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Behavior of nurses over employment

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    #32
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Pilotdude5 wrote: »
    Now days the new nurse's come in, sit in the duty office all day doing paper-work, texting etc. When asked to clean a patient or even bring them a glass of water they turn their noses up as "that's the domestics job, I have a degree"

    That's about as accurate as another misconceived generalisation that pilots sit there reading books while a combination of a computer and air traffic controllers navigate and fly the plane.


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    #33
    SleepDoc
    Registered Users Posts: 306 ✭✭SleepDoc


    Neutron_pot wrote: »
    Is anyone else irritated by the behavior of recently graduated nurses and those seeking employment??

    The HSE opened up 1,000 nursing positions for graduates and others looking for work and these would-be nurses started to boycott the positions, even going as far as forming a whole "anti" campaign around it.

    I think this is totally selfish of them, i understand reduced salary is the issue of contention but isnt better than being unemployed??

    Also it provides an opputunity to gain valuable experience, money to leave the county if necessary and apply for other nursing positions.

    Seems selfish to me, like some arrogant sense of entitlement . . . .

    Thoughts???

    Sense of entitlement?

    No, nurses work hard for their pay.

    This will force Irish trained nurses to leave the country, much like Irish trained doctors.


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    #34
    KDII
    Registered Users Posts: 202 ✭✭KDII


    You've kind of taken the figures out of context.

    I am a final year nursing student. In 2009, when I started the course, nursing interns received 80% of an entry-level staff nurse's salary for their rostered year. It's now 50%. The entry-level salary has been cut by 10%. This offer is of 80% of the entry-level salary. Nurses, and in particular new graduates, have been given our fair share of cuts. In a 12 hour shift, working at 80% is the equivalent of me working 2 and a half hours for free in comparison to what the nurse beside me will earn. Same responsibility, same work, same hours.

    Cringey, emotionally manipulative language aside ("heroes", "slave labour"), the role of the nurse does carry great responsibility, is both mentally and physically taxing and is emotionally draining. Much of the frustration in response to this comes from having worked for 4 years already and seen the cuts first hand. Morale is pretty low at the moment where I work. This initiative is hugely demotivating.


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    #35
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Neutron_pot wrote: »
    Seems selfish to me, like some arrogant sense of entitlement . . . .

    Thoughts???

    They have a sense of entitlement all right. They feel they are entitled to a fair days pay for a hard days work.....


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    #36
    highcream
    Registered Users Posts: 49 ✭highcream


    RobFowl wrote: »
    They have a sense of entitlement all right. They feel they are entitled to a fair days pay for a hard days work.....

    The country cant affoard to pay newly qualified nurses the same wages as their predecessors.Actually,it cant affoard their pay rates either.Some people i believe actually have no idea of the disastrous situation the country is in.we are literally borrowing billions just to keep the country running.
    We have among the highest paid public servants in the EU.
    funny how doctors and nurses/midwives who are supposed to be"caring" would rather see a disabled person lose their home help than take a cut in their own wages..
    that is unfortunately the only alternative to cutting public sector pay.


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    #37
    2Scoops
    Registered Users Posts: 1,845 ✭✭✭2Scoops


    Singling out new nurses is wrong. Just as singling out new consultants is wrong. The pay is appropriate but the unfairness is not. Current employees must all take a hit, whether it be by increasing taxes or decreasing pay. But... Croke Park agreement blahdy blahdy blah.


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    #38
    bleg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭bleg


    Another example of the widespread ageism endorsed by this government against people under 25.


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    #39
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    highcream wrote: »
    The country cant affoard to pay newly qualified nurses the same wages as their predecessors.Actually,it cant affoard their pay rates either.Some people i believe actually have no idea of the disastrous situation the country is in.we are literally borrowing billions just to keep the country running.
    We have among the highest paid public servants in the EU.
    funny how doctors and nurses/midwives who are supposed to be"caring" would rather see a disabled person lose their home help than take a cut in their own wages..
    that is unfortunately the only alternative to cutting public sector pay.

    The country can't afford the politicians wages either so lets start there and show example. Fine Gael are not showing example, all NIMBYs.


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    #40
    iratira
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41 ✭iratira


    I see their point. Why they should earn less than people doing the same job? Same thing happened to doctors recently remember. They should just cut the pay across the board. It's simply unjust to have this two tiered system. Even a child could tell you that.


