HMV going into administration

Defiler Of The Coffin

Hogzy wrote: »

I think we have a lot of consumer rights. I think your misreading what im getting at

I know what you're getting at, business is tough and that there are rules. Still, that doesn't mean it can't be fair. I believe HMV acted in bad faith on this occasion and I think that the grandad was right to do what he did. HMV did receive money from him after all

Hogzy wrote: »

What do you suggest? That people with vouchers should be paid before employees and suppliers?

There needs to be serious reform around vouchers, certainly there needs to be more consumer protection in place.

Hogzy

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

There needs to be serious reform around vouchers, certainly there needs to be more consumer protection in place.

What do you suggest be done? The only option is to rank voucher holders in the same class as employees and people with tort claims. IMO that is absolutely mad. The only thing we can do is make people aware of their rights/responsibilities so people can make informed choices and know what they are getting themselves into.

TBH im glad this HMV thing has brought awareness to this voucher issue and the vulnerability that consumers can find themselves in when buying vouchers.

Defiler Of The Coffin

Hogzy wrote: »

What do you suggest be done? The only option is to rank voucher holders in the same class as employees and people with tort claims. IMO that is absolutely mad. The only thing we can do is make people aware of their rights/responsibilities so people can make informed choices and know what they are getting themselves into.

TBH im glad this HMV thing has brought awareness to this voucher issue and the vulnerability that consumers can find themselves in when buying vouchers.

Good point, it's a difficult problem to solve but surely something can be done to minimise the risk to consumers? Perhaps insist that such schemes be taken away from the model whereby consumers are simply unsecured creditors? Force companies to hold voucher money in bonds?

True about the awareness issue, I was never a big fan of store vouchers, there's no way I'd touch them after this

Gauss

When you buy vouchers you are taking on risk of default, we really need to educate people. Also get rid of vouchers, they're stupid.

Hogzy

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

Good point, it's a difficult problem to solve but surely something can be done to minimise the risk to consumers? Perhaps insist that such schemes be taken away from the model whereby consumers are simply unsecured creditors? Force companies to hold voucher money in bonds?

True about the awareness issue, I was never a big fan of store vouchers, there's no way I'd touch them after this

Voucher holders are already unsecured creditors. It would be way to awkward for companies to hold voucher money in bonds and would probably cost more money in the long run. It is a tough issue but the only ways I can see to prevent this in the future is the increase of awareness or else the total abolition of vouchers.

Remember that you are also vulnerable with One4All Vouchers and 3V cards. If 3V goes out of business then your money is gone. Nothing is more valuable than cash.

These are from T&C's of the 3V site (prepaid credit card)

18 Suspension of Service
(a) The Bank may, through the Service Provider, at any time, and from time to time, where due to
technical, security, maintenance, administration or other reasons, as specified in Condition 20,
temporarily suspend use of a 3V Customer Card or 3V Voucher for such period as the Bank may
require without incurring any liability to the 3V Customer Cardholder.
(b) The Bank or the Service Provider shall not, under any circumstances, be liable to You for any loss
or damage, whether direct or indirect or for consequential loss or any inconvenience, arising in
respect of any suspension of the use of a 3V Customer card (as contemplated in condition 18(a)
above), and/or for any failure by any Retail Partner to provide a 3V Voucher to You.

Lightbulb Sun

http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/irish-grandfather-defies-hmv-voucher-133805131.html Fair play to that guy

scudzilla

Lightbulb Sun wrote: »

http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/irish-grandfather-defies-hmv-voucher-133805131.html Fair play to that guy

Why did he say he'd post the voucher? Why not leave it in HMV along with the 6euro? This guy is an idiot and a thief

Eathrin

Fair play to THIS guy.

"The news of HMV going into administration has been the talk of everyone - especially so if you work at a record shop. Banquet boss JT wrote his immediate thoughts about it on the Banquet tumblr."

We're very aware and sad that people are looking at losing their jobs, and we're concerned about the effect HMV's possible closure may have on physcial releases in general. However, one gripe many have is the current situation where gift cards are now no longer valid at HMVs. Whatever happened, its certainly no fault of the person who got someone a Christmas gift, and its unfair on someone to not be able to use their credit.

We wanted to find a way to make these gift tokens valid at our store. So this is the idea we could come up with. We'll offer anyone with a valid HMV gift card 50% off in our store up to and including Sunday 20th January.*

We want people to come and experience our record shop. To see its not all doom and gloom for music retail nor for the high street in general. To come and re-embrace physical releases and the experience of buying them. Pop into our store at 52 Eden St, Kingston (map) and we look forward to welcoming you.

