Behavior of nurses over employment

Neutron_pot

Is anyone else irritated by the behavior of recently graduated nurses and those seeking employment??

The HSE opened up 1,000 nursing positions for graduates and others looking for work and these would-be nurses started to boycott the positions, even going as far as forming a whole "anti" campaign around it.

I think this is totally selfish of them, i understand reduced salary is the issue of contention but isnt better than being unemployed??

Also it provides an opputunity to gain valuable experience, money to leave the county if necessary and apply for other nursing positions.

Seems selfish to me, like some arrogant sense of entitlement . . . .

Thoughts???

highcream

If this is indeed what they did then i agree with u.
Public servants seem to have a feeling of entitlement in spite of their 35 hour work week,pension,lump sum and job security.
The tail is wagging the dog

Neutron_pot wrote: »

Is anyone else irritated by the behavior of recently graduated nurses and those seeking employment??

The HSE opened up 1,000 nursing positions for graduates and others looking for work and these would-be nurses started to boycott the positions, even going as far as forming a whole "anti" campaign around it.

I think this is totally selfish of them, i understand reduced salary is the issue of contention but isnt better than being unemployed??

Also it provides an opputunity to gain valuable experience, money to leave the county if necessary and apply for other nursing positions.

Seems selfish to me, like some arrogant sense of entitlement . . . .

Thoughts???

Xeyn

highcream wrote: »

If this is indeed what they did then i agree with u.
Public servants seem to have a feeling of entitlement in spite of their 35 hour work week,pension,lump sum and job security.
The tail is wagging the dog

Disagree.
These nurses are fully qualified professionals. They will be doing the exact same jobs of others whom they will be working with hand in hand but on a much reduced salary.
Where is this so called sense of entitlement? They should just accept whatever scraps the government throws there way?
And you should get your facts right about 35 hour weeks for public servants including nurses, as well as this nonsense about lump sums and to a lesser extent - job security.
No doubt it's a sector which is safer than most but there will be much needed junior doctors qualified soon and no job at the end of it.

There is a shortage of health care professionals in this country and if you think slashing there wages is the 'correct' way to go then this country is going to even worse off than it is now.

Neutron_pot

Dont get me wrong guys. . . .This isnt a dig at the public sector. I only refer to this situation where nurses have turned their noses up at 1000 positions

tayto lover

Neutron_pot wrote: »

Dont get me wrong guys. . . .This isnt a dig at the public sector. I only refer to this situation where nurses have turned their noses up at 1000 positions

They are standing up for themselves and their dependents. Nothing wrong with that. The cost of living for them has not come down by 20%.

highcream

Blind people,those with alzheimers,home help were all cut in the last budget to meet the troikas demands because the pay could not be cut from the health budget.According to James Reilly,70% of the costs in that budget is pay which has yet to be touched.
In spite of all these devastating cuts to people with disabilities pay INCREMENTS for high paid civil/public servants continued.
2 of my aunts are nurses.They do 3 12 hour shifts a week in Dublin hospitals.

Xeyn wrote: »

Disagree.
These nurses are fully qualified professionals. They will be doing the exact same jobs of others whom they will be working with hand in hand but on a much reduced salary.
Where is this so called sense of entitlement? They should just accept whatever scraps the government throws there way?
And you should get your facts right about 35 hour weeks for public servants including nurses, as well as this nonsense about lump sums and to a lesser extent - job security.
No doubt it's a sector which is safer than most but there will be much needed junior doctors qualified soon and no job at the end of it.

There is a shortage of health care professionals in this country and if you think slashing there wages is the 'correct' way to go then this country is going to even worse off than it is now.

opinion guy

Neutron_pot wrote: »

Dont get me wrong guys. . . .This isnt a dig at the public sector. I only refer to this situation where nurses have turned their noses up at 1000 positions

They are not turning their noses up at the positions themselves, but at being treated like second class workers compared to their colleagues. And correct me if I wrong but some quick calculations tell me their new wage would be in just above 10EUR an hour.

