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Wrong to be Catholic ?

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    #32
    Prodigious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭Prodigious


    If I choose the Catholic set of beliefs, what make me an immoral person, as you claim me to be?


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    #33
    Prodigious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭Prodigious


    bluewolf wrote: »
    You're right - anyone who isn't catholic must be atheist
    :eek:

    Seeing as its in the Atheism & Agnosticism Forum...


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    #34
    fisgon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,747 ✭✭✭fisgon


    Methememb wrote: »
    Ridiculous claims there. Total slander of followers of the Catholic Church. Stop imposing your opinions on others.

    How is expressing his opinion "imposing his opinions on others"? It's a forum, you are free to agree or disagree as you wish.


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    #35
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    Methememb wrote: »
    If I choose the Catholic set of beliefs, what make me an immoral person, as you claim me to be?

    If you are an active donating member of an organisation such as the Catholic church then you are funding an organisation that has had nothing but a negative impact on society through spreading misinformation and nonsense as fact. You are also supporting the moral authority of an organisation who stood by and protected paedophiles and ignored the plight of children who were being subjected to horrific abuse. This wasnt a few bad eggs, this was the organisation. Gods people on earth did this. You cant ignore it and say "well the next lot will be ok" Each century has shed a new light on the goings on of this organisation. And if at this stage you still think its good in any way shape or form and are willing to support it then you are doing society a disservice and if that is for your own contented ignorance and I'd call that immoral.


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    #36
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    Methememb wrote: »
    If I choose the Catholic set of beliefs, what make me an immoral person, as you claim me to be?

    First of all, the OP didn't claim anything of the sort. He simply asked a question of the forum.
    The_Artful_Badger wrote: »
    Is it morally wrong to be a member of an organisation with such a horrendous record as the Catholic church ?

    This is after all, what a discussion forum is all about.

    Secondly, to answer your question, it all depends on what you define as moral. For me, anything which is immoral is that which causes pain and suffering to others and generally has a negative impact on the rights of others and society in general.

    So in context of catholic beliefs, the opposition to gay rights, the opposition to contraception and the effect such opposition has had on the spread of AIDS in Africa, the cover up of countless cases of child rape and the surreptitious movement of paedophile priests to new locations where they could continue to offend, the negative portrayal and perception of women are all immoral attitudes in my opinion and that's just what the church is at right now. That doesn't even come close to the things its preached in the past like anti-semitism and the execution of heretics, blasphemers or even people whose only crime was to own a bible in English.

    Now, granted, you may not agree with certain positions of the Catholic church but then that just begs the question of why you consider yourself a catholic at all. After all one of the precepts of the Catholic Church is obedience to all teachings of the church.


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    #37
    Gbear
    Registered Users Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    I agree with the OP to a point.

    There's no reason why "good" catholics can't go found their own church away from Child Rapists Incorporated.

    Who the **** is the Pope? Is papal infallibly relevant when he's been proven to be wrong? Why should any Catholics feel they should have to stay with the church just because? They've clearly shown themselves to be completely inappropriate as any sort of moral guardians.

    Obviously a mixture of denial and apathy are what keep most people nominally catholic as opposed to being horrible people but there was a full blown schism a few hundred years ago and I'm not sure that the reasons for that were more legitimate than a paedophilia scandal of such frightening proportions.

    It is immoral to be part of the church and either not be lobbying for significant changes or actively seeking to start another free of the Catholic hierarchy. Every time someone pencils in "Catholic" on the census they're giving their support to an utterly and totally poisonous institution.


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    #38
    Prodigious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭Prodigious


    fisgon wrote: »
    How is expressing his opinion "imposing his opinions on others"? It's a forum, you are free to agree or disagree as you wish.

    If you read the OP, he is not asking a question, he is stating his opinion.


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    #39
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    Methememb wrote: »
    If you read the OP, he is not asking a question, he is stating his opinion.

    I'm posing a question while stating my reasons for posing it actually.


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    #40
    fisgon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,747 ✭✭✭fisgon


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Should we all stop watching BBC aswell? One of their members raped and abused and they covered it up?