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    #41
    KDII
    Registered Users Posts: 202 ✭✭KDII


    highcream wrote: »
    funny how doctors and nurses/midwives who are supposed to be"caring" would rather see a disabled person lose their home help than take a cut in their own wages..
    that is unfortunately the only alternative to cutting public sector pay.

    I love when this argument is trotted out. Usually followed by "it's a vocation", "you knew what you were getting in for" or my personal favourite "sure nurses are nothing like they were in the old days".

    Do you actually think that's how budgets and the economy work? It's really that simple? Steal from the rich, give to the poor?

    Working in the HSE I could give you dozens of cost-cutting measures and ways to improve the service, as could all of my colleagues. Please don't think that frontline staff aren't painfully aware of the cutbacks being rolled out, and extremely frustrated at the limitations these pose on the standard of service being delivered.

    Leaving your opinion of healthcare professionals aside, this initiative and those like it are bad economics.


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    #42
    cuckoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭cuckoo


    highcream wrote: »
    Its their pay cut or cutting the pay of old people who have to wear nappies and cant even make a cup of tea for themselves.Disgusting
    highcream wrote: »
    funny how doctors and nurses/midwives who are supposed to be"caring" would rather see a disabled person lose their home help than take a cut in their own wages..
    that is unfortunately the only alternative to cutting public sector pay.

    Very simplistic argument - it's not one or the other. Why do you think that it is?

    In Q2 2012 the average weekly earnings for employees in Ireland was €691.87 gross (excluding bonuses and overtime), for an average week of 31.4 hours. So I don't think it's "disgusting" for nurses to want to be paid more than the €423.00 for a 37.5 hour week that is being offered.

    http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2012/earnlabcosts_q32012.pdf


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    #43
    Boskowski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    I think we can all agree on that some sectors of the public service get disproportionally overpaid compared to the European average. This is one of the reasons why our public wage bill eats up so much of our budget.

    So are we saying now thats the way it should be and screw it lets have a deficit and let our tax rates go through the roof so that we can keep paying nurses and teachers 30k+ starting salaries?

    I mean you have to start somewhere and personally I must say to anyone who falls out of college at the age of 21 and snubs their nose at 25k that they have a sense of entitlement indeed.


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    #44
    cuckoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭cuckoo


    KDII wrote: »
    or my personal favourite "sure nurses are nothing like they were in the old days".

    My favourite is "sure, when the nuns ran the hospitals you could eat your dinner off the floor it was so clean".


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    #45
    cuckoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭cuckoo


    Boskowski wrote: »
    I mean you have to start somewhere and personally I must say to anyone who falls out of college at the age of 21 and snubs their nose at 25k that they have a sense of entitlement indeed.

    It's 22k, not 25k. And what has age that the nurse 'falls' out of college got to do with it?

    And i'll say it again, I 'started' in the first year of the course, working unpaid on the wards. By the end of the degree I'll have worked for 81 weeks - 45 unpaid and 36 at less than minimum wage. I'll have very much 'started'.


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    #46
    KDII
    Registered Users Posts: 202 ✭✭KDII


    cuckoo wrote: »
    My favourite is "sure, when the nuns ran the hospitals you could eat your dinner off the floor it was so clean".

    Just this week I was informed:

    We need to get the matrons back. Put the fear of god in the new nurses and there was none of this budget deficit or MRSA then apparently.
    Nurses are wild.. You're hungover nurse aren't you? Out chasing boys all night. You look wrecked. nurses are all wild.
    You're just a machine operator (using a dinamap)
    A three day week? That's a doddle. I didnt actually design the roster like and iv still worked 26 hours of the last 48 thank you..
    You don't have a face that could carry of a nursing cap anyways.

    This was very off topic but cathartic..


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    #47
    Boskowski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    cuckoo wrote: »
    It's 22k, not 25k. And what has age that the nurse 'falls' out of college got to do with it?

    And i'll say it again, I 'started' in the first year of the course, working unpaid on the wards. By the end of the degree I'll have worked for 81 weeks - 45 unpaid and 36 at less than minimum wage. I'll have very much 'started'.

    Age has a lot to do with it. And experience or moreso lack of it.

    I'm not a nurse but I can tell you that I was pretty useless right out of college and so are pretty much all the people I see coming out of college right now.
    You really learn the job on the job and sorry but I think one should actually earn their wage. There is no entitlement for a young gun straight out of training to walk straight into a made cushy bed of 30k+. Especially not in a country that's broke.

    Bit of a tiger cub syndrome there by any chance?


