Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

spikethedog

squod wrote: »

Better link here. A 10% cut in the administration budget would of course cause ''uproar'' and ''mass strike action''. An 11% cut in administration might cause some kind of stroke among union leaders.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/2010stats.pdf

So, from your own source.
Scroll down to section 4, summary and financial, table A3.
The figures you need are there.

Godge

squod wrote: »

Better link here. A 10% cut in the administration budget would of course cause ''uproar'' and ''mass strike action''. An 11% cut in administration might cause some kind of stroke among union leaders.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/2010stats.pdf

Sorry, I don't understand your point. Those statistics show that for 2010 the administration of social welfare costs 2.8% of the total budget. Since then the number of people working in that Department have gone down while the budget has gone up (one of the only places it has) meaning that the administration costs as a percentage of the total budget have gone down (demonstrating extra productivity from the civil servants). That productivity gain may well have been as much as 10%.

spikethedog

Godge wrote: »

Sorry, I don't understand your point. Those statistics show that for 2010 the administration of social welfare costs 2.8% of the total budget. Since then the number of people working in that Department have gone down while the budget has gone up (one of the only places it has) meaning that the administration costs as a percentage of the total budget have gone down (demonstrating extra productivity from the civil servants). That productivity gain may well have been as much as 10%.

Why is squod arguing the figures that are in the links he/she provided?
Maybe my point was misunderstood.

Godge

spikethedog wrote: »

Why is squod arguing the figures that are in the links he/she provided?
Maybe my point was misunderstood.

I don't know or understand what he is arguing.

You said that a 10% cut across all payments would save €2.1 billion. He said it was nowhere near that and then later dragged unions and administration cost into it.

But if you take off the administration costs (and even taking the 2011 figures which are a smaller) the cut required to save €2.1 billion is a cut of 10.3% meaning you are basically correct and accurate.

waster81

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry the last 2/3 debates I have seen on the likes of VB and on PK the union lads never once questioned this 116 billion over the next 30 years for pensions.

Or the €1billion we spent to ensure AIB bank employees have their pension hole filled

squod

Godge wrote: »

Sorry, I don't understand your point. Those statistics show that for 2010 the administration of social welfare costs 2.8% of the total budget. Since then the number of people working in that Department have gone down while the budget has gone up (one of the only places it has) meaning that the administration costs as a percentage of the total budget have gone down (demonstrating extra productivity from the civil servants). That productivity gain may well have been as much as 10%.

I don't understand yours. Are you seriously suggesting the total manpower cost of the social welfare dept is €590,000? Pay & pension contributions for 7,000 odd people? Have I misread the paragraph?

I have no proof of any improvements in efficiency in that dept. Can I ask you how may process improvement engineers work for or are contracted to the dept? How many lean six sigma black belt leaders or equivalent?

squod

Godge wrote: »

I don't know or understand what he is arguing.

You said that a 10% cut across all payments would save €2.1 billion. He said it was nowhere near that and then later dragged unions and administration cost into it.

But if you take off the administration costs (and even taking the 2011 figures which are a smaller) the cut required to save €2.1 billion is a cut of 10.3% meaning you are basically correct and accurate.

I asked someone to explain this to me. So far that hasn't happened. I'm not asking for a miracle here people.

ardmacha

I don't understand yours. Are you seriously suggesting the total manpower cost of the social welfare dept is €590,000?

Did you seriously do a calculation and come up with €590,000 instead of €590m and post this on boards in a serious forum?

Gumbo

squod wrote: »

I asked someone to explain this to me. So far that hasn't happened. I'm not asking for a miracle here people.

Open your eyes and read the posts then.

spikethedog

squod wrote: »

I asked someone to explain this to me. So far that hasn't happened. I'm not asking for a miracle here people.

The maths is there for you in my post, no. 149.
I don't know what bit you can't understand.
10% of just over €20 billion is just over €2 billion.

squod

ardmacha wrote: »

Did you seriously do a calculation and come up with €590,000 instead of €590m and post this on boards in a serious forum?

lol. I didn't do the bluddy calculation :rolleyes:. It's in the link I posted.

Total Adminstration 592,640

spikethedog

squod wrote: »

lol. I didn't do the bluddy calculation :rolleyes:. It's in the link I posted.

Oh for God's sake.
Will you look at the top of the table.
3 zero's at the end of each figure in the table.

The grand total for 2010 is 20,848,230,000

A billion is one thousand million, e.g. 1,000,000,000

So total administration is €592,640,000

squod

spikethedog wrote: »

Oh for God's sake.
Will you look at the top of the table.
3 zero's at the end of each figure in the table.

The grand total for 2010 is 20,848,230,000

A billion is one thousand million, e.g. 1,000,000,000

So total administration is €592,640,000

lol. I didn't do the bluddy calculation :rolleyes:. It's in the link I posted.

