. Loon

The analogy to Germany is nonsense. The analogy to the Nazi party is accurate.

If someone tells me they're a nazi these days, I consider them to be a scumbag. If someone tells me they're a catholic, well, I don't get to scumbag, I accept it as a persons right to religious freedom. But in my head I'm thinking. "Do they understand that they're essentially supporting the worlds largest ever known organisation of child rapists." I wonder if I asked them this, how they might take it. Because it is true and there's no escaping it.

Sarky

I learned over Christmas that one of my more distant relatives is married to a man who, for the last few years at least, has become bitter and abusive towards her.But she absolutely refuses to leave him or take him to task on his actions, or even mention it to anyone else. You know why? Four poisonous little words: "for better or worse". The only reason I know is because someone got drunk and let it slip out. She believes she's tied to that promise, and that she HAS to put up with him until one of them dies.

If it's not wrong to be Catholic, I reckon it's probably very f*cking stupid.

[Jackass]

If a bunch of atheists went on a bank robbing spree, murder spree, child molestation, would anyone without religion think that would be a reason to embrace religion?

My point being that it is disingenuous to use the many many flaws of many many people to suggest that someone has a moral failing for having their beliefs or "wrong" as the thread title suggests.

I think the Catholic Church inc. is a sham, more so than any other religion, and I fully encourage shunning and voicing disgust at the organisation, but I draw the line at attacking members of the church based on their beliefs, as like my original paragraph reads, how is it remotely relevant to any individual who has never engaged in any of these actions and is as ashamed of it as we all should be.

I find irony sometimes in how people attack the ignorance of hard line religious folk, but on the same hand, are as vigorous in their attacks on religion as hard line christians etc. attack atheism.

It's ok to have our own beliefs, but if you want the moral high ground, then don't stoop to the same hard line that makes bible belt, middle Americans look so stupid and ignorant.

Is the Catholic Church a joke and a dangerous organisation and the world would be a better place without it? In my view, yes. Should we attack peoples beliefs because of it? Absolutely not.

Artful_Badger

[Jackass] wrote: »

If a bunch of atheists went on a bank robbing spree, murder spree, child molestation, would anyone without religion think that would be a reason to embrace religion?

My point being that it is disingenuous to use the many many flaws of many many people to suggest that someone has a moral failing for having their beliefs or "wrong" as the thread title suggests.

Thats just another failed analogy. Atheism is a lack of belief its not a signed membership of an organisation. And if there was an organisation of Atheists and a bunch of them did as you say while those who run that organisation knew about it, allowed it to happen and then covered it up then I think personally that supporting that organisation would be wrong and I for one would distance myself from any such organisation.

I think the Catholic Church inc. is a sham, more so than any other religion, and I fully encourage shunning and voicing disgust at the organisation, but I draw the line at attacking members of the church based on their beliefs, as like my original paragraph reads, how is it remotely relevant to any individual who has never engaged in any of these actions and is as ashamed of it as we all should be.

I'm not attacking anyone based on their beliefs I am questioning the morals of those who support corrupt and harmful organisations. You are doing what most Catholics do and thats to ignore the fact that the Church itself allowed those individuals to do as they did. The RCC isnt just a set of written morals, its an organisation which is funded by people.

I find irony sometimes in how people attack the ignorance of hard line religious folk, but on the same hand, are as vigorous in their attacks on religion as hard line christians etc. attack atheism.

It's ok to have our own beliefs, but if you want the moral high ground, then don't stoop to the same hard line that makes bible belt, middle Americans look so stupid and ignorant.

Is the Catholic Church a joke and a dangerous organisation and the world would be a better place without it? In my view, yes. Should we attack peoples beliefs because of it? Absolutely not.

Peoples beliefs are always open to attack particularly when they are irrational and are detrimental to society. But I havent really attacked their beliefs here I am attacking their continues support of the RCC. You yourself see it as a dangerous organisation and think the world would be better off without it ? Why is that if the organisation itself is not inherently flawed ? And knowing that would you not think it wrong to support such an organisation for the reason of keeping up appearances ?

Artful_Badger

[Jackass] wrote: »

Is the Catholic Church a joke and a dangerous organisation and the world would be a better place without it? In my view, yes. Should we attack peoples beliefs because of it? Absolutely not.

Actually this point really bugs me. You are saying no persons belief should be criticised no matter how much harm it does ? Thats absurd.

robindch

[Jackass] wrote: »

[...] I draw the line at attacking members of the church based on their beliefs [...]

I don't "attack members" of any particular church or religion either. But, by design, it's hard to criticize religious ideas when the believers tie their personal identity and integrity to the religious idea being criticized. Thereby allowing the religious believer to start moaning about being "persecuted" when in fact, it's an idea that's being criticized.

In this way, religious believers turn a discussion of ideas (where criticism is ok), into a discussion of people (where criticism is not ok).

It's another neat adaption that most religious memes have evolved in order to block criticism by co-opting people's natural tendency not to be openly offensive towards others.

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

It's another neat adaption that most religious memes have evolved in order to block criticism by co-opting people's natural tendency not to be openly offensive towards others.

'...except when the others are questioning ones religious philosophy then openly offensive is the starting point' said she, glancing casually at a t'udder forum. ..<<..