Minimum wage is 8.65 an hour. MCDonalds pay a starting wage of 9EUR an hour - with a lot less responsiblity and (hopefully) less life and death situations - oh and no need of a degree:
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/wake-up-to-a-career-and-good-coffee-at-mcdonalds-3029015.html

You really think 10EUR an hour is a good enough wage for doing such a responsible and essential job ?

Edit: Probably better career development in McD's and all

opinion guy

highcream wrote: »

Blind people,those with alzheimers,home help were all cut in the last budget to meet the troikas demands because the pay could not be cut from the health budget.According to James Reilly,70% of the costs in that budget is pay which has yet to be touched.

The HSE pay figure includes managment and admin - whom are far too numerous and make alot more than entry level nurses do. Why target the front line staff who do the most essential work ?

In spite of all these devastating cuts to people with disabilities pay INCREMENTS for high paid civil/public servants continued.

2 of my aunts are nurses.They do 3 12 hour shifts a week in Dublin hospitals.

Are you making some point about your aunts ? not sure why you've included this info

Boskowski

Xeyn wrote: »

Disagree.
These nurses are fully qualified professionals. They will be doing the exact same jobs of others whom they will be working with hand in hand but on a much reduced salary.
Where is this so called sense of entitlement? They should just accept whatever scraps the government throws there way?
And you should get your facts right about 35 hour weeks for public servants including nurses, as well as this nonsense about lump sums and to a lesser extent - job security.
No doubt it's a sector which is safer than most but there will be much needed junior doctors qualified soon and no job at the end of it.

There is a shortage of health care professionals in this country and if you think slashing there wages is the 'correct' way to go then this country is going to even worse off than it is now.

They are free to become nurses elsewhere. For example in the private sector.

Market conditions have changed dramatically, so has the depth if the potential employer's purse.

I would call it sense of entitlement indeed.

<Mod Snip>
Please refrain from comments belittling nursing as a profession

flutered

tayto lover wrote: »

They are standing up for themselves and their dependents. Nothing wrong with that. The cost of living for them has not come down by 20%.

we all know about the recession, but all these have been trained at some cost to the country, nurses, doctors etc get a high quality training, with the sick, the disabled, the carers been made the scapegoats, time brings change, nothing can stay the same, it cannot, why can all the highly trained professionals give something back to their country, for the training and teaching that they recieved.

Tombo2001

It would be very very very demoralising to be in a position where you are in the same job as the person sitting beside you, doing exactly the same work as the person sitting beside you, and getting 15% less pay.....or whatever the situation is.

And in addition, it is just plain wrong, in a moral sense.

You can say all you want about, shouldnt they be grateful just to have a job no matter what the pay.....I disagree......i think people should have higher aspirations in life. Its not like nurses dont have other options. There are plenty of other countries who would be delighted to have them.

I dont know any nurses to be honest, there are none in my family. But from my experience of dealing with them, and knowing what they earn, and comparing that to what other people earn in private or public sector for much less important and easier jobs (I'm looking at you back bencher TD!!), I dont think they are paid enough.

Pilotdude5

<Mod Snip>

Please refrain from comments belittling nursing as a profession

Deise Vu

highcream wrote: »

Blind people,those with alzheimers,home help were all cut in the last budget to meet the troikas demands because the pay could not be cut from the health budget.According to James Reilly,70% of the costs in that budget is pay which has yet to be touched.
In spite of all these devastating cuts to people with disabilities pay INCREMENTS for high paid civil/public servants continued.
2 of my aunts are nurses.They do 3 12 hour shifts a week in Dublin hospitals.

I am curious about the pay arrangements for this shift. Is the last four hours paid at a premium (ie overtime) rate?

Neutron_pot

They are not turning their noses up at the positions themselves, but at being treated like second class workers compared to their colleagues. And correct me if I wrong but some quick calculations tell me their new wage would be in just above 10EUR an hour.