    First of all the BBC and the Catholic Church are not comparable. One is a broadcasting institution, that does not claim any kind of moral authority, ultimate truth or connection to the creator of the universe, and has not been lecturing people for centuries on their sex lives and their behaviour.

    Secondly, Saville was one guy. There may have been others, but it doesn't compare to the hundreds of priests worldwide who have been convicted of abuse, and the hundreds of bishops who facilitated this, as well as the brothers involved in industrial schools and the nuns in the laundries.

    The abuse within the church revealed innate and undeniable aspects of catholicism that cannot be changed without changing the whole religion; the obsession with power, the twisted attitude to sexuality, the inability of the members to criticise their own church, the cowardice of the ordinary catholics who allowed themselves to be cowed and intimidated by the crozier and the collar.


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    #41
    Prodigious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭Prodigious


    The_Artful_Badger wrote: »

    Surely any person as it stands now cannot be associated with this organisation and still call themselves a good person can they ?

    Sir, this is not an unbiased basis of a discussion.


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    #42
    fisgon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,747 ✭✭✭fisgon


    Methememb wrote: »
    If you read the OP, he is not asking a question, he is stating his opinion.

    Are you serious? Are you really pursuing this line of defence?

    Yes, that is what I said, he expressed/stated his opinion. We agree on that. Yet, I repeat, this is a discussion forum, the OP "stated" his opinion, how on earth is this "imposing" his opinion on anyone else? Name one way in which anyone is forced to share his opinion, simply by the fact that he expressed it on an internet forum.

    The fact that you don't like his opinion does not mean that he is imposing anything. You need some better arguments.


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    #43
    Prodigious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭Prodigious


    fisgon wrote: »
    Are you serious? Are you really pursuing this line of defence?

    Yes, that is what I said, he expressed/stated his opinion. We agree on that. Yet, I repeat, this is a discussion forum, the OP "stated" his opinion, how on earth is this "imposing" his opinion on anyone else? Name one way in which anyone is forced to share his opinion, simply by the fact that he expressed it on an internet forum.

    The fact that you don't like his opinion does not mean that he is imposing anything. You need some better arguments.

    Line of defence? What do I need defence for?

    My beliefs are my own. This "discussion" is just an anti-catholic agenda. How about "Wrong to defend priests accused of pedophilia?"

    Being a catholic does not mean I agree with or support the organisation that is the church, it means the basis of my faith is catholicism.


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    #44
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    Methememb wrote: »
    Sir, this is not an unbiased basis of a discussion.

    It is the topic of discussion. Its the view that it might be immoral that I want to discuss. Not whether or not its nice to be a catholic.


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    #45
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Methememb wrote: »
    Being a catholic does not mean I agree with or support the organisation that is the church [...]
    The Vatican disagrees.


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    #46
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    Methememb wrote: »

    Being a catholic does not mean I agree with or support the organisation that is the church, it means the basis of my faith is catholicism.

    What does it mean, then?


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    #47
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Methememb wrote: »
    Line of defence? What do I need defence for?

    My beliefs are my own. This "discussion" is just an anti-catholic agenda. How about "Wrong to defend priests accused of pedophilia?"

    Being a catholic does not mean I agree with or support the organisation that is the church, it means the basis of my faith is catholicism.

    Ok this is a new one, even for a la carte Catholics.


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    #48
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    How is it that so many Catholics don't know the first thing about Catholicism? It's not exactly new, there's been plenty of time to learn the rules...


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    #49
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Sarky wrote: »
    How is it that so many Catholics don't know the first thing about Catholicism? It's not exactly new, there's been plenty of time to learn the rules...

    This, this a million ****ing times. "don't agree with the church or its teachings, sure Mary probably wasn't even a virgin, those wafers aren't REALLY made of Jesus. ah sure, still a Catholic"


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    #50
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Sarky wrote: »
    How is it that so many Catholics don't know the first thing about Catholicism?
    It's a selection effect -- if people understood catholicism proprely, they wouldn't call themselves "catholics".


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    #51
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Personally, I can't get my head around the fact that people I know to be kind, ethical, compassionate and unjudgemental (not to mention in many cases also homosexual) retain strong ties to the RCC.

    Why????