*There are a few terms and conditions. The offer applies to one single transaction in the physical store only. One transaction may include multiple items. After the transaction the HMV gift card must be handed over. Some products (like gig tickets, pre-orders, sale items, record players and extremely limited releases) will be exempt from the 50% deal. Please note; Deloitte have said that in time the HMV gift vouchers may be useable if and when a new buyer for the chain is found. We will not be able to return surrendered cards. Offer ends on Sunday 20th January 2013. Discount available at the Banquet staff's discretion.

Not only will he gain boost in sales from this move, he will gain repeat business, a good reputation for having sympathy on customers and the potential to re-use surrendered vouchers if a new owner(HMV) honours the vouchers later on.

It would be a wise move in my opinion for any remaining record shops here to take.

Lightbulb Sun

scudzilla wrote: »

Why did he say he'd post the voucher? Why not leave it in HMV along with the 6euro? This guy is an idiot and a thief

He bought the voucher. He's entitled to the credit from it. They saw it and refused it. Not his fault and HMV have been highly unethical on the voucher issue. The six euro thing is a fair point and that remains to be seen. I don't believe he is a thief personally and as far as the vouchers credit?, absolutely not.

scudzilla

Lightbulb Sun wrote: »

He bought the voucher. He's entitled to the credit from it. They saw it and refused it. Not his fault and HMV have been highly unethical on the voucher issue. The six euro thing is a fair point and that remains to be seen. I don't believe he is a thief personally and as far as the vouchers credit?, absolutely not.

At what point did he try and use the voucher in the store? Did he even have it on him? Article just says he was dismayed to hear they wouldn't be accepted.

So i could just walk into HMV today (if they were open), take 100euro's worth of gear and tell them i'll send them the voucher.

THAT is theft

Lightbulb Sun

scudzilla wrote: »

At what point did he try and use the voucher in the store? Did he even have it on him? Article just says he was dismayed to hear they wouldn't be accepted.

So i could just walk into HMV today (if they were open), take 100euro's worth of gear and tell them i'll send them the voucher.

THAT is theft

Read the third paragraph. He had it with him.

SilverScreen

grudgebringer wrote: »

60% of the 69% were bought to rip and place on download sites :P

I highly doubt it as it's cheaper and more convenient to download from iTunes to place on download sites.

And it's even cheaper to download from a download site to place on another download site.

Stench Blossoms

The grafton lounge are accepting HMV vouchers

https://twitter.com/graftonlounge/status/291868347581218816

knucklehead6

Just wait till tmrw's paper so.

Grand-Thief sues Grafton lounge for not honouring his voucher.....

ilovesleep

In a few years time a lot of shops in our towns and cities here in Ireland will be dead or dying due to online buying and people will only have themselves to blame for ghost towns for outsourcing for their supplies. There's very valid arguements of course for their online shopping - price for one. The hassle of getting in and out of the town/city and parking - another saving there. My sister perfers to buy online too for savings whereas I differ there I perfer going into an actual shop. Like I wanted to buy something and I was checking out the argos catalogue but my sister told me about amazon and I'd get it much cheaper there (she bought one a few weeks beforehand). I went into argos anyways. The saving she made on hers was 6 euros. She spent 31, I spent 37 on something very similiar but not the same. I'd prefer to spend locally like that. If everyone bought online we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot with more unemployment and less jobs.

seamus

Stench Blossoms wrote: »

The grafton lounge are accepting HMV vouchers

https://twitter.com/graftonlounge/status/291868347581218816

There seem to be a couple of food places doing this very generous offer.

Considering that plenty of people will have HMV vouchers of €100+, they could be giving away massive amounts of food.

Hogzy

ilovesleep wrote: »

In a few years time a lot of shops in our towns and cities here in Ireland will be dead or dying due to online buying and people will only have themselves to blame for ghost towns for outsourcing for their supplies. There's very valid arguements of course for their online shopping - price for one. The hassle of getting in and out of the town/city and parking - another saving there. My sister perfers to buy online too for savings whereas I differ there I perfer going into an actual shop. Like I wanted to buy something and I was checking out the argos catalogue but my sister told me about amazon and I'd get it much cheaper there (she bought one a few weeks beforehand). I went into argos anyways. The saving she made on hers was 6 euros. She spent 31, I spent 37 on something very similiar but not the same. I'd prefer to spend locally like that. If everyone bought online we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot with more unemployment and less jobs.

I dont think so. If we save money online we have more money to spend elsewhere. It just means the jobs in high street retail will go somewhere else.

seamus

Amazon have large premises in Dublin and Cork employing hundreds of people.