Minimum wage is 8.65 an hour. MCDonalds pay a starting wage of 9EUR an hour - with a lot less responsiblity and (hopefully) less life and death situations - oh and no need of a degree:
http://www.independent.ie/business/i...s-3029015.html

You really think 10EUR an hour is a good enough wage for doing such a responsible and essential job ?

Why do people insist on looking at this as a glass half empty? i cant agree with this for a couple of reasons;

1. Nobody is suggesting these selfish nurses work for this wage for the rest of their lives. . .Emigration, private sector, or just dont apply to begin with

2. hundreds and hundreds of people have have choosen or had no choice but to take up FAS bridge schemes with only an extra 50 quid on top of the dole. - Not a peep out of them.

3. Hundreds of post grads and researchers working for their masters or Ph.D have to survive on stipends of less than 10,000 a year - not a peep out of them.

We all have to start at the bottom and work up! or in some cases re-start at the bottom

cuckoo

I'm a student nurse. I'm not irritated by the nurses campaign. I'm also not irritated by the newly qualified teachers' campaign.

Neutron_pot wrote: »

The HSE opened up 1,000 nursing positions for graduates and others looking for work and these would-be nurses started to boycott the positions, even going as far as forming a whole "anti" campaign around it.

To 'create' these position the HSE is letting go agency staff that have been filling in these posts since the recruitment embargo. The voluntary hospitals that hired 2012 nursing grads in September, usually on 12 month contracts, have been instructed to cancel those contracts and tell the grads to apply for the HSE Scheme. There will be no increase in the number of nurses working, no closed wards opened up again and no reduction in waiting lists for procedures.

Only 2012 graduates are eligible to apply for this, not 2011, not 2010 - not 1999. The newly qualified, the more obedient and the least confident - that's who the HSE wants to exploit.

Neutron_pot wrote: »

Also it provides an opputunity to gain valuable experience, money to leave the county if necessary and apply for other nursing positions.

The 81 weeks I'll have spent on placement during my 4 year course (only 36 of them paid - less than minimum wage while being counted as a member of staff on a ward) will have given me 'valuable experience'. NHS hospitals recognise the value of the Irish training, and Irish trained nurses won't be needing money to leave the country as moving expenses and the first months accommadation are usually provided by the UK hospitals that come over here to recruit.

But, really, is it the function of our health service and our colleges to train health staff for export?

Neutron_pot wrote: »

Seems selfish to me, like some arrogant sense of entitlement . . . .

Thoughts???

I don't think it's selfish to want to be paid more than €22,000 a year on a fixed two year contract, as a degree qualified professional with a lot of responsibility. Porters, cleaners, health care assistants - none of them require degrees and all have starting salaries higher than €22,000.

highcream wrote: »

If this is indeed what they did then i agree with u.
Public servants seem to have a feeling of entitlement in spite of their 35 hour work week,pension,lump sum and job security.
The tail is wagging the dog

35 hour week? Nurses in hospitals in the shift patterns I'm familiar with work 13 7.30am to 8.15pm shifts over a month, typically 3 shifts a week and one week with 4.

Pension? New entrants, which these 2012 grads are, will be receving pensions based on an average of their lifetime earnings, and pay the pension levy.

Lump sum and job security? It's a 2 year fixed contract, at the end of it there'll be a 'good bye' and instructions to clear out your locker.

tayto lover

flutered wrote: »

we all know about the recession, but all these have been trained at some cost to the country, nurses, doctors etc get a high quality training, with the sick, the disabled, the carers been made the scapegoats, time brings change, nothing can stay the same, it cannot, why can all the highly trained professionals give something back to their country, for the training and teaching that they recieved.