    :confused:


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    #52
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Personally, I can't get my head around the fact that people I know to be kind, ethical, compassionate and unjudgemental (not to mention in many cases also homosexual) retain strong ties to the RCC.

    Why????

    :confused:

    I can't understand the logic of wanting to be part of a group that hates you, I really can't. And before anyone jumps in with the "hate the sin, not the sinner" guff, yeah fcuk that noise, call a spade a spade.


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    #53
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,122 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Personally, I can't get my head around the fact that people I know to be kind, ethical, compassionate and unjudgemental (not to mention in many cases also homosexual) retain strong ties to the RCC.

    Why????

    :confused:

    Because they have been indoctrinated since an early age.
    All the authority figures in their childhood were similarly indoctrinated.
    Some people, including many of us here, do break out of that eventually but not always without long periods of doubt and guilt.
    It is always easier to not question* and go along with what you have always done and what your family have always done.


    * of course many if not most of us would be the types who could never not question things. Not a welcome attribute in a Catholic upbringing...
    All the small children I know ask questions about everything all the time. What is sad is that the unquestioning adults were once like that - somewhere along the way they learned not to ask potentially awkward questions.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #54
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    ninja900 wrote: »
    Because they have been indoctrinated since an early age.
    All the authority figures in their childhood were similarly indoctrinated.
    Some people, including many of us here, do break out of that eventually but not always without long periods of doubt and guilt.
    It is always easier to not question* and go along with what you have always done and what your family have always done.


    * of course many if not most of us would be the types who could never not question things. Not a welcome attribute in a Catholic upbringing...
    All the small children I know ask questions about everything all the time. What is sad is that the unquestioning adults were once like that - somewhere along the way they learned not to ask potentially awkward questions.

    I asked my OH about this. When I met her she called herself a Catholic but now, although a Theist, wants nothing to do with religions.
    She said 'fear'. She cannot shake the 'fear of God' they brainwashed into her....:mad:


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    #55
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    I especially don't know how women can remain in the church and often be the stauchest supporters of it. I know several relatives who are Eucharistic ministers who go on about 'changing from the bottom up', 'better be in it and change it' and 'I have my faith, I don't listen to the hierarchy'. When I even try to tease out these points, they immediately become very defensive and say if I don't want to be part of it, that's fine but they want to be part of it. Its not up to me to talk them around, I'm genuinely interested in how they can call themselves Catholic without following any of the major or minor beliefs.

    Given the record of the church on how it viewed women post birth, how women are entirely excluded from the decisions making process and how they are expected to live up to an impossible ideal in the form of the virgin Mary, I fail to see what the church has to offer any woman.


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    #56
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    The clergy decide what's right and wrong. You obey. That's how it works.

    The whole church is designed very specifically to be impossible to "change from the ground up".


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    #57
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Sarky wrote: »
    The clergy decide what's right and wrong. You obey. That's how it works.

    The whole church is designed very specifically to be impossible to "change from the ground up".

    Exactly. I've said as much, that its not a democracy with an open and accountable leadership interested in healthy and robust debate, but still the 'only the real faithful can change things' rubbish is still said.


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    #58
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,323 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    The Mad Hatter wrote: »
    What does it mean, then?

    It means they want the benefits of being part of the church (forgiveness, heaven, eternal life etc) with none of the responsibility (giving an organisation power which results in them being able to do bad things).

    It's essentially "We worship the same God, but 'My God' is different to theirs"


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    #59
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    I wouldn't say that it's wrong to be Catholic, so much as some people are wrongly identifying with the RCC out of habit, a sense of 'what would the neighbours think', and residual ill-will towards protestants. People will never accept that they are not Catholic because of those issues.


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    #60
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    I'd say about 20% of the population are truly practising Catholics. There is another 70% out there who just keep on ticking that census form and making themselves and everyone else suffer! If you are not a Catholic, ie you don't believe in transubstantiation, please accept it and leave that box blank next census!


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    #61
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    lazygal wrote: »
    When I even try to tease out these points, they immediately become very defensive and say if I don't want to be part of it, that's fine but they want to be part of it.

    The funny thing is, they don't want to part of it either. They wouldn't be trying to change so much of it if they were happy with it.


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