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    #48
    cuckoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭cuckoo


    Boskowski wrote: »
    Age has a lot to do with it. And experience or moreso lack of it.

    I'm not a nurse but I can tell you that I was pretty useless right out of college and so are pretty much all the people I see coming out of college right now.
    You really learn the job on the job and sorry but I think one should actually earn their wage. There is no entitlement for a young gun straight out of training to walk straight into a made cushy bed of 30k+. Especially not in a country that's broke.

    Bit of a tiger cub syndrome there by any chance?

    I'm flattered - the anti ageing cream must be working as I'll be in my mid thirties when I graduate. So, not quite a cub. This is a change of career, and a second degree, so I'm well aware how useless most graduates are right out of college. In most graduate schemes it's considered a bonus if the grad can use Outlook and behave themselves in a meeting, and they're very carefully kept away from the customers until they've learned some table manners.

    But, in healthcare there is no 'graduate' role. I've been caring for patients since first year. The support and training I'm receiving during my course means that I'll be a capable nurse when graduated. Were you paying attention to the 81 weeks that on placement that I've mentioned twice already in this thread? A 'graduate nurse' is a Staff Nurse and will have their own patient load and get on with it. They will not be working at 80%, giving only 80% of medication or doing 80% of the care for their patients - and so should not be paid at 80%.


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    #49
    KDII
    Registered Users Posts: 202 ✭✭KDII


    Boskowski wrote: »
    Bit of a tiger cub syndrome there by any chance?

    Bit passive aggressive there by any chance?

    With respect, I'm not sure you fully understand the issue. A nurse's experience is rewarded with incremental rises in pay over years of service. Also a newly qualified nurse is a fully qualified practitioner working at independent level.

    The course is fairly gruelling to get through. Just this week iv worked 35 hours and am completing a 8,000 word paper for Monday. That's fairly standard for us for the final year of college. It's not something you pass through in some kind of pleasant haze of extra-curricular activities and socialising. It's really challenging.

    Also it would take years for a nurse to earn a basic salary in excess of 30k. What is being offered with this scheme is just over 10 euro an hour.


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    #50
    Boskowski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    cuckoo wrote: »
    I'm flattered - the anti ageing cream must be working as I'll be in my mid thirties when I graduate. So, not quite a cub. This is a change of career, and a second degree, so I'm well aware how useless most graduates are right out of college. In most graduate schemes it's considered a bonus if the grad can use Outlook and behave themselves in a meeting, and they're very carefully kept away from the customers until they've learned some table manners.

    But, in healthcare there is no 'graduate' role. I've been caring for patients since first year. The support and training I'm receiving during my course means that I'll be a capable nurse when graduated. Were you paying attention to the 81 weeks that on placement that I've mentioned twice already in this thread? A 'graduate nurse' is a Staff Nurse and will have their own patient load and get on with it. They will not be working at 80%, giving only 80% of medication or doing 80% of the care for their patients - and so should not be paid at 80%.

    Fair enough I hear you. At the same time, while maybe a mature graduate you're still a relative beginner in your job.

    Plus, what about the thing with the broke country and the need to reduce disproportionate wages?

    I said it before on this thread. The situation is just not the same anymore and the government will have to address the deficit somehow. We just can't afford to pay people significantly more than the European average. In fact we never could.

    If we're talking cuts I'd be all for fair cuts starting at the top, but the top has too much clout and they'll fight tooth and nails, too. Our political class is one of cowards unfortunately and they will never choose the fair way, they will choose the way they think they'll get away with.


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    #51
    cuckoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭cuckoo


    Disproportionate compared to where? Lower cost of living in the Uk and the NHS pays a starting salary of €25,579 - their nurses train for 3 years instead of the 4 here and are supported with an NHS bursary throughout their course and pay no fees.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/graduate-nurses-earn-twice-as-much-abroad-3353774.html

    And with this experience Boskowski values so very much, the HSE salary scale for new entrant Staff Nurses or Midwives of five years experience is €32,523 base pay. Still very much below the average industrial wage.

    Boskowski - I do agree with you on the cowardice of our political class.


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    #52
    Ryder
    Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭Ryder


    highcream wrote: »

    The country cant affoard to pay newly qualified nurses the same wages as their predecessors.Actually,it cant affoard their pay rates either.Some people i believe actually have no idea of the disastrous situation the country is in.we are literally borrowing billions just to keep the country running.
    We have among the highest paid public servants in the EU.
    funny how doctors and nurses/midwives who are supposed to be"caring" would rather see a disabled person lose their home help than take a cut in their own wages..
    that is unfortunately the only alternative to cutting public sector pay.