KFC and McDonalds give training too and pay the equivalent of what a nurse would get with less responsibility.
I don't want a disgruntled and angry nurse looking after me when I am in the hospital. They have a very responsible job and should be paid accordingly.

highcream

I agree totally with this post.I know a vet who started an equine job recently(just graduated) on 16k. U have no idea how hard a course vet is.We also have tons of engineers,architects in similar positions.
The difference between these graduates is they dont feel that sense of entitlement.
Saying all that,i would rather we start with cutting the high paid public/civil servants and work down.Those guys are rotten to the core and care only about their massive pensions/lump sums. How its gotten to the stage that bureaucrats are "negotiating" whether we should reduce public sector pay is beyond me.They should have no say whatsoever. Its their pay cut or cutting the pay of old people who have to wear nappies and cant even make a cup of tea for themselves.Disgusting

Neutron_pot wrote: »

Why do people insist on looking at this as a glass half empty? i cant agree with this for a couple of reasons;

1. Nobody is suggesting these selfish nurses work for this wage for the rest of their lives. . .Emigration, private sector, or just dont apply to begin with

2. hundreds and hundreds of people have have choosen or had no choice but to take up FAS bridge schemes with only an extra 50 quid on top of the dole. - Not a peep out of them.

3. Hundreds of post grads and researchers working for their masters or Ph.D have to survive on stipends of less than 10,000 a year - not a peep out of them.

We all have to start at the bottom and work up! or in some cases re-start at the bottom

cuckoo

Pilotdude5 wrote: »

This right here. My parents quilified as nurses 30 years ago before it was a degree. They now supervise students on work-placement and recent grads. In their day they worked hard Now days the new nurse's come in, sit in the duty office all day doing paper-work, texting etc. When asked to clean a patient or even bring them a glass of water they turn their noses up as "that's the domestics job, I have a degree"

Massive generalization I know but it does happen.

Your parents could fail those students. I've never seen that happen when I've been on placement, but that's not to say it doesn't happen. Most places I've been in are so short staffed I'd have been eaten alive by the nurses if I'd tried to sit around and do nothing.

Deise Vu wrote: »

I am curious about the pay arrangements for this shift. Is the last four hours paid at a premium (ie overtime) rate?

No premium for the last four hours. Only premiums are for night duty - 7.30pm to 8.15am (+25%) and Sundays/Public holidays (+100%). I think Saturdays get an extra 12 euro per shift.

Neutron_pot

I understand where you are coming from . . . but if you have this many issues then why cant nurses just peacefully decline, instead of making a huge fuss over pay, cuts, morals etc??

but to address your points, yes the hse is a joke and poorly admisistrated,

secondly ive spent four years doing a VERY tough science degree with unpaid placement in a hospital too, and now for my masters research position, i earn less than 10,000 a year . .is my effort somehow less than yours

Thirdly incase you havnt noticed emigration is a BIG part of life these days, not just nurses...everybody.

I just dont get why nurses would refuse this, its counter productive

Ryder

Neutron_pot wrote: »

Is anyone else irritated by the behavior of recently graduated nurses and those seeking employment??

The HSE opened up 1,000 nursing positions for graduates and others looking for work and these would-be nurses started to boycott the positions, even going as far as forming a whole "anti" campaign around it.

I think this is totally selfish of them, i understand reduced salary is the issue of contention but isnt better than being unemployed??

Also it provides an opputunity to gain valuable experience, money to leave the county if necessary and apply for other nursing positions.

Seems selfish to me, like some arrogant sense of entitlement . . . .

Thoughts???

Thoughts......well its disaster capitalism at its best. They are efectively cutting 1000 jobs to add 1000 jobs at lower pay. Anybody, anybody who thinks that these posts will then be advertised in 2 years at a higher rate is mistaken. Its more likely that existing salaries will be reduced to meet it.
Therefore its right that nurses stand up to this. The HSE is the only employer, with a de facto monopoly....how else do you voice disapproval?

Free education..shouldnt they have to pay it back? Maybe, but that logic must be applied equally to all graduates not just the health sector

Governement attempts to reduce pay and conditions would be met with far more acceptance if they started with themselves. There is no getting away from the fiscal situation, but why apply it to one sector and not to all? To be honest, I really dont get how people can wonder about the nurses motivation here

cuckoo

Neutron_pot wrote: »

secondly ive spent four years doing a VERY tough science degree with unpaid placement in a hospital too, and now for my masters research position, i earn less than 10,000 a year . .is my effort somehow less than yours

Thirdly incase you havnt noticed emigration is a BIG part of life these days, not just nurses...everybody.