Again..........

Administration 592,640

I'm quoting a pdf from 2010.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/2010stats.pdf

Vizzy

spikethedog wrote: »

Oh for God's sake.
Will you look at the top of the table.
3 zero's at the end of each figure in the table.

The grand total for 2010 is 20,848,230,000

A billion is one thousand million, e.g. 1,000,000,000

So total administration is €592,640,000

I think maybe we need a Public Servant to sort this out-Maths teacher maybe?:D

creedp

fliball123 wrote: »

Yes I appreciate that but if my son has anything badly wrong with him under our VHI he will be entitled to a private room with out having to be lying on a trolley.

He would only get a private bed if one is available, otherwise he would lie in a trolley just like a public patient. The funny thing is the private patient is for the most part treated in the same hospital by the same nurses, radiologists, doctors as the public patient. In fact nearly 50% of all private patient admitted from A&E end up n a public bed as not enough private beds available. Only difference is the consultant gets paid twice to treat the private patient and so in the case of planned admissions fast tracks the private patient into the hospital over the heads of public patients who often have a higher clinical need for the same care. This is what you are paying private health insurance for in Ireland.

Sarn

squod wrote: »

Again..........

I'm quoting a pdf from 2010.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/2010stats.pdf

You have misread the table. The column where you quoted 592,640 is in €000, which is €592,640,000.

spikethedog

squod wrote: »

Again..........




I'm quoting a pdf from 2010.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/2010stats.pdf

You've gotta be taking the p1ss.

spikethedog

Sarn wrote: »

You have misread the table. The column where you quoted 592,640 is in €000, which is €592,640,000.

It's tough going this.......there's no telling him/her.

squod

spikethedog wrote: »

It's tough going this.......there's no telling him/her.

This figure puts the mean rate of pay in that department something like twice the mean rate of pay in the PS?

Please don't get defensive. I'm only asking.

€592,640,000/7,000 = ?

Mean rate of pay in the PS is €900 per week.

Gumbo

squod wrote: »

This figure puts the mean rate of pay in that department something like twice the mean rate of pay in the PS?

Please don't get defensive. I'm only asking.

€592,640,000/7,000 = ?

Mean rate of pay in the PS is €900 per week.

Admin costs will include pay, and equipment used including paper, printers, postage envelopes etc.

What's the point of your posts anyway, shave 10% of the total bill and that is 2.1 Bn.

Vizzy

squod wrote: »

This figure puts the mean rate of pay in that department something like twice the mean rate of pay in the PS?

Please don't get defensive. I'm only asking.

€592,640,000/7,000 = ?

Mean rate of pay in the PS is €900 per week.

Aw this is getting tiresome.

Answer me this squod,do you think that the DSP don't pay electricity bills,buy a bulb every now and again or God forbid need to use the toilet ?

squod

Vizzy wrote: »

Aw this is getting tiresome.

Answer me this squod,do you think that the DSP don't pay electricity bills,buy a bulb every now and again or God forbid need to use the toilet ?

Listed in the breakdown. People don't do administration in a toilet.


No, I don't believe a 10% cut in €21bn budget will yield a €2.1bn saving.

Gumbo

squod wrote: »

Listed in the breakdown. People don't do administration in a toilet.


No, I don't believe a 10% cut in €21bn budget will yield a €2.1bn saving.

You should of paid attention in maths class.

Anyway guys, either report the post or ignore. Do not feed the troll.

squod

kceire wrote: »

You should of paid attention in maths class.

Anyway guys, either report the post or ignore. Do not feed the troll.

Cut the budget and the budget will over run. This is the case time and time again . Application of a proper management system would do more.

If you don't want to read my posts and think I'm trolling then don't read my posts.

thebman

daveyeh wrote: »

Ok, so you're saying these guards and hospital employees who do a good job and work very hard should be left alone in the cpa2, but also should have their wages cut to hire more of them??? :rolleyes: Some reward for their efforts.

Rewards are forfeit when your employer is bankrupt...

That is when you learn that life isn't always fair.

Farmer Pudsey

squod wrote: »

This figure puts the mean rate of pay in that department something like twice the mean rate of pay in the PS?

Please don't get defensive. I'm only asking.

€592,640,000/7,000 = ?

Mean rate of pay in the PS is €900 per week.

Seems very high even if it includes Admin costs look like some money could be saved here. This is the problem with the PS ver hard to get straight figure out of it. For instance it is very hard to get total wage bill for departments or for section of departments. it is also hard to get staffing levels, hours they work and holidays. This is a significant issue. Government seem slow to give out details. HSE is an example it is impossible to get a breakdown of staff no and area's where they work. If any large company worked on such a basis where nobody seems to know exact levels of pay, amount of overtime worked expenses it owners would sack the managers especially if they were paid very well.