    Hypothetically, what would a graduate need to do to earn a six figure salary upon graduation? You posted that in another thread on the form. It just bothers me that the PS are seen as justifiable targets. Solutions....well if the private sector is the engine, leys make it work harder. Or we could privatize the PS and let people see the true cost of things like healthcare.


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    #53
    Flier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭Flier


    If the health service was a finely oiled machine of efficiency, and there was still a need for cost savings, I might agree. But the HSE is a sinkhole that's been swallowing up the billions of cash that the government has thrown at it for years now, with no results to talk of. Any fool can see the multitude of savings and efficiencies that could be made, but it's just easier to go for the 'low hanging fruit'. It's the race to the bottom guys - don't be proud to be part of it.


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    #54
    echo beach
    Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭echo beach


    Boskowski wrote: »
    If we're talking cuts I'd be all for fair cuts starting at the top, but the top has too much clout and they'll fight tooth and nails, too. Our political class is one of cowards unfortunately and they will never choose the fair way, they will choose the way they think they'll get away with.

    For too long they have got away with cutting those least able to protest. New graduate nurses are trying to fight back and instead of being supported some people are knocking them for standing up for themselves.

    Those at the top have the clout but they don't have the numbers. If those at the bottom could stand together they could force change but some graduates will have no option but to apply for these posts, e.g. if family circumstances mean they can't emigrate, and that is the weak link that is being exploited.


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    #55
    miss tickle
    Registered Users Posts: 242 ✭✭miss tickle


    SleepDoc wrote: »
    Sense of entitlement?

    No, nurses work hard for their pay.

    This will force Irish trained nurses to leave the country, much like Irish trained doctors.

    Why are we so precious about 'Irish trained' and whether or not they leave the country. The HSE (as an employer) is saying we have x amount of jobs at x salary, if a person feels this is not a good starting point for them then are free to choose other options. There should not be an obligation to provide new jobs in the public sector at salaries which a person feels they are entitled to. Irish trained nurses and doctors are not the only graduates leaving the country.


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    #56
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,513 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    miss tickle wrote: »
    Why are we so precious about 'Irish trained' and whether or not they leave the country. The HSE (as an employer) is saying we have x amount of jobs at x salary, if a person feels this is not a good starting point for them then are free to choose other options. There should not be an obligation to provide new jobs in the public sector at salaries which a person feels they are entitled to. Irish trained nurses and doctors are not the only graduates leaving the country.


    By that logic we should ship out all Irish workers and replace them with cheaper labour from elsewhere


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    #57
    KDII
    Registered Users Posts: 202 ✭✭KDII


    miss tickle wrote: »
    Why are we so precious about 'Irish trained' and whether or not they leave the country.

    We are so "precious" about it because it costs the Irish taxpayer 90,000 euro to train each Irish nurse. See this link to IMNO website: http://www.inmo.ie/Home/Index/7100/8731

    Unsure about the cost for other healthcare professionals.


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    #58
    2Scoops
    Registered Users Posts: 1,845 ✭✭✭2Scoops


    KDII wrote: »
    ... it costs the Irish taxpayer 90,000 euro to train each Irish nurse.

    That figure primarily comes from the cost of hiring nurse tutors and academic nurses. If we don't pay them as much, it won't cost €90k anymore! :pac:


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    #59
    Xeyn
    Registered Users Posts: 555 ✭✭✭Xeyn


    As I said, the government wants us to be squabbling over a subject like this. Keeps the pressure off those who should actually be getting cuts, not the most vulnerable elements.


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    #60
    miss tickle
    Registered Users Posts: 242 ✭✭miss tickle


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    By that logic we should ship out all Irish workers and replace them with cheaper labour from elsewhere

    Are you suggesting that the HSE is tho only employer of medical staff in this country and should there-for feel obliged to offer fewer positions, at a pay point which suits the employee?


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    #61
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    miss tickle wrote: »

    Are you suggesting that the HSE is tho only employer of medical staff in this country and should there-for feel obliged to offer fewer positions, at a pay point which suits the employee?

    The state is the only employer of nurses in public health and in teaching hospitals and would employ 80%+ of all nurses working here. The pay rates were agreed between nurses representatives and the state so yes I would expect the state to honour those agreements ( the bond holders have been treated with far more respect than those simply doing their jobs well)


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