I just dont get why nurses would refuse this, its counter productive

I studied a science degree, and then worked for a while in an unrelated field before choosing to enter nursing. Is there such a thing as a science degree that isn't tough?

Placement as a nursing student isn't like being in a lab or doing practicals. Patients are vulnerable, and we're trying to not harm them while learning. We're in uniforms and thus patients and visitors see us as a member of staff. It's long, tiring days and if we miss a day (or even a half day) due to being sick or having a family funeral, etc we have to make up that time during the holidays. It's hands on work. It was also an eye opener to me how much abuse health care staff get from patients, families and visitors - both physical and verbal.

I really like nursing, but I don't know if financially I would do it for €22,000. I didn't choose to go into nursing to get rich, but I'm not a martyr or a nun - while it may appear the first point on the salary scale for nursing is a lot at €27,000, it doesn't really go up that much compared to other careers as the employee gains experience. There's no bonuses, some allowances for extra qualifications but not much.

chanste

Some of the ignorance in this thread is disturbing.

Nurses in my experience work damn bloody hard for their money. €22k is an insult. The whole texting while working thing is a very rare exception and frankly the accusation aimed at younger nurses is a bit of whining by the older generation who have indeed worked hard themselves too. Also they do not always work 3 day weeks, and their shift is longer than 12 hours for purposes of the next shift taking over care.

If the government has paid for my medical education, then why are medical schools sending me €60,000 worth of bills for fees? My med loan will be €100,000. If they want people to continue this kind of investment in themselves, they need to pay well - and despite what the troika think, people are fecking off in their droves because better pay and conditions will be paid elsewhere.

PhD students DO complain... generally not in health sciences forum. Their also generally aware of what money they will get when they sign on. This €22k thing has been sprung on nurses and midwives who are already studying.

If the government had any balls it would stop picking out various sectors for paycuts and simply raise income taxes to undeniably catch everyone based on their income.

The reason they continue to degrade conditions of health sector frontline staff rather than those in admin etc is no doubt because every time they have taken what they needed from these workers there has been nothing more than a nationwide mumble for a response.

juan.kerr

A very disappointing response from the graduate nurses.

Neutron_pot

Agreed, this is an insult from a spineless government . . . .but bottom line,

which would be more beneficial? Applying for one of these positions before there gone or sitting out on the street with a yellow tshirt and blowing a whistle?

mikom

Neutron_pot wrote: »

Agreed, this is an insult from a spineless government . . . .but bottom line,

which would be more beneficial? Applying for one of these positions before there gone or sitting out on the street with a yellow tshirt and blowing a whistle?

♫ Did you exchange a walk on part in the war, for a lead role in a cage?

fupduck

first they came for the nurses, and I did not speak out because I wasn't a nurse .........

Xeyn

fupduck wrote: »

first they came for the nurses, and I did not speak out because I wasn't a nurse .........

Isn't it strange that they always hit the most vulnerable. Lets not compare cuts in other sectors, two wrongs dot make a right and it that mentality that the govt would love the populous to adopt.
'My income has dropped, why shouldn't theirs?'
Standing up for yourselves is something that should be commended in this country because far few people do it.

Neutron_pot

♫ Did you exchange a walk on part in the war, for a lead role in a cage?

Not sure if... really clever comback



or jibberish

mikom

Neutron_pot wrote: »

Not sure if... really clever comback



or jibberish

comback?
Shine on you crazy diamond.

RobFowl

juan.kerr wrote: »

A very disappointing response from the graduate nurses.

They're not like most civil servants in that they cannot access the net when working

tayto lover

Neutron_pot wrote: »

Agreed, this is an insult from a spineless government . . . .but bottom line,

which would be more beneficial? Applying for one of these positions before there gone or sitting out on the street with a yellow tshirt and blowing a whistle?