In this case the tax payer who is the owner is being kept in the dark and fed sh#te. So then you get people using raw data.

On the above figure lots of PS workers posting here are always on about the semi state staff dragging up there average pay however when we look at this example the average cost/employee is 84.5K. Now either they are above the PS average or else 35K/staff member is spend on travel, subsistance and other admin costs which seem quite high and if that is the case there seem to be a case to sees if any of that money is wasted and could be saved there by reducing PS costs with out hitting pay.Is this kind of cost an issue right accross the PS maybe we could save 1-2 billion by cutting waste like this if it exists.

However if it is mainly a paybill then we have another issue

squod

Shure all the mathmaticians here have already picked up on that high figure of 84k per employee.

10% cut in pay across 2.1m people would of course lead to serious knock-on effects also. A rise in unemployment probably, and so an increase in SW payments.

Godge

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Seems very high even if it includes Admin costs look like some money could be saved here. This is the problem with the PS ver hard to get straight figure out of it. For instance it is very hard to get total wage bill for departments or for section of departments. it is also hard to get staffing levels, hours they work and holidays. This is a significant issue. Government seem slow to give out details. HSE is an example it is impossible to get a breakdown of staff no and area's where they work. If any large company worked on such a basis where nobody seems to know exact levels of pay, amount of overtime worked expenses it owners would sack the managers especially if they were paid very well.

In this case the tax payer who is the owner is being kept in the dark and fed sh#te. So then you get people using raw data.

On the above figure lots of PS workers posting here are always on about the semi state staff dragging up there average pay however when we look at this example the average cost/employee is 84.5K. Now either they are above the PS average or else 35K/staff member is spend on travel, subsistance and other admin costs which seem quite high and if that is the case there seem to be a case to sees if any of that money is wasted and could be saved there by reducing PS costs with out hitting pay.Is this kind of cost an issue right accross the PS maybe we could save 1-2 billion by cutting waste like this if it exists.

However if it is mainly a paybill then we have another issue

Administrative costs are 2.8% of the total in 2011. I have done a quick check internationally and looked at a number of papers that cover insurance companies and their administrative costs as a percentage of claims.

Some of them have admin costs as high as 20-25% of claims. Other systems like Medicare are around 3-5%. The 2.8% seems reasonable by international standards.

http://cnsnews.com/blog/douglas-kellogg/not-so-fast-obamas-every-study-has-shown-medicare-claim-leaves-out-key-details

The above reference is one that would be critical of costs of public services but still has our percentage cost looking good.

I wish people would do some research rather than spouting the last idea that came into their head.

Farmer Pudsey

Godge wrote: »

Administrative costs are 2.8% of the total in 2011. I have done a quick check internationally and looked at a number of papers that cover insurance companies and their administrative costs as a percentage of claims.

Some of them have admin costs as high as 20-25% of claims. Other systems like Medicare are around 3-5%. The 2.8% seems reasonable by international standards.

http://cnsnews.com/blog/douglas-kellogg/not-so-fast-obamas-every-study-has-shown-medicare-claim-leaves-out-key-details

The above reference is one that would be critical of costs of public services but still has our percentage cost looking good.

I wish people would do some research rather than spouting the last idea that came into their head.

Godge I am just analysing a post from another contributor. And as i refered to in my post it is nearly impossible to get decent data out of the Irish PS. Personnlly I do not have hours to spend reserching every detail. However I am able to look at figure and analysis them. If the figure Squod gives are right it is hard to believe that 35K/head over the average PS pay is spend adminstrating social welfare. I just looked at the figure and analysed them I did not investigate them rather I commented on them

Take the HSE or Education both big spending departments it is impossible to get a decent breakdown of figure that include wages, administration costs, teachers/nurses/doctors costs etc. For instance in the HEs there seems to be a choice by managment to use agencies to fill gaps in service where twenty years ago the used tempory staff which they managed themselves to fill the gaps. However they now seemed to have outsourced this and still have large amounts of management in place.

And yes I am no fan of insurance companies wheather it is health, car or life insurance companies as well as the pension industry which require a big shake up but that is another thread sometime. As far as I know thecost of admin in the health service is on par with insurance companies however it is nearly impossible to get correct figures.

squod

Godge wrote: »

Administrative costs are 2.8% of the total in 2011. I have done a quick check internationally and looked at a number of papers that cover insurance companies and their administrative costs as a percentage of claims.

Some of them have admin costs as high as 20-25% of claims. Other systems like Medicare are around 3-5%. The 2.8% seems reasonable by international standards.

http://cnsnews.com/blog/douglas-kellogg/not-so-fast-obamas-every-study-has-shown-medicare-claim-leaves-out-key-details

The above reference is one that would be critical of costs of public services but still has our percentage cost looking good.

I wish people would do some research rather than spouting the last idea that came into their head.

Average pay from Banking & Insurance sectors is €50k.