So money spent online is not money being sent abroad and causing the loss of Irish jobs.

Basq

Stench Blossoms wrote: »

The grafton lounge are accepting HMV vouchers

https://twitter.com/graftonlounge/status/291868347581218816

Hmmm.. how do they know how much is on a voucher?

Thought HMV only issued gift cards with no indication of balance until they scan.

Basq

Basq wrote: »

Hmmm.. how do they know how much is on a voucher?

Thought HMV only issued gift cards with no indication of balance until they scan.

I was wondering that myself - I guess it involves an element of trust and honesty.

I can't see it being abused at all.

seamus

Basq wrote: »

Hmmm.. how do they know how much is on a voucher?

Thought HMV only issued gift cards with no indication of balance until they scan.

The Stag's head are doing a similar deal, but basically 1 voucher == lunch. Not a great deal if your voucher is worth €200, but for a €50 voucher it's better than a kick in the arse, especially if they let you throw in 2 courses & a couple of glasses of wine.

Allyall

As Basq said, I'm guessing it's not easy to read those with any card reader, if it was, then surely they couldn't have turned them off/disabled them the other day.

Or are they like Shopping Centre Credit cards, i.e. most shops can read them.?

The stags head offer would probably be best if you had €20 - €30. Still an expensive lunch but i wouldn't use a €50 voucher on lunch.
Unless you were going for lunch on Saurday or Sunday and made the most out of it.

iguana

Hogzy wrote: »

I dont know why they are sitting in? They are jumping the gun a bit. I highly doubt their payday was today tbh. Employees are preferential creditors and would rank above voucher holders. In terms of priority it usualy goes

I've heard that the long term staff are paid usually paid monthly but they were not paid for December, so are owed about 6 weeks money at this point. If that's true they can absolutely not be accused of jumping the gun.

Dravokivich

Hogzy wrote: »

I dont know why they are sitting in? They are jumping the gun a bit. I highly doubt their payday was today tbh. Employees are preferential creditors and would rank above voucher holders. In terms of priority it usualy goes

Used to work in HMV back in 2006, back then payday was weekly and overnight Wednesday to be avail Thursdays.

readyletsgo

Posted this this morning in the Games section but will repost here

This is all terrible news, I feel so sorry for all the Irish staff this morning! I hope they get their wage next week and get redundancy very soon.

But, on a lighter note, when this was announced on Monday evening, I rang my credit card company to find out how I would go about getting my money back for the voucher I had gotten the day before (sunday). Lady in the credit card company adviced she did not know how all this was going to play out BUT she would start the process of getting the money back for me but wouldnt be able to process it at all at the time as they were in the dark as much as anyone else in Ireland.

So this morning I just happened to check my credit card and saw a full refund had been done! BRILLIANT!

So my advice to anyone who paid with credit card, get in contact with your CC company and they will help you out.

Sorry if this is no help to the guy with the €200 voucher, I do hope they will offer something to you in the next days/weeks coming to cover it.

Not great news for the poor staff but I'm glad I got my money back, phew.

Hogzy

Sober Lane in Cork are offering one Lunch in exchange for one voucher regardless of value.

melekalikimaka

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

You really believe they've done nothing wrong? Issuing vouchers in the full knowledge they could soon be rendered worthless? Terms and Conditions don't just magic away basic business ethics, I don't believe the grandad was fully in the right to do what he did but IMO HMV have a done a terrible thing, I have no sympathy for them at all after this

i dont think you are grasping the notion that morals and the law don't ride shotgun together

Lyaiera

melekalikimaka wrote: »

i dont think you are grasping the notion that morals and the law don't ride shotgun together

He hasn't said anything incorrect. He said that they've done something wrong (they have, ethically.) And the people stealing from the shop aren't completely right either (they stole.)

You can be ethically entirely correct and legally wrong, and ethically entirely in the wrong and legally in the clear.

And you're the one saying other people don't understand. :rolleyes:

Hogzy

Lyaiera wrote: »

He hasn't said anything incorrect. He said that they've done something wrong (they have, ethically.) And the people stealing from the shop aren't completely right either (they stole.)

You can be ethically entirely correct and legally wrong, and ethically entirely in the wrong and legally in the clear.

And you're the one saying other people don't understand. :rolleyes:

Ethics are subjective and therefore inconsistent.

I feel for voucher holders though. But i have more sympathy for the staff who are going to loose their jobs. Others rank above voucher holders in this debacle.

Lyaiera

Hogzy wrote: »

Ethics are subjective and therefore inconsistent.

Unless they're objectively derived from humanity with natural rights.

But I'm not too sure HMV are bothered by that.