I'd sit out on the street to be honest but it would be a nice warm street in Dubai or somewhere similar.
Do you think the nurses will be the last to be hit. They already have reserve gardai who they use at every public event. Next we will see volunteer firemen, reserve army and then maybe a few butchers used to perform operations in hospitals while they travel abroad for their own operations.

drkpower

Pilotdude5 wrote: »

Now days the new nurse's come in, sit in the duty office all day doing paper-work, texting etc. When asked to clean a patient or even bring them a glass of water they turn their noses up as "that's the domestics job, I have a degree"

That's about as accurate as another misconceived generalisation that pilots sit there reading books while a combination of a computer and air traffic controllers navigate and fly the plane.

SleepDoc

Neutron_pot wrote: »

Is anyone else irritated by the behavior of recently graduated nurses and those seeking employment??

The HSE opened up 1,000 nursing positions for graduates and others looking for work and these would-be nurses started to boycott the positions, even going as far as forming a whole "anti" campaign around it.

I think this is totally selfish of them, i understand reduced salary is the issue of contention but isnt better than being unemployed??

Also it provides an opputunity to gain valuable experience, money to leave the county if necessary and apply for other nursing positions.

Seems selfish to me, like some arrogant sense of entitlement . . . .

Thoughts???

Sense of entitlement?

No, nurses work hard for their pay.

This will force Irish trained nurses to leave the country, much like Irish trained doctors.

KDII

You've kind of taken the figures out of context.

I am a final year nursing student. In 2009, when I started the course, nursing interns received 80% of an entry-level staff nurse's salary for their rostered year. It's now 50%. The entry-level salary has been cut by 10%. This offer is of 80% of the entry-level salary. Nurses, and in particular new graduates, have been given our fair share of cuts. In a 12 hour shift, working at 80% is the equivalent of me working 2 and a half hours for free in comparison to what the nurse beside me will earn. Same responsibility, same work, same hours.

Cringey, emotionally manipulative language aside ("heroes", "slave labour"), the role of the nurse does carry great responsibility, is both mentally and physically taxing and is emotionally draining. Much of the frustration in response to this comes from having worked for 4 years already and seen the cuts first hand. Morale is pretty low at the moment where I work. This initiative is hugely demotivating.

RobFowl

Neutron_pot wrote: »

Seems selfish to me, like some arrogant sense of entitlement . . . .

Thoughts???

They have a sense of entitlement all right. They feel they are entitled to a fair days pay for a hard days work.....

highcream

RobFowl wrote: »

They have a sense of entitlement all right. They feel they are entitled to a fair days pay for a hard days work.....

The country cant affoard to pay newly qualified nurses the same wages as their predecessors.Actually,it cant affoard their pay rates either.Some people i believe actually have no idea of the disastrous situation the country is in.we are literally borrowing billions just to keep the country running.
We have among the highest paid public servants in the EU.
funny how doctors and nurses/midwives who are supposed to be"caring" would rather see a disabled person lose their home help than take a cut in their own wages..
that is unfortunately the only alternative to cutting public sector pay.

2Scoops

Singling out new nurses is wrong. Just as singling out new consultants is wrong. The pay is appropriate but the unfairness is not. Current employees must all take a hit, whether it be by increasing taxes or decreasing pay. But... Croke Park agreement blahdy blahdy blah.

bleg

Another example of the widespread ageism endorsed by this government against people under 25.

tayto lover

highcream wrote: »

The country cant affoard to pay newly qualified nurses the same wages as their predecessors.Actually,it cant affoard their pay rates either.Some people i believe actually have no idea of the disastrous situation the country is in.we are literally borrowing billions just to keep the country running.
We have among the highest paid public servants in the EU.
funny how doctors and nurses/midwives who are supposed to be"caring" would rather see a disabled person lose their home help than take a cut in their own wages..
that is unfortunately the only alternative to cutting public sector pay.

The country can't afford the politicians wages either so lets start there and show example. Fine Gael are not showing example, all NIMBYs.

iratira

I see their point. Why they should earn less than people doing the same job? Same thing happened to doctors recently remember. They should just cut the pay across the board. It's simply unjust to have this two tiered system. Even a child could tell you that.

KDII

highcream wrote: »

funny how doctors and nurses/midwives who are supposed to be"caring" would rather see a disabled person lose their home help than take a cut in their own wages..
that is unfortunately the only alternative to cutting public sector pay.

I love when this argument is trotted out. Usually followed by "it's a vocation", "you knew what you were getting in for" or my personal favourite "sure nurses are nothing like they were in the old days".

Do you actually think that's how budgets and the economy work? It's really that simple? Steal from the rich, give to the poor?

Working in the HSE I could give you dozens of cost-cutting measures and ways to improve the service, as could all of my colleagues. Please don't think that frontline staff aren't painfully aware of the cutbacks being rolled out, and extremely frustrated at the limitations these pose on the standard of service being delivered.

Leaving your opinion of healthcare professionals aside, this initiative and those like it are bad economics.

cuckoo

highcream wrote: »

Its their pay cut or cutting the pay of old people who have to wear nappies and cant even make a cup of tea for themselves.Disgusting

highcream wrote: »

funny how doctors and nurses/midwives who are supposed to be"caring" would rather see a disabled person lose their home help than take a cut in their own wages..
that is unfortunately the only alternative to cutting public sector pay.

Very simplistic argument - it's not one or the other. Why do you think that it is?

In Q2 2012 the average weekly earnings for employees in Ireland was €691.87 gross (excluding bonuses and overtime), for an average week of 31.4 hours. So I don't think it's "disgusting" for nurses to want to be paid more than the €423.00 for a 37.5 hour week that is being offered.

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2012/earnlabcosts_q32012.pdf

Boskowski

I think we can all agree on that some sectors of the public service get disproportionally overpaid compared to the European average. This is one of the reasons why our public wage bill eats up so much of our budget.

So are we saying now thats the way it should be and screw it lets have a deficit and let our tax rates go through the roof so that we can keep paying nurses and teachers 30k+ starting salaries?

I mean you have to start somewhere and personally I must say to anyone who falls out of college at the age of 21 and snubs their nose at 25k that they have a sense of entitlement indeed.

cuckoo

KDII wrote: »

or my personal favourite "sure nurses are nothing like they were in the old days".

My favourite is "sure, when the nuns ran the hospitals you could eat your dinner off the floor it was so clean".

cuckoo

Boskowski wrote: »

I mean you have to start somewhere and personally I must say to anyone who falls out of college at the age of 21 and snubs their nose at 25k that they have a sense of entitlement indeed.

It's 22k, not 25k. And what has age that the nurse 'falls' out of college got to do with it?

And i'll say it again, I 'started' in the first year of the course, working unpaid on the wards. By the end of the degree I'll have worked for 81 weeks - 45 unpaid and 36 at less than minimum wage. I'll have very much 'started'.

KDII

cuckoo wrote: »

My favourite is "sure, when the nuns ran the hospitals you could eat your dinner off the floor it was so clean".

Just this week I was informed:

We need to get the matrons back. Put the fear of god in the new nurses and there was none of this budget deficit or MRSA then apparently.
Nurses are wild.. You're hungover nurse aren't you? Out chasing boys all night. You look wrecked. nurses are all wild.
You're just a machine operator (using a dinamap)
A three day week? That's a doddle. I didnt actually design the roster like and iv still worked 26 hours of the last 48 thank you..
You don't have a face that could carry of a nursing cap anyways.

This was very off topic but cathartic..

Boskowski

cuckoo wrote: »

It's 22k, not 25k. And what has age that the nurse 'falls' out of college got to do with it?

And i'll say it again, I 'started' in the first year of the course, working unpaid on the wards. By the end of the degree I'll have worked for 81 weeks - 45 unpaid and 36 at less than minimum wage. I'll have very much 'started'.

Age has a lot to do with it. And experience or moreso lack of it.

I'm not a nurse but I can tell you that I was pretty useless right out of college and so are pretty much all the people I see coming out of college right now.
You really learn the job on the job and sorry but I think one should actually earn their wage. There is no entitlement for a young gun straight out of training to walk straight into a made cushy bed of 30k+. Especially not in a country that's broke.

Bit of a tiger cub syndrome there by any chance?

cuckoo

Boskowski wrote: »

Age has a lot to do with it. And experience or moreso lack of it.

I'm not a nurse but I can tell you that I was pretty useless right out of college and so are pretty much all the people I see coming out of college right now.
You really learn the job on the job and sorry but I think one should actually earn their wage. There is no entitlement for a young gun straight out of training to walk straight into a made cushy bed of 30k+. Especially not in a country that's broke.

Bit of a tiger cub syndrome there by any chance?

I'm flattered - the anti ageing cream must be working as I'll be in my mid thirties when I graduate. So, not quite a cub. This is a change of career, and a second degree, so I'm well aware how useless most graduates are right out of college. In most graduate schemes it's considered a bonus if the grad can use Outlook and behave themselves in a meeting, and they're very carefully kept away from the customers until they've learned some table manners.

But, in healthcare there is no 'graduate' role. I've been caring for patients since first year. The support and training I'm receiving during my course means that I'll be a capable nurse when graduated. Were you paying attention to the 81 weeks that on placement that I've mentioned twice already in this thread? A 'graduate nurse' is a Staff Nurse and will have their own patient load and get on with it. They will not be working at 80%, giving only 80% of medication or doing 80% of the care for their patients - and so should not be paid at 80%.

KDII

Boskowski wrote: »

Bit of a tiger cub syndrome there by any chance?

Bit passive aggressive there by any chance?

With respect, I'm not sure you fully understand the issue. A nurse's experience is rewarded with incremental rises in pay over years of service. Also a newly qualified nurse is a fully qualified practitioner working at independent level.

The course is fairly gruelling to get through. Just this week iv worked 35 hours and am completing a 8,000 word paper for Monday. That's fairly standard for us for the final year of college. It's not something you pass through in some kind of pleasant haze of extra-curricular activities and socialising. It's really challenging.

Also it would take years for a nurse to earn a basic salary in excess of 30k. What is being offered with this scheme is just over 10 euro an hour.

Boskowski

cuckoo wrote: »

I'm flattered - the anti ageing cream must be working as I'll be in my mid thirties when I graduate. So, not quite a cub. This is a change of career, and a second degree, so I'm well aware how useless most graduates are right out of college. In most graduate schemes it's considered a bonus if the grad can use Outlook and behave themselves in a meeting, and they're very carefully kept away from the customers until they've learned some table manners.

But, in healthcare there is no 'graduate' role. I've been caring for patients since first year. The support and training I'm receiving during my course means that I'll be a capable nurse when graduated. Were you paying attention to the 81 weeks that on placement that I've mentioned twice already in this thread? A 'graduate nurse' is a Staff Nurse and will have their own patient load and get on with it. They will not be working at 80%, giving only 80% of medication or doing 80% of the care for their patients - and so should not be paid at 80%.

Fair enough I hear you. At the same time, while maybe a mature graduate you're still a relative beginner in your job.

Plus, what about the thing with the broke country and the need to reduce disproportionate wages?

I said it before on this thread. The situation is just not the same anymore and the government will have to address the deficit somehow. We just can't afford to pay people significantly more than the European average. In fact we never could.

If we're talking cuts I'd be all for fair cuts starting at the top, but the top has too much clout and they'll fight tooth and nails, too. Our political class is one of cowards unfortunately and they will never choose the fair way, they will choose the way they think they'll get away with.

cuckoo

Disproportionate compared to where? Lower cost of living in the Uk and the NHS pays a starting salary of €25,579 - their nurses train for 3 years instead of the 4 here and are supported with an NHS bursary throughout their course and pay no fees.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/graduate-nurses-earn-twice-as-much-abroad-3353774.html

And with this experience Boskowski values so very much, the HSE salary scale for new entrant Staff Nurses or Midwives of five years experience is €32,523 base pay. Still very much below the average industrial wage.

Boskowski - I do agree with you on the cowardice